Maths and God

[kojikun]

Thing is, why does this really matter if Pi repeats itself or not? As it is a supposedly infinite figure then surely a repeat must be there somewhere, there are afterall only 10 integers that are individually different (0-9).

Doesnt really matter. The whole point, however, to this thread, is the theological implications of finding something impossible in the fundemental laws of the universe, something so improbably as to be impossible. Something so remarkable that it would demand that God exists. Nay, not god, something greater, for even god cannot make 2+2=5, or the circumference of a circle really equal 3x its radius no matter how hard he try.

OMG! e^(i*Pi) + 1 = 0! THat pr0v3z g0d exists!!!!11111!

Hahaha ;D

[Xenophobe3691]

What would happen if we found it? We'd get flooded by the collective creaming of every human on the planet with some damning evidence of a greater power behind the creation of the universe.

Uh oh...Time to waterproof my computer...

[PrinceofLowLight]

What exactly is so improbable that it's impossible? That link you showed proved further that there's everything in an infinite string. It's the whole monkeys on typewriters thing. You don't need God to exist for patterns to exist in a random string.

[kojikun]

What exactly is so improbable that it's impossible? That link you showed
proved further that there's everything in an infinite string. It's the
whole monkeys on typewriters thing. You don't need God to exist for
patterns to exist in a random string.

number-1, pie isnt random as its a very simple ratio (circumference/radius),
number-2, nothing is improbably at all about finding something in, say, pi,
but if we found the same things in the same places in pi, e, phi, etc etc etc,
thats impossible. it doesnt just rely on chance, it relies on the entirety of the
universes logic to be fundementally not natural, and not rational.

The implication is that math itself, the science of numbers, is not just
happenstance, which is entirely illogical. i mean, if 4(1 - 1/3 + 1/5 - 1/7 ...)
is not just a natural progression but DESIGNED, then it implies something
bigger then god, bigger then anything. It implies something so amazing and
fantastic that everything thats ever meant anything has instantly become
irrelevant. It would be as if 1^n = 2, where n equals some magic number.
It would be like finding the root of a negative number. Its entirely illogical
and yet if it were real it would be something more important then all of life.

[Darth Wong]

I finished reading contact yesterday, and the story had a neat little thing:
Messages in Math, patterns in Pi, etc. The idea was that there were hidden
messages very deep in Pi, such that if you looked hard enough it would
actually say something. Early in Pi was found patterns of 1s and 0s when pi
was in base-11 math. The 1s and 0s ended up forming an image of a circle.

That's a pattern created by the method of interpretation, not by the concept of Pi itself. Pi is nothing more than a ratio, and 1s and 0s cannot possibly form an image of a circle unless you've decided to employ some particular scheme of visualization.

This is like trying to interpret the cylindrical shape of my dog's shit as some kind of transcendental message.

My questions is, what if we really found such a pattern? Something so
improbable as to be damned impossible in an infinite amount of time, let
alone in something to fundementally real and not-random as pi. Or e, or
some other transcendental number.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that a pretty good approximation of e is found somewhere in Pi. Why would that mean anything?

What would that mean if something so fundemental as Pi contained a message, an actual message? What would that imply for us as humans, and about the history of the universe? That math, something so fundementally universal and intangible, was designed.

Of course math was designed! It was designed by humans, remember? That's the key to your little question right there.

[Sriad]

e^(i*Pi) + 1 doesn't =0!!! Don't make me start kicking heads in!

[Sindai]

He's right, it equals 0, not 0!.

[kojikun]

That's a pattern created by the method of interpretation, not by the concept of Pi itself. Pi is nothing more than a ratio, and 1s and 0s cannot possibly form an image of a circle unless you've decided to employ some particular scheme of visualization.

Yes, you'd need some obvious method of interpretation. but say it was something like.. non-1-0 numbers dispersed equally throughout the binary portion in successive fashion. Or something.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that a pretty good approximation of e is found somewhere in Pi. Why would that mean anything?

No, cause e is just a number, guaranteed to pop up in the infinity of pi. As would a simple shape. But it cannot be pure chance for the same shape (represented by a string of numbers) to show up in e and a host of other transcendental numbers in the same place.

Of course math was designed! It was designed by humans, remember? That's the key to your little question right there.

Yes, but you can't change the ratio of a circumference to a radius on a plane, or that a triangles interior angles (again on a plane) total 180 degrees. You can't change 1^n = 1, or anything so fundementally simple as that. Thats my whole reason to ask the question, that the foundations of the universe, not of our idea of math but the FACTS of the universe, are not just there in happenstance but are in some way more then just facts.

[Darth Wong]

No, cause e is just a number, guaranteed to pop up in the infinity of pi. As would a simple shape. But it cannot be pure chance for the same shape (represented by a string of numbers) to show up in e and a host of other transcendental numbers in the same place.

If that happens, one would probably conclude that there's some connection between them. Why that connection would have to be God is something that has never been explained by the kooks. There's a connection between the shape of all stars too, but that's not God either.

Yes, but you can't change the ratio of a circumference to a radius on a plane, or that a triangles interior angles (again on a plane) total 180 degrees. You can't change 1^n = 1, or anything so fundementally simple as that.

But you can express them differently. If we're using hexadecimal math, then everything is different. That's the whole problem with numbers games; they take an arbitrary choice (a certain base of numbers) and act as though coincidences in that arbitrary choice imply something magical.

Thats my whole reason to ask the question, that the foundations of the universe, not of our idea of math but the FACTS of the universe, are not just there in happenstance but are in some way more then just facts.

Suppose e and pi are connected in some way; so what? That is a mathematical curiosity, not proof of God.

[kojikun]

Thank you Mike. So far yours are the best responses.

[Xenophobe3691]

Yep, our base 10 system's only one version of math out there. It's the one that comes most intuitively to us, but there are whole other ways of counting out there that took us millennia to figure out, but could come to others as natural. For example, Imaginary numbers

[Xenophobe3691]

Thing is, why does this really matter if Pi repeats itself or not? As it is a supposedly infinite figure then surely a repeat must be there somewhere, there are afterall only 10 integers that are individually different (0-9).

Doesnt really matter. The whole point, however, to this thread, is the theological implications of finding something impossible in the fundemental laws of the universe, something so improbably as to be impossible. Something so remarkable that it would demand that God exists. Nay, not god, something greater, for even god cannot make 2+2=5, or the circumference of a circle really equal 3x its radius no matter how hard he try.

OMG! e^(i*Pi) + 1 = 0! THat pr0v3z g0d exists!!!!11111!

Hahaha ;D

THERE IS NO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN COUNT ON IT

[Xenophobe3691]

Thing is, why does this really matter if Pi repeats itself or not? As it is a supposedly infinite figure then surely a repeat must be there somewhere, there are afterall only 10 integers that are individually different (0-9).

Doesnt really matter. The whole point, however, to this thread, is the theological implications of finding something impossible in the fundemental laws of the universe, something so improbably as to be impossible. Something so remarkable that it would demand that God exists. Nay, not god, something greater, for even god cannot make 2+2=5, or the circumference of a circle really equal 3x its radius no matter how hard he try.

OMG! e^(i*Pi) + 1 = 0! THat pr0v3z g0d exists!!!!11111!

Hahaha ;D

THERE IS NO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN COUNT ON IT

God HAS NEVER DONE A SINGLE THING TO ME IM STARTING TO FEEL LIKE I HAVE NO PURPOSE ON THiS EARTH. a bullet to the brAIN SOUNDS GOOD!

[Rye]

God HAS NEVER DONE A SINGLE THING TO ME IM STARTING TO FEEL LIKE I HAVE NO PURPOSE ON THiS EARTH. a bullet to the brAIN SOUNDS GOOD!

Er...? You sound like you've broken dude...

[Howedar]

I would say, "Cool!"

[kojikun]

I would say, "Cool!"

Good answer.

[Durandal]

It is an assumption that pi is endless and never repeats. infact, it kind of is self negative, because if its ridiculously long (say, 10^[10^100] digits) we can never know either way.

You're underestimating the growth of computing power. If Pi is in fact just ridiculously long, we'll know eventually.

We have never observed Pi to repeat, and we cannot pin it down to a non-repeating number. It is a safe assumption, based on these facts, that it is infinite and never repeats.

[kojikun]

You're underestimating the growth of computing power. If Pi is in fact just
ridiculously long, we'll know eventually.

Well one day we MIGHT come across an end to pi. Then again, calculating pie is done by adding and subtracting successively smaller numbers odd numbers. Thats not necessarilly what pi is, but feh, who cares.

We have never observed Pi to repeat, and we cannot pin it down to a
non-repeating number. It is a safe assumption, based on these facts, that it
is infinite and never repeats.

Yep. But still, finding something in a seemingly random or atleast chaotic nonrandom number would be.. interesting, to say the least.

[Durandal]

Heh, I remember when I had a brilliant idea for how to derive Pi. I thought, "Hey, why not just do an integral on the function defining a semi-circle of radius 1 and multiply it by two?!" I was about halfway through converting the function into polar coordinates before I realized how stupid I was.

[kojikun]

Heh, I remember when I had a brilliant idea for how to derive Pi. I thought, "Hey, why not just do an integral on the function defining a semi-circle of radius 1 and multiply it by two?!" I was about halfway through converting the function into polar coordinates before I realized how stupid I was.

All that work for nothing

[Sriad]

He's right, it equals 0, not 0!.

[found his complex calculator]Er, so it does. How about that.

[Dark Hellion]

You realize somewhere in Pi is logical proof that god does not exist?
Kinda funny huh?

[Xenophobe3691]

Reading Contact, I can see that this question was ripped directly from that book. Kojikun, the Tunnel Builders are pissed at you..