Shoot To Wound?

[Ace Pace]

http://www.theonion.com/onion3516/nypd_apologizes.html

is this a joke or what? I know the onion dosnt report true things, but why are you linking this here.

[Montcalm]

http://www.theonion.com/onion3516/nypd_apologizes.html

is this a joke or what? I know the onion dosnt report true things, but why are you linking this here.

If its true then the guy was asking for it,how many people were shot by cops cause they were too stupid to listen to the words "Put your hands up"

[Sea Skimmer]

Why don't cops shoot to wound? I've read several news reportd of cops putting 16 bullets in someone threatening them with a screwdriver. Come on...pop someone in the kneecap, they'll drop the weapon.

Good luck hitting such a small target and doing so without bursting the artery right behind it. Course your crippling them for life anyway.

Officers should only be firing when there life or another person's life is at risk, if that is the case then shooting to kill is required. If you begin emphasizing shooting to wound then your also going to lower the threshold at which officers are willing to fire since after all its only to wound them. Bad and very risky move.

Surely, cops are TRAINED in the proper use of the firearm. Shooting someone in a non-vital area would seem to ME much more preferable than killing someone. And what the hell are those batons for?

Shoot them in a non-vital area and your not going to incapacitate them, which is an absolute necessity if you're in a position to be shooting the first place. In fact police are trained, and generally part of that training is to NOT try foolish things like shooting to wound or to try and shoot a weapon out of someone's hand. Batons are for dealing with dealing with people who are unarmed but still fight.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Gee, I wonder if that satirical article from one of the web's leading satire news sites is real or not...

That aside, I heard someone on SB.com had a run in with the police when he and a mate had their air rifle out in a local park, some local called the cops and they arrived and told the guys to freeze. One of them stupidly ran away, but no shots were fire I believe.

If a cop in the US says "freeze!" then you do as you're fucking told, they're armed for a reason and they don't carry plastic bullet guns, they carry the real McCoy, that is, the ones that are meant to kill.

There are many incidents of police firing at targets that don't seem much of a threat. In the UK, there have been times when ART squads (Armed Response Teams, code SO19) have been called to tackle knife wielders and people with fake guns and often filled the guy with 9mm long before he could get an innocent. Sometimes it can be accidental, other times it can be a quick and decisive event that was required to keep people safe.

In the end, I'm glad the police exist and risk their necks for us, I have many mates with family as officers (even one in CID) and since firearms aren't common here for normal Bobbies on the Beat, it seems just as bad as many other nations when faced with loons.

[Baron Scarpia]

One of the police agencies down in the Los Angeles area developed a paintball that is filled with a liquid that is so foul smelling most people double over and retch. Giving the cops time to wrestle them down.

The Pentagon is working on non-lethal means of taking out enemy combatants, including guns that fire a sticky ooze that solidifies into a foam rubber on contact. They could then just bathe opposing soldiers with the goo and capture them. I really hope this becomes reality and is feasible to use in combat. Less people killed in wars, the better.

[neoolong]

One of the police agencies down in the Los Angeles area developed a paintball that is filled with a liquid that is so foul smelling most people double over and retch. Giving the cops time to wrestle them down.

The Pentagon is working on non-lethal means of taking out enemy combatants, including guns that fire a sticky ooze that solidifies into a foam rubber on contact. They could then just bathe opposing soldiers with the goo and capture them. I really hope this becomes reality and is feasible to use in combat. Less people killed in wars, the better.

They have those in Snow Crash.

[Steven Snyder]

I don't think cops have the right to kill someone just because it looked like they might be reaching for a gun. Unless they obviously have a gun, or a gun-shaped object held pointing through their jacket, or whatever, they cops should be prosecuted.
If a cop is so jumpy they need to kill someone because of the shadow of a threat, they should quit.

Have I got a great career opportunity for you...

If you think you can do it better, I suggest you do it and change the world. But if you aren't willing to step into their shoes, don't bother telling them how you would do their job differently.

[Master of Ossus]

Hmmm...after reading all your responses, I must assume most of you would have sympathy for L.A. cops who are demonized for shooting a homeless woman who lunged at a cop with a screwdriver, or the young woman in a car who was woken up, and her immediate response was to grab the gun sitting beside her?

My job isn't to sympathize with officers, but it is to present a balanced portrayal of the situation. I tend not to have much sympathy for people who are killed or injured in the process of doing illegal things.

What about the guy that reached for his wallet (allegedly) in New York, while surrounded by cops, who continually ordered him to show his hands? Bruce Springsteen wrote a song about it ("American Skin - 41 Shots")

Again, if you disobey officers, I tend not to have much sympathy for you. I also don't tend to look at the number of shots fired, since almost all officers fire their entire magazines when confronted with a situation they feel is dangerous.

I'm not saying that officers never over-react to things around them in their every day lives, and there are doubtless hundreds of examples of wrongful shootings, but you can't necessarily villify an institution when people who are genuinely concerned for their safety open fire.

I can tell you, in L.A, according to the L.A. Times and the local news, the people that are continually on these programs disagree with you, and call the cops killers and racists. Thoughts?

In LA the natural response is to decry the police as being racist, etc. etc. Frankly, the media encourages the response. Look at the OJ Simpson trial. Remember that the vast majority of people in areas of Los Angeles in which the vast majority of these incidents take place are minorities, largely uneducated, and have a tight sense of community. When you have someone attacking you, your first response is to make sure that you can protect yourself. When someone sees someone that they've watched grow up get shot, their first reaction is to blame the shooters. They know that little Joey would never have attacked an officer, unless the officers had done something to him, first.

Now, granted, the reputation is not entirely undeserved. The LAPD has had serious problems in the past with such issues, and their initial attempts to curb the abuse were doomed to failure (at one point, any complaint against an officer led to immediate suspension, leading to a shocking 8,000% increase in complaints), but they also have a really tough job to do, and one that can be unusually dangerous, at times.

[TrailerParkJawa]

One of the police agencies down in the Los Angeles area developed a paintball that is filled with a liquid that is so foul smelling most people double over and retch. Giving the cops time to wrestle them down.

The Pentagon is working on non-lethal means of taking out enemy combatants, including guns that fire a sticky ooze that solidifies into a foam rubber on contact. They could then just bathe opposing soldiers with the goo and capture them. I really hope this becomes reality and is feasible to use in combat. Less people killed in wars, the better.

They have those in Snow Crash.

These are not really useful in combat per se. More like crowd control. The Marines tried the sticky guns in Somalia IIRC. They didnt work well at all. They were best suited to laying down the foam as a barrier to prevent people from getting too close to the Marines as opposed to capturing someone. More testing is needed I suppose.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Pentagon is working on non-lethal means of taking out enemy combatants, including guns that fire a sticky ooze that solidifies into a foam rubber on contact. They could then just bathe opposing soldiers with the goo and capture them. I really hope this becomes reality and is feasible to use in combat. Less people killed in wars, the better.

Actually its unlikely to ever be deployed on a wide scale if at all, there is to great risk of someone suffocating on the stuff and its intended for riot situations not combat. You do not fight hostile troops with rifles using a ten foot range glue spray.

[Montcalm]

The Pentagon is working on non-lethal means of taking out enemy combatants, including guns that fire a sticky ooze that solidifies into a foam rubber on contact. They could then just bathe opposing soldiers with the goo and capture them. I really hope this becomes reality and is feasible to use in combat. Less people killed in wars, the better.

Actually its unlikely to ever be deployed on a wide scale if at all, there is to great risk of someone suffocating on the stuff and its intended for riot situations not combat. You do not fight hostile troops with rifles using a ten foot range glue spray.

Yeah and in the hands of an idiot,like the famous Sargeant Pepper in Vancouver a few years back there could be tragic consequences

[Durandal]

It's simple. Popping someone in the knee cap is a more difficult shot than popping him in his torso. In other words, the chances of stopping the guy are greater by plugging him in the chest, and many perps (drunks, junkies) won't feel the pain if you shoot them in the leg and simply keep coming at you. The officer has no choice but to shoot lethally.

Most officers shoot for the least lethal but still lethal area possible (avoiding arteries and injuries that result in major blood loss) so that the perp can survive if an ambulance gets on the scene quickly enough.

[Mad]

Why don't cops shoot to wound? I've read several news reportd of cops putting 16 bullets in someone threatening them with a screwdriver. Come on...pop someone in the kneecap, they'll drop the weapon.

Surely, cops are TRAINED in the proper use of the firearm. Shooting someone in a non-vital area would seem to ME much more preferable than killing someone. And what the hell are those batons for?

As said, hitting a kneecap or other non-vital area is much harder. If a cop is shooting, he or she feels threatened and probably nervous due to that fact. They're in no condition to make a careful shot to a knee.

As a real-life example... a detective once opened fire on my dog (as a puppy... a rather large puppy) because he felt she was dangerous. He fired three times, likely to kill, resulting in two grazing hits, and a miss. Nothing vital was hit, and she wasn't slowed down at all, though she had to spend a bit of time healing afterwards. Once animal control arrived, and called at her right after the shooting, she immediately obeyed and went over as nice as could be.

Now, if a cop couldn't hit reliably enough to even slow down a medium-large dog when shooting to kill, how is he gonna hit a smaller, non-vital location on a human to as to slow the human down? Granted, the detective probably wasn't a very good shot -- for which I'm thankful in this instance -- (my mom overheard a couple cops discussing his accuracy after said event) but the idea is still pretty clear.

[FOG3]

Police officers are well known to not be that good of shots. There are of course those who are good and snipers, but your average Police Officer doesn't practice that much and isn't an overly skilled shooter. Give them a break.

[Kitsune]

A oproblem is also if a police officer shoots to wound, it becomes malicious wounding. Shooting center of mass is not shoot to kill but instead shoot to stop.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Metal Storm's O'Dwyer Law Enforcement Handgun prototype...

4 barrels, 2 lethal stacks, 2 "bean-bag" stacks.

Oh yes, firing beanbag rounds at a rate of more than 100,000 rounds per minute per barrel?

Well, its non-lethal, but my god is the dickhead on the receiving end isn't going to be a happy person.

Not to try and derail the thread or anything, but what's with this Metal Storm crap anyway? Hey, I've got an idea: let's make guns that'll empty a clip faster than anyone can possibly let go of the trigger! Wheee! I must be missing something, what's the advantage over conventional firearms here?

[omegaLancer]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SyntaxVorlon:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TrailerParkJawa:
Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And if they're black, it can also be a wallet, or a spatula, in front of the person's own house.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If the cops tell you to put your hands in the air and you reach into your jacket instead, then quite frankly, you deserve every bullet you get. While I do sympathize with stories of black harassment in the states, most of these "unwarranted police shooting" stories tend to fall into this category: people refusing to obey the cops even when the guns are drawn.

Hint: when a cop has his gun out, it's because he is in a highly agitated state and concerned for his own safety. Treat him as you would a live grenade.

Problem is that the police officers were all in plain cloths and the man was searching for his keys when they approach. Would they have had their guns drawn and approach the gentleman in question if he was not black? Did he know that they were police and not robbers?

The fact of the matter these policemen were part of a special anti crime unit created and were under pressure to make arrest. Their mind set was not the one of the standard policeman on the beat.

I been approach by a policeman in a similar situation, in my case the officer simply ask " Can I help you sir, is there a problem?". no guns drawn.

Let not pretend that there is not a factor of bias that color the interaction of police with the Black Community, I not black ( but from spain) and I can easily see that this is a fact.

Meanwhile I have seen the police deal with an arm clearily insane individual who was arm with a shotgun, and they did their best not to shoot. He was white. They manager to take the gun away from him. In this case I wouldnot have faulted them at all if they did shoot the individual.

Clearly the USA is a place where it is easy to get firearms, and The police have the right to defend themselves it a dangerous job, but they also have to be careful that their interaction with the community at large is not color by Bia or fear. No one should be shot on their doorstep because they are searching for their keys, or that the cops would not give them the same benefit of the doubt that they would give a lighter color skin individuals.