gays in the military

[kojikun]

oh shush mike. you and your infinite knowledge. grr.

[Zed Snardbody]

The main issue with gays in the millitary is that it most people aren't used to it and dont want to be around it. Personaly I have no trouble with gay men or women, I have a great many homosexual friends. I personaly find anal sex ichy, but thats where I draw the line at "its wrong" terriroty. Between you and me, I think god has bigger issues to worry about then people having butt sex.

What most people in the military find uncomfotable is the idea of being with a flamer. Thats were alot of anti gay feelings come from. Like many have said, who knows if your gay unless you go and tell them. But when you have people walking around shoving their ideas down your throat it gets aggravating. Fine you like guys and want equal rights and all that shit, I dont give a damn, go tell a congresman or something. I dont care and cant do anything about it. Most people who belive that homosexuality is a sin aren't looking to go around and tell every gay perosn they're a sinner. He probably just doesnt want to see it or deal with it. So he'll stay away from gay bars and appreciate not having a flamboyant man come up to him and hit on him.

The other main problem that people have with gays in the military is being in an intimate envirnment with people that could be attracted to them. My friend and I would always get into this debate. My main point was that how would you feel, as a woman, about the idea of being made to shower with 100 men. You know that 95% of those men are gay, but 5% aren't. Do you still want to be naked around them? It makes one self consious. And it puts the homosexual in an unfair position. Eyes wander, it happens. I went to homecomming with my best friend, she wore a low cut dress. Shes a good looking woman but we have no intrest in each other, but behold, it happened, I looked down and enjoyed it. She noticed and things were weird for a bit. We got over it because we're friends, but imagine if its with a stranger. Your not going to feel comfortable around them.

and those are my points. The majority is not unable to deal with the issues that the minority presents.

[Z-Ha-Dum]

I've also heard of a cult of homosexuality that dates back to Spartan traditions being preserved in the military.

Are you referring to The Sacred League of ancinet Greece (the city state of Thebes)? The league was an elite military unit of Thebes composed of homosexual lovers. The rationale in forming that unit was that if gay lovers fought side by side they would fight to the death (which was true). The brilliant strategist Epaminondas used them effectively against Sparta.

I wonder if that would work today

[EmperorMing]

-Snip-

I can agree with this; spouting off about your orientation while in the service and it being different from the accepted norms can paint you into a corner that you don't need to be in. I know I wouldn't feel to comfortable being hit on by another service man...

Geez! Keep a sock in it and shut up about it. Like Jegs said, there are service peeps that do an entire carrer in the Military and don't broadcast it. No reason to act like your on some crusade or something...

[kojikun]

Are you referring to The Sacred League of ancinet Greece (the city state of Thebes)? The league was an elite military unit of Thebes composed of homosexual lovers. The rationale in forming that unit was that if gay lovers fought side by side they would fight to the death (which was true). The brilliant strategist Epaminondas used them effectively against Sparta.

I wonder if that would work today

See, thats my whole arguement FOR homosexuality in the military. People say that if a gay guy is in the military he'll look at an enemy soldier and think "Oh hes so gorgeous I cant kill him!" but thats nonsense, thats just straight guys projecting what theyd do if they saw a hot chick pointing a submachine gun at them. If you have gay guys in the military, theyll look at their commerades and say "These men are who I love, they're why I'm fighting, because someone wants to kill them, and I won't let that happen".

[Knife]

Meh, the older I get the softer my opinion gets on the issue. Macho issues asside, there is a fairness issue that they still haven't overcome with the women in the military.

When I was in the grunts, I was crammed into a barracks room with three to four other people. Some times, though not me, there would be upto six personel stuffed into a room. In most old school barracks, there is a common bathroom and open showers. Now in those barracks, upto 30 people would have to share the shitters and the showers.

Not too far from there, in a support unit, a vertually empty barracks was inhabitted by four females (both Navy and Corps). Each had their own room, each had on average two toilets and three showers.

Now if gays openly enter service, do they get there own barracks to either protect them or to perserve their privacy? Will they feel as uncomfortable in the open showers as the straight guys will? And if so is that enough to get them their own pad? Will their numbers be enough to have to stuff themselves into rooms like staight counter parts? Or will there be resentment because it is percieved, rightly or wrongly, that they get special treatment.

I used to be hard core against such things, but my opinion is slowly changing. Yet they still have alot of issues to adress before all barriers should be dropped.

[kojikun]

Now if gays openly enter service, do they get there own barracks to either protect them or to perserve their privacy? Will they feel as uncomfortable in the open showers as the straight guys will?

Would you want your barracks and showers to be combined with the girls showers so you can all shower naked together? Yes? Theres your answer.

And if so is that enough to get them their own pad? Will their numbers be enough to have to stuff themselves into rooms like staight counter parts? Or will there be resentment because it is percieved, rightly or wrongly, that they get special treatment.

The resentment, I suspect, will come about because of perceived sexual attraction to the straight guys, which they dont like.

[Baron Mordo]

The resentment, I suspect, will come about because of perceived sexual attraction to the straight guys, which they dont like.

Which is why they should make homosexuality compulsory in the military.

Like in Sparta.

[Wicked Pilot]

In principle I don't think gays should be told they cannot serve their country, but when it comes to the practicality of their integration, I have my reservations.

Let me quote for you former Air Force First Sargeant Rod Powers' take on the logistical problems that may result from this:


Commander: Well, Top, the new policy is in effect. From now on it's "Don't Ask, but You can Tell." It's up to us to try and make the new policy work.

First Sergeant: Shoud be no problem, sir. After all, I can't see where being gay would affect anyone's duty performance.

Commander: That's the attitude! I'll leave it in your hands to make it work.



(One week later)

Airman Jones: Sir, I've got a problem.

First Sergeant: What's up, Jones?

Airman Jones: It's my roommate. He's Airman Thompson.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Jones: Well, he's gay, Sir. He told me so.

First Sergeant: We briefed you on the new policy. Gay service people are no different from anyone else. Airman Thompson does just as good a job as you do.

Airman Jones: Yes sir, but he keeps staring at me when I shower or change clothes and stuff. It's really creeping me out.

First Sergeant: I can see how that might bother you. I'll have a talk with him.



(Later, that same day)

First Sergeant: Airman Thompson, we've got a problem.

Airman Thompson: Yes sir?

First Sergeant: Your roommate claims that you keep staring at him when he undresses. He feels uncomfortable with this.

Airman Thompson: Oh, no sir! I'm not looking at him. He's not even my type.

First Sergeant: Okay. Just do me and your roommate a favor. When he undresses, make sure you look in another direction. Give his privacy rights a little break, okay?

Airman Thompson: Sure sir! No problem.



(Five days later)

First Sergeant: We've got a problem, Jones. Your NCOIC says this is the 2nd time you've been late for work this week. What's going on?

Airman Jones: I'm sorry sir, but I can't sleep at night. Now, every time I even reach for my zipper, Airman Thompson stares at me and gives me a "wolf-whistle." I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm about ready to smack him.

First Sergeant: No. No. You can't do that. I'll have another talk with him. Don't you even think about harming him. Got it?

Airman Jones: <glumly> Yes, sir.



(Later)

First Sergeant: Thompson, your roommate claims you've been staring and whistling at him. That's sexual harassment, and we won't tolerate it. Understand?

Airman Thompson: I haven't been looking or whistling! He's just lying because he doesn't like homosexuals! Most people in the military don't like us, and they'll lie in a heartbeat!

First Sergeant: Look, you're not the only one that I'm having a problem with in implementing this policy. How about if I move you into a room all by yourself?

Airman Thompson: Sure!



(Two weeks later)

Commander: First Sergeant, we've just received an Inspector General Complaint. It claims that you've given all the homosexuals in the squadron a private room?

First Sergeant: Yes, sir. There were some serious problems developing between them and their heterosexual roommates. I thought it best to get them split up before someone got hurt.

Commander: I understand, but we can't give them special privileges. We don't have enough space to give everyone a single room, and you can't single out the homosexuals as getting a benefit that isn't available to the others. Now, fix it!

First Sergeant: Yes, sir.



(One week later)

Airman Pizaz: Airman Tippy is my girlfriend.

First Sergeant: That's nice. What can I do for you.

Airman Pizaz: Well, she wants to room with me.

First Sergeant: (spitting coffee) You know we can't room a male and female together in the barracks.

Airman Pizaz: Why not? You roomed Airman Thompson and Airman Eckers together.

First Sergeant: So?

Airman Pizaz: Come on, Shirt! Everyone knows they're going together. If Thompson gets to room with his boyfriend, how come I can't room with my girlfriend?

First Sergeant: Well.....I guess that makes sense. Okay, I'll approve it.



(Two weeks later)

Commander: (Storming into office, blowing steam out of his ears) What in the Hell are you doing, First Sergeant?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: (Face turning blue) The Wing has just received a slew of Congressional Complaints about you from concerned parents! It appears as if you are allowing their young sons and daughters to shack up in my barracks. Is that true?

First Sergeant: Well, yes Sir....but.....

Commander: (Having a kiniption) No buts!!!!!!! Not in my Air Force!!!!!! People don't shack up in Military Barracks!! Is that clear???

First Sergeant: Yes Sir.

Commander: (Jumping up and down) Fix this, now!!!



First Sergeant (Thinking): How in the World do I fix this?

(After much thought)

I know! I'll room male homosexuals with female heterosexuals, and female homosexuals with male heterosexuals!



(One week later)

Commander: (Blood pressure rising like a steam boiler) First Sergeant, what in the blazes is going on in my squadron?

First Sergeant: Sir?

Commander: Every single male in the barracks now claims he's homosexual, and wants to move in with a heterosexual female!

First Sergeant: Well, Sir, I guess the studies were wrong. Maybe it is possible for one to change their sexual orientation.

[kojikun]

*snort* I love you Pilot

But I would say one thing to the straight guys who dont like being howled at, "Get proof not claims, or shut up and be objectified you pussy." or even better "Shut up you wuss. If you have to take it up the ass by burly men with foot long dicks for your country then youll do so cause this is the army. You get shot at you fucking cunt, stop being "creeped out" by howls. Pussy."

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

ROTFLMMFGDQQAO Pilot! Ya Nailed it!!!

[Wicked Pilot]

But I would say one thing to the straight guys who dont like being howled at, "Get proof not claims, or shut up and be objectified you pussy."

That's not possible. The current policy regarding sexual harrassment is that all reported cases must be investigated. That of course brings in a lotta shit for any accusation. And if the charge gets out, the person who is pointed at for the harrassment will usually be judged by public opinion as guilty regardless of the facts of the case. The impact on unit morale here is devestating, usually resulting in (assuming nothing happened) transfers, which cost the military in terms of manpower and money.

or even better "Shut up you wuss. If you have to take it up the ass by burly men with foot long dicks for your country then youll do so cause this is the army. You get shot at you fucking cunt, stop being "creeped out" by howls. Pussy."

Would you also say that to female airmen who are harrassed by male airmen? If a straight guy was harrassing a homosexual guy because of his orientation, would you tell him something similiar to that too?

[Wicked Pilot]

ROTFLMMFGDQQAO Pilot! Ya Nailed it!!!

This is not my work. It was written by retired Air Force First Sargeant Rod Powers over at US Military at About.com. It does do a pretty fair analysis of the problems incountered if homosexuals were allowed to serve openly.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

ROTFLMMFGDQQAO Pilot! Ya Nailed it!!!

This is not my work. It was written by retired Air Force First Sargeant Rod Powers over at US Military at About.com. It does do a pretty fair analysis of the problems incountered if homosexuals were allowed to serve openly.

Ah ok. Either way I was roflmao when I saw it.

[Enforcer Talen]

Ive a very simple solution.

work them so hard the bastards wont remember their names, let alone who they go for.

course, the marines have been doing that for yrs =^_^= hehe.

[kojikun]

That's not possible. The current policy regarding sexual harrassment is that all reported cases must be investigated. That of course brings in a lotta shit for any accusation. And if the charge gets out, the person who is pointed at for the harrassment will usually be judged by public opinion as guilty regardless of the facts of the case. The impact on unit morale here is devestating, usually resulting in (assuming nothing happened) transfers, which cost the military in terms of manpower and money.

Well it sounds more like an issue with homophobes not the gay guys themselves.

Would you also say that to female airmen who are harrassed by male airmen?

If she was being hit on and didn't like it, yes. Harrassment my ass, you're military, some numbnut calling you sexy is the LEAST of your problems. What a fucking pussy military we've got when people are more concerned about "Hey baby nice ass" then they are about bullets to the head.

If a straight guy was harrassing a homosexual guy because of his orientation, would you tell him something similiar to that too?

Harrassment because of sexuality is different from harrassment about getting laid. If I say to you, Pilot, that you're a stupid breeder, thats not the same thing as if I said to you, "Cmon, lemme suck your cock".

[Wicked Pilot]

Well it sounds more like an issue with homophobes not the gay guys themselves.

That doesn't make the problem go away. Most men would have problems living in close quarters with homosexuals just like most women would have probems living in similiar conditions with men. Maybe in a more enlightened society this would not be a problem, but this is not it.

If she was being hit on and didn't like it, yes. Harrassment my ass, you're military, some numbnut calling you sexy is the LEAST of your problems. What a fucking pussy military we've got when people are more concerned about "Hey baby nice ass" then they are about bullets to the head.

You would destroy a unit with that type of attitude. Any commander who implimented such policy would quickly see their command lose moral, productivity, and pretty soon their commander.

Harrassment because of sexuality is different from harrassment about getting laid. If I say to you, Pilot, that you're a stupid breeder, thats not the same thing as if I said to you, "Cmon, lemme suck your cock".

It's harrassment is it not? *You* might not mind certain forms of harrassment, but you are not every member in the military, nor or you even a single member. Don't assume to talk for them.

[jegs2]

Wicked Pilot's example, while amusing, is also somewhat accurate and indicative of the military mind. There exists a gulf between the civilian and military community -- a whole set of standards exists within the military that simply would not be accepted in the civilian society (except perhaps North Korea), so it is difficult, if not impossible, to explain why allowing openly homosexual men (or women) to serve in the military would be so disasterous. Unfortunately for those of us in the military, it is civilian leadership that makes such decisions and then tells us to implement them...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Wicked Pilot's example, while amusing, is also somewhat accurate and indicative of the military mind. There exists a gulf between the civilian and military community -- a whole set of standards exists within the military that simply would not be accepted in the civilian society (except perhaps North Korea), so it is difficult, if not impossible, to explain why allowing openly homosexual men (or women) to serve in the military would be so disasterous. Unfortunately for those of us in the military, it is civilian leadership that makes such decisions and then tells us to implement them...

Most of the actual problems with women serving in the military, I'd humbly submit, could be solved if they were required to take contraceptives (preferably an IUD) for the duration of their service. They are, after all, volunteers, and I don't think such a requirement to be unreasonable. I also recall posting an article here which suggested that the weight requirements for women in the military led to most of them being nearly at starvation-level diets.

As for homosexuals in the military, however, I'm actually going to agree with you--up to a point. I think at that this moment that homosexuals serving in the U.S. military would be counterproductive to the duties of the U.S. military. This is not the fault of the homosexuals but the nature of the military culture. However, we cannot force that sub-culture to change overnight without detriment to the efficiency of the military; so it simply must be endured until the military is willing to change. I would submit that it is totally normal for the military sub-culture, one of very long traditions, to retain older prejudices for longer than the rest of society. We cannot change them ahead of society: they must follow behind it. This is inevitable, perfectly natural, and something that must simply be accepted, unfortunately. One society changes, the military will follow; until then, trying to force change in the military will just ruin it.

[kojikun]

Then, Pilot, I have to say that military men have severe issues and aren't the right stuff to fight for these states.

[jegs2]

Most of the actual problems with women serving in the military, I'd humbly submit, could be solved if they were required to take contraceptives (preferably an IUD) for the duration of their service. They are, after all, volunteers, and I don't think such a requirement to be unreasonable. I also recall posting an article here which suggested that the weight requirements for women in the military led to most of them being nearly at starvation-level diets.

Wow, that would be a hard sell! Certainly would put the pregancy issues to bed (no pun intended). But, the problems within a unit caused by romances would persist, and indeed they do persist in CS and CSS units, in which females are already integrated. I'll give this example:

• Male Soldier A and Male Soldier B like Female Soldier X. All three are in the same platoon and squad.
  
  Female Soldier X takes a shine to Soldier A and becomes his sexual partner.
  
  Soldier B feels snubbed and becomes angry. While required to work with Female Soldier X, he snarls at her at treats her with contempt. His anger at being snubbed turns into hatred for Soldier A, with whom he is also supposed to work. He spreads rumors that Female Soldier X is a slut who screws anything with two legs. Female Soldier X gets wind of the rumor and becomes dejected.
  
  The entire squad is now full of strife and is for all practical purposes combat ineffective.

The above is just an example, and certainly such instances are not always the case, but they often are. Romantic relationships between soldiers of equal rank are not forbidden.

[Wicked Pilot]

Then, Pilot, I have to say that military men have severe issues and aren't the right stuff to fight for these states.

I'm sure you can find a recruiter in your local area.


I won't say anything.

[Darth Wong]

Then, Pilot, I have to say that military men have severe issues and aren't the right stuff to fight for these states.

You're suggesting that the men who serve in our military are not "the right stuff" for doing the job because they are accustomed to a fraternity where there is assumed to be no possibility of intra-unit sexual relationships?

They might not be socially progressive, but that doesn't mean they're no good for the job at hand.

[kojikun]

You're suggesting that the men who serve in our military are not "the right stuff" for doing the job because they are accustomed to a fraternity where there is assumed to be no possibility of intra-unit sexual relationships?

Nah not at all. I don't know about "our" military, cause you're in canada im not (much to my dismay) so i cant say for you. But the american military guys who cant handle being hit on by other guys have issues. They shouldnt be defending a country if they cant live in it.

They might not be socially progressive, but that doesn't mean they're no good for the job at hand.

Oh theyre fine at killing, but that doesnt mean that theyre the right stuff. Theres more to it then just being willing to fight, you have to be fighting for a better result, you have to fight for something worth fighting for, and in that is a future where people arent so anal retentive. tho thats my ideal, as well as my definition of right stuff.

[jegs2]

The type of folks you are defining as the "right stuff" are not rushing to their nearest recruiter to enlist...