Astrology fucking debunked after 50 year study...

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Lord_Xerxes
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Post by Lord_Xerxes »

Lagmonster wrote:Astrology is crap. All astrology. Mysticism, hell, in general, is crap.

I've seen too many things in my life that claim to be mystical in nature, and it's all turned out to be crap. This is experience talking, folks. I haven't met one person who claimed to be able to experience predictive or mystical or scary phenomena that I couldn't write up to a simple explanation, or at worst, common coincidence. Even the 'non-scammers' (or in other words, the terminally deluded).
I'm going to have to disagree with you. My tarot is always right, every fucking time. It's why I stopped doing it for so long. I didn't want to know if the relationships I was in were going to end up bad. It's the price I would pay for the foresight.

Furthermore, my tarot have a tendency to assert their power to me when they tell me something I don't want to know. For instance, I once drew Transition in a relationship card, (Which means big change, or end, and possibly a new beginning) and I didn't want to hear it. I reshuffled the deck 3 times again, cut it, and bam. Transition. In shock, I repeated. 3 more shuffles, and another cut. Bam. Transition. I think the odds of that happening are ridiculous. There's 78 cards, of which there are 22 Major Arcana (which is what Transition is) and then 4 suits of Minor Arcana making up the rest. If someone could please come up with a forumula to calcuate these odds for 3 triple shuffles, and three cuts, with all those cards, then be my guest.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson

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Post by Chardok »

Lord_Xerxes wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:Astrology is crap. All astrology. Mysticism, hell, in general, is crap.

I've seen too many things in my life that claim to be mystical in nature, and it's all turned out to be crap. This is experience talking, folks. I haven't met one person who claimed to be able to experience predictive or mystical or scary phenomena that I couldn't write up to a simple explanation, or at worst, common coincidence. Even the 'non-scammers' (or in other words, the terminally deluded).
I'm going to have to disagree with you. My tarot is always right, every fucking time. It's why I stopped doing it for so long. I didn't want to know if the relationships I was in were going to end up bad. It's the price I would pay for the foresight.

Furthermore, my tarot have a tendency to assert their power to me when they tell me something I don't want to know. For instance, I once drew Transition in a relationship card, (Which means big change, or end, and possibly a new beginning) and I didn't want to hear it. I reshuffled the deck 3 times again, cut it, and bam. Transition. In shock, I repeated. 3 more shuffles, and another cut. Bam. Transition. I think the odds of that happening are ridiculous. There's 78 cards, of which there are 22 Major Arcana (which is what Transition is) and then 4 suits of Minor Arcana making up the rest. If someone could please come up with a forumula to calcuate these odds for 3 triple shuffles, and three cuts, with all those cards, then be my guest.
A) amazing coincedence. (buy a lottery ticket, you have alot of luck) or
B) You're lying.
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Post by Lord_Xerxes »

Chardok wrote:
A) amazing coincedence. (buy a lottery ticket, you have alot of luck) or
B) You're lying.
It would have to be one hell of an amazing concidence.

Why goal would I have to lie? It's not like it's considered a valid point here anyway, since people are going to readily dismiss it as nonsense. I was stating my observations and opinions, but it surely doesn't mean that everyone else would get the same results, or whatever. I don't have to prove myself to you. You can either believe me or not, but it happened regardless.

edit: I mostly posted it because I disagreed with the notion that all mysticism is crap, ("I haven't met one person who claimed to be able to experience predictive or mystical or scary phenomena that I couldn't write up to a simple explanation, or at worst, common coincidence.")and because I've honestly been curious if someone could come up with a figure for the odds of that happening, since I can't (Math isn't my strong point.) . It's just my opinion. It's not going to change other peoples, and my example isn't proof either. It's just something that happened to me and is one of the reasons that I believe in my tarot. It certainly isn't conclusive proof to show that mysticism or astrology is not crap. On the whole, I agree with the statement that a great portion of it is utter bs.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson

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Post by StarshipTitanic »

You only have a 1.2% of picking the same card each time, just like any card. It doesn't really matter what suit it is.
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Post by Zoink »

Lord_Xerxes wrote: It would have to be one hell of an amazing concidence.
There would be something wrong with the universe if amazing coincidences didn't happen.

The problem with your "evidence" is that it's both selective and subjective. You are only recalling the coincidences that have meaning to you, and the relationship between the cards and events are open to interpretation.
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Post by ClaysGhost »

Astrology's great. The Sun is no longer in the various Zodiac constellations at the times that the astrology columns in the papers say it is (they're usually about a constellation out, and ignore the thirteenth Zodiac constellation) but it still works! Amazing.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

verilon wrote:[ahem] Talk to an astrologist (such as myself), and the greater part of the time, you'll find that the ones that are non scammers also realize that things happen and astrology isn't the defining factor.

~ver
OK, then when is astrology the defining factor or even a minor one?
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Post by haas mark »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
verilon wrote:[ahem] Talk to an astrologist (such as myself), and the greater part of the time, you'll find that the ones that are non scammers also realize that things happen and astrology isn't the defining factor.

~ver
OK, then when is astrology the defining factor or even a minor one?
I worded myself wrong. On a PERSONAL basis, I don't think it has anything to do with it at all. However, some people believe that astrology NECESSARILY determines what a person is going to be like.
Durandal wrote:In other words, you arbitrarily choose which events are determined by the stars and which ones aren't. What happens when your predictions are flat-out wrong? Does that event become one of the latter category?
It is said that all events are chosed for us by Fate. It is also said that the stars are a way of defining what may or may not happen. Now, I'm not a staunch astrologist, though I do read tarot. However, if it's wrong. I, for one, have no problem admitting, "Hey, this might be wrong and may not work." But when it DOES work 9 times out of 10, what conclusion do you expect me to come to?
Chardok wrote:Astrology isn't a factor at all. perhaps the gravitational field fluctuations caused by various celestial bodies aligning has a physiological effect which makes us subconciously more susceptible to making certain choices which affect our future?
(That was my Trekkie explanation! You like that? Of course....I neglected to mention the temporal anomaly...)
-_-" Of course, that is a possibility, but certainly not a likely one. Then again, that's what astrology is all about. [shrugs]

~ver
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Post by Chardok »

/wink ver :)
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Post by HemlockGrey »

I like how horoscopes are never bad. The Inquirer runs 'Bigar's Stars' and under the birthday forecast, it grades the year. I have never seen anything below a B- year.

Just once, I'd like to read 'Your life will suck from this day on. Hardship will daunt your heels and you will reap no reward at the end of it. Your friends will desert you, your family will disown you, and your odds of getting laid are six hundred to one. My forecast: A really fucking bad year.'
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HemlockGrey wrote:I like how horoscopes are never bad. The Inquirer runs 'Bigar's Stars' and under the birthday forecast, it grades the year. I have never seen anything below a B- year.

Just once, I'd like to read 'Your life will suck from this day on. Hardship will daunt your heels and you will reap no reward at the end of it. Your friends will desert you, your family will disown you, and your odds of getting laid are six hundred to one. My forecast: A really fucking bad year.'
Hehe... I've given many tarot readings that don't have exactly a bright outlook. :P

~ver
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

OK, I've got a few honest questions for you, verilon.

-You've said what you believe astrology won't do, but you haven't said what you believe it does do. Can you tell us what exactly astrology is useful for, and it's predictive powers and limitations?

-Secondly, you and Lord Xerxes are into Tarot cards and you've even giving a probability on how often it works for you (9 out of 10 times), while Lord Xerxes has stated that it always works for him. Have you tried doing this under controlled conditions? If not, why not? If they are as accurate and consistant as you say, they should work all the time, shouldn't they?

-Can you explain why no one (to my knowledge) has every succeeded to demonstrate the accuracy of astrology or Tarot under actual controlled conditions?
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Post by Chardok »

Listen to the song Your horoscope (Or something like that) By weird al...it's HILARIOUS! And deadly Accurate, too! :)
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Gil Hamilton wrote:OK, I've got a few honest questions for you, verilon.

-You've said what you believe astrology won't do, but you haven't said what you believe it does do. Can you tell us what exactly astrology is useful for, and it's predictive powers and limitations?
Limitations are resolved by the simple fact that every reading is different. They only go with what your choices are going to follow. In other words, I don't claim to know what your or my future is by means of divination. Instead, I tell you what the likely possibility is given that you continue the path you're on now. Obviously, the further you go, the blurrier and more obscure it gets.
-Secondly, you and Lord Xerxes are into Tarot cards and you've even giving a probability on how often it works for you (9 out of 10 times), while Lord Xerxes has stated that it always works for him. Have you tried doing this under controlled conditions? If not, why not? If they are as accurate and consistant as you say, they should work all the time, shouldn't they?
No.
-Can you explain why no one (to my knowledge) has every succeeded to demonstrate the accuracy of astrology or Tarot under actual controlled conditions?
Too difficult to create controlled conditions. Too many people want or don't want it to work; too many people don't care; too many different places that it could be done. If there were a way tp create a controlled environment as such, I would be glad to test it out.

~ver
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Post by Lagmonster »

The problem with predictive mysticism is that they ain't.

From a skeptic who's actually 'been in the trenches', I've learned that you can't point at much of that stuff and call it predictive, because it treads the lines of obscurity.

What you CAN do is make an example of their methods. I once developed a 'future-telling' methodology where I would eat a banana and drop the peel on the ground, and give someone a reading based on the position of the peel flaps, and claiming it was an African shaman ritual (which should tell you something right away). I was at LEAST as convincing and successful as any tarot reader I've ever met.

Or, as a New Yorker once said, "I've been into many fortune teller parlors and been told many things, but not one has ever told me that I was a policewoman getting ready to arrest them."
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

The findings caused alarm and anger in astrological circles yesterday. Roy Gillett, the president of the Astrological Association of Great Britain, said the study's findings should be treated "with extreme caution" and accused Mr. Dean of seeking to "discredit astrology."
All I can say to that is no and shit.

Astrology is utter superstition. I have never had a single claimed event come true.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

verilon wrote:Limitations are resolved by the simple fact that every reading is different. They only go with what your choices are going to follow. In other words, I don't claim to know what your or my future is by means of divination. Instead, I tell you what the likely possibility is given that you continue the path you're on now. Obviously, the further you go, the blurrier and more obscure it gets.
Geez, where is the mystical part? You don't need psychic powers or Magic cards to do that, you just need a bit of common sense and have enough understanding of social trends to make a general prediction. If that's all divination does, then there is nothing mystical about it. I must be psychic, because I make predictions based on probability and social trends all the time. A-may-zing!
No.
If you haven't, how exactly do you know that there is anything supernatural involved?
Too difficult to create controlled conditions. Too many people want or don't want it to work; too many people don't care; too many different places that it could be done. If there were a way tp create a controlled environment as such, I would be glad to test it out.
Tell me what's involved in reading Tarot or astrology and a test can likely be made. For instance, using Lord Xerxe's example, you can create a test that is aimed on consistantly getting the same result from a reading within a pre-agreed upon tolerence for error, IE get the same major result over and over again with little variation. Such an experiment would be easy to set up.

And please don't give me the tired excuse that I get from people who believe in psychic powers that because such a test would naturally involve a dispassionate party, that their skepticism would fluke the powers involved and thus nothing would happen. It would be all too convenient if such things only worked for people that really really believed in it, and thus is completely untestable.
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Post by Zoink »

Gil Hamilton wrote: Tell me what's involved in reading Tarot or astrology and a test can likely be made. For instance, using Lord Xerxe's example, you can create a test that is aimed on consistantly getting the same result from a reading within a pre-agreed upon tolerence for error, IE get the same major result over and over again with little variation. Such an experiment would be easy to set up.
And if its succesfull you can claim the 1 million dollars from James Randi.

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Post by Zoink »

verilon wrote: Limitations are resolved by the simple fact that every reading is different. They only go with what your choices are going to follow. In other words, I don't claim to know what your or my future is by means of divination.


But if it worked, couldn't you (for example) be able to tell if two people have a relationship or not? So you could be presented with various couples, none will speak (or would speak preset phrases if you *needed* that), and you have to tell if they have a relationship or not. Surely if Tarot cards have any predictive powers you'd be able to see *something* that would tell you this info.

Then, if you claim you are right 75% of the time, there's a statistical amount you can do which will show you are right 75% of the time, with little likelihood of it being by chance.

This is just something I thought of.... but whenever psychics have been presented with a scientific method to determine accuracy, they always fail. They do this by: eliminating selective data (ie. don't ignore failures), eliminate answers (ie. you'll have to answer some kind of concrete answer), limit the subjects ability to leech info from the customer (ie. can't ask leading questions), or play the odds (ie. answers that seem direct, but would apply to most people: "Your significant other sometimes doesn't understand you", "your financial situation is about to change".)
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Post by Baron Scarpia »

Lord_Xerxes wrote: Why goal would I have to lie? It's not like it's considered a valid point here anyway, since people are going to readily dismiss it as nonsense. I was stating my observations and opinions, but it surely doesn't mean that everyone else would get the same results, or whatever. I don't have to prove myself to you. You can either believe me or not, but it happened regardless.
Well, often people lie just for attention, or to "get one over" on people...or, as Creationists often do, they lie for a "greater good," i.e. they lie about something to convince others that something is true that they think others should believe. It's a way of validating one's own beliefs.

Regardless, I suggest you take this remarkable claim to one of many organizations or researchers seeking to verify the existence of the supernatural. Should you and your tarot cards perform this ably in front of such researchers, it could net you $$$ galore (some of these groups have offered reward money for proof of supernaturalness, and I don't see why your consistently drawing the same card wouldn't qualify). You could then establish a very lucrative career as a host of one of those "Beyond" type shows where people seek out physics to contact their dead loved ones.

I've known tons of people who have claimed to have had supernatural experiences, and have sworn up and down what they experienced couldn't have been anything else. I have then done some subtle probing of the details of these experiences. I have found either one of two things:

1) Their stories don't mesh when the details get fleshed out, and it's patently obvious they are bullshitting. Example: In college, an acquaintance, whom we all knew as a little nutty, claimed her family had lived in a haunted house. After getting the details of the occurances, I waited a bit and then ask her a while later to recount it. In doing so, the details changed so ridiculously--with some flat out contradictions--that I realized she was just making stuff up as the went on. It didn't help that much of what she described seems to have been ripped from every old haunted house film in the book.

or

2) they've exaggerated the details in their own minds, unconsciously, to make the events more staggering than they were. When reminded of the true details, their stories come across as much more explicable. This applies to my roommate, who claimed to have seen the specter of a man in his gf's apartment one night. However, the circumstances of the sighting made it apparent it was a figment of his imagination. He had worked for 16 hours straight that day, he hadn't slept well in several days, he had had a couple of drinks that night, and he had recently watched a couple of ghost movies. It all added up to a trick of the mind.

Now maybe you're lying, maybe you're unconsciously exaggerating, or maybe you really experienced it. But even if the later, it could have been a coincidence. Saying your experiences reflected the tarot card readings is a dubious claim, since tarot card readings are pretty vague, and they can also be self-fulfilling to the suggestive. If a tarot card reading says you'll have some sort of relationship trouble and a little while later you break up with your S.O., that doesn't mean a thing, since the overwhelming majority of relationships end that way!
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Post by Baron Scarpia »

Damned Double Post
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Post by Lord_Xerxes »

Zoink wrote:
Lord_Xerxes wrote: It would have to be one hell of an amazing concidence.
There would be something wrong with the universe if amazing coincidences didn't happen.

The problem with your "evidence" is that it's both selective and subjective. You are only recalling the coincidences that have meaning to you, and the relationship between the cards and events are open to interpretation.
Ahem.
It's just my opinion. It's not going to change other peoples, and my example isn't proof either. It's just something that happened to me and is one of the reasons that I believe in my tarot. It certainly isn't conclusive proof to show that mysticism or astrology is not crap.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson

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Post by Lagmonster »

verilon wrote:Too difficult to create controlled conditions. Too many people want or don't want it to work; too many people don't care; too many different places that it could be done. If there were a way tp create a controlled environment as such, I would be glad to test it out.
Oh ho, then!

It's easy to forget how much older and more experienced some of us are when you're just looking at text on a screen.

Here's what you should do: Record every incident you perform of predicting anything. Include the names of the participants, the method used, any particular deviations in procedure, time of day, basics of the environment, or circumstance (drug use, alcohol, extreme hunger or thirst, etc.), the reason for performing the reading (or whatever) and any and all results. Document what, if any, things happen down the road to coincide with each prediction. Do this for, lets say, a month at least, a year at best.

(This is just an example. There may be other factors you would want to control, like performing it in the same location at the same time for the same people, if you can.)

Then submit your findings to SD.net for review. There are a number of reputable scientists on the board, many of whom (like myself) have had the chance to examine other experimental data, and it would be easy to denote any flaws in methodology or interpretation of the results, and see if any reasonable conclusions can be drawn. We may not learn anything at all (mostly with the lack of a controlled environment), but you never know.

On a related note, you have never seen a human being spin yarn like a psychic explaining What Went Wrong.
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Post by Zoink »

Lord_Xerxes wrote: Ahem.
EDIT:

I'm just pointing out that coincidences are often not that amazing, because of my stated reasons.
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Post by Lord_Xerxes »

HemlockGrey wrote:I like how horoscopes are never bad. The Inquirer runs 'Bigar's Stars' and under the birthday forecast, it grades the year. I have never seen anything below a B- year.

Just once, I'd like to read 'Your life will suck from this day on. Hardship will daunt your heels and you will reap no reward at the end of it. Your friends will desert you, your family will disown you, and your odds of getting laid are six hundred to one. My forecast: A really fucking bad year.'
Happens quite frequently when I read my cards, or do them for my best friend. It's not fun to read the bad new, or tell them, but it happens.
And please don't give me the tired excuse that I get from people who believe in psychic powers that because such a test would naturally involve a dispassionate party, that their skepticism would fluke the powers involved and thus nothing would happen. It would be all too convenient if such things only worked for people that really really believed in it, and thus is completely untestable.
Well, then maybe it's untestable then, because that's another factor that I believe in. I'm not saying that it's the case with everyone, because I don't honestly know. It's just in my experience, that I find when I try to do a reading for my skeptic friend, the results just don't come up. I'm sorry if you think that's a "tired excuse" by those are my experiences. I've mainly only done readings for myself, my best friend Joey, and my other best friend Jason. And Jason is highly skeptical of them. In the case with Joey and myself, the results come up. But Jason's seem always off.

Why? Well, personal I feel, and maybe Ver will agree, that it has something to do with the energy of the person. (know I know that people are going to bitch about this and start flamming me, and I'd like to ask that you guys take it with a grain of salt, because it's my personal belief, and I know that you don't feel the same). It's why I've found that alot of the people I know do not let other people touch their tarot cards directly, because they feel that their energy is imprinted on the cards from use, and mixed the energies of another person can skew your own readings. Which is also the reason why alot of people I know that do other readings for other people have more than one deck of cards, so they can use them for other people. When I do other people's readings, I don't let them touch my cards. My girlfriend on the other hand, seems to have no trouble letting other people touch her cards. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The same goes for my method of doing a reading. Normaly I just focus on a question, ask it, and turn a card. A lot of people do particular spreads, where they lay cards out in a pattern, and the positions have relation to something (IE, this card is for your current influences, this card is your strengths, this card is your past influences, and so on). When I do Joey's readings, I use a typical spread. But when I do my own, I ask and turn. It's pretty routine, none the less. I always suffle three teams before I start, and always cut the deck twice. I always have a lit candle nearby, and I'll only do it in a silent room.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson

"Don't fuck with a Jedi Master, son..." -M.H in J.A.S.B.S.B
Achieved ultimate Doom (post 666) on Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:38 pm
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