Is the Roman Catholic Church to blame for African AIDS?

[Durandal]

If they'd follow the damn rules, they wouldn't get sick, excepting the odd case where somebody gets nailed by a bad transfusion.

What rules? The ones that Catholic missionaries lay down? Who gave them any authority to dictate others' sexual lives to them?

Sorry, but it's not like my heart exactly bleeds for somebody who hears, "Don't do this, it's dangerous," and does it anyway.

So, when the possibility of a compromise is perfectly acceptable -- "You can keep having sex, but use a condom, as well" -- do you feel sympathy for the poor, uneducated people who know nothing of this compromise which would allow them to continue their sexual habits while helping to stop the epidemic? Do you feel sympathy for them when efforts to educate these people about condoms and safe sex are actively stifled by self-righteous missionaries?

Or, do you simply continue to ride your moral high horse, proudly waving your Catholic flag around, preaching, "Better to suffer and die on Earth than in the Eternal Lake of Fire!"?

[Stormbringer]

That's other problem. The corrupt governments and the lack of democracy in several countries.

But one thing is to give out money, which will end up in the pockets of a few. The other is actually sending people there with enough support to really make a difference.

The corruption and constant war is responsible for nearly all of Africa's problems. If they'd stop killing each other long enough to drag themselves out of the stone age, they'd be a lot better off in general.

So, when the possibility of a compromise is perfectly acceptable -- "You can keep having sex, but use a condom, as well" -- do you feel sympathy for the poor, uneducated people who know nothing of this compromise which would allow them to continue their sexual habits while helping to stop the epidemic? Do you feel sympathy for them when efforts to educate these people about condoms and safe sex are actively stifled by self-righteous missionaries?

A huge chunk of the HIV infections occur through prostitution. In many cases the only way girls can contribute to their families survival or survive on their own is to become a hooker. They can't use a condom even though most know there is a damn good chance they could contract some STD. And it's the same thing in India and most of Southeast Asia.

And take one extreme case from Africa. In a 1996 outbreak of Ebola, six towns became infected because a truck driver stopped to fuck prostitutes EVEN AS EBOLA LIQUIFIED HIS GUTS!

[HemlockGrey]

So, when the possibility of a compromise is perfectly acceptable -- "You can keep having sex, but use a condom, as well"...

I thought condoms didn't stop AIDS?

[Darth Wong]

The corruption and constant war is responsible for nearly all of Africa's problems. If they'd stop killing each other long enough to drag themselves out of the stone age, they'd be a lot better off in general.

True.

A huge chunk of the HIV infections occur through prostitution. In many cases the only way girls can contribute to their families survival or survive on their own is to become a hooker. They can't use a condom even though most know there is a damn good chance they could contract some STD. And it's the same thing in India and most of Southeast Asia.

They can't use condoms because condoms aren't being widely distributed. Condoms aren't being widely distributed because there is strong social pressure from the West and from the Church to divert funds to other activities ... ANY other activities but condom distribution and education.

And take one extreme case from Africa. In a 1996 outbreak of Ebola, six towns became infected because a truck driver stopped to fuck prostitutes EVEN AS EBOLA LIQUIFIED HIS GUTS!

That is an extreme case, true. But 17 million AIDS cases is caused by much broader, more general problems than insane cases like that.

[Darth Wong]

So, when the possibility of a compromise is perfectly acceptable -- "You can keep having sex, but use a condom, as well"...

I thought condoms didn't stop AIDS?

I see you've been listening to the "condoms don't work" crowd. What they neglect to mention is that condoms are like seatbelts; life doesn't offer perfect guarantees, but you will have a helluva lot more fatalities if you stop taking precautions.

[Stuart Mackey]

So, when the possibility of a compromise is perfectly acceptable -- "You can keep having sex, but use a condom, as well"...

I thought condoms didn't stop AIDS?

I see you've been listening to the "condoms don't work" crowd. What they neglect to mention is that condoms are like seatbelts; life doesn't offer perfect guarantees, but you will have a helluva lot more fatalities if you stop taking precautions.

Is it not amazing how those who preach abstinance from sex, fail to understand human nature? sex is fun, so they will do it.

[Stormbringer]

A huge chunk of the HIV infections occur through prostitution. In many cases the only way girls can contribute to their families survival or survive on their own is to become a hooker. They can't use a condom even though most know there is a damn good chance they could contract some STD. And it's the same thing in India and most of Southeast Asia.

They can't use condoms because condoms aren't being widely distributed. Condoms aren't being widely distributed because there is strong social pressure from the West and from the Church to divert funds to other activities ... ANY other activities but condom distribution and education.

The problem with prostitution is not that they can't get condoms, it's that they can't use them. The guys simply won't patronize a prostitute that requires them. Most of the hookers know the risks but run them because they have no choice. That's usually the case in survival prostitution. And it's lead to skyrocketing infections rates in Africa, India, and Southeast Asia.

And take one extreme case from Africa. In a 1996 outbreak of Ebola, six towns became infected because a truck driver stopped to fuck prostitutes EVEN AS EBOLA LIQUIFIED HIS GUTS!

That is an extreme case, true. But 17 million AIDS cases is caused by much broader, more general problems than insane cases like that.

As I mentioned, that was an extreme case but indicative of the major problem it is to make these people see sense.

[HemlockGrey]

Wong: Ok. I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that condoms were utterly useless against AIDS because the virus would always slide in between the holes in the latex. I blame the Haverford School District Sex Ed program for my misknowledge.

[Darth Wong]

The problem with prostitution is not that they can't get condoms, it's that they can't use them. The guys simply won't patronize a prostitute that requires them. Most of the hookers know the risks but run them because they have no choice. That's usually the case in survival prostitution. And it's lead to skyrocketing infections rates in Africa, India, and Southeast Asia.

This stems in large part from poor education, which in turn stems from the same taboos I'm talking about. There is life-saving information that nobody wants to teach because they're squeamish or hung-up or blocked by religious beliefs. Did you know that some people in Africa believe that if a person with AIDS fucks a virgin, it will cure him? But even in communities with some kind of school, the subject of sex education is verboten for all the reasons I've mentioned before, so they might as well NOT have schools.

And BTW, condom supplies ARE inadequate. The charity organizations, WHO, etc. all agree that they need more condoms, but they have a hard time getting support from people who still preach these idiotic and ultimately destructive "abstinence-only" AIDS prevention programs.

[Darth Wong]

Wong: Ok. I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that condoms were utterly useless against AIDS because the virus would always slide in between the holes in the latex. I blame the Haverford School District Sex Ed program for my misknowledge.

I would insert a rant about sexual hang-ups destroying a crucial part of public education here, but I'm too tired. You know what I would say anyway.

[Stormbringer]

This stems in large part from poor education, which in turn stems from the same taboos I'm talking about. There is life-saving information that nobody wants to teach because they're squeamish or hung-up or blocked by religious beliefs. Did you know that some people in Africa believe that if a person with AIDS fucks a virgin, it will cure him? But even in communities with some kind of school, the subject of sex education is verboten for all the reasons I've mentioned before, so they might as well NOT have schools.

I did know about that myth. It's lead to an outbreak of child rape , especially in South Africa.

And general ignorance is killing them. That's at the root of some many of Africa's probelm. If Africa had any sort of educational system, especially a trusted one, then they wouldn't be in this mess. It's not entirely the Catholic Church's fault. Not that they couldn't do better than they have.

And BTW, condom supplies ARE inadequate. The charity organizations, WHO, etc. all agree that they need more condoms, but they have a hard time getting support from people who still preach these idiotic and ultimately destructive "abstinence-only" AIDS prevention programs.

I was under the impression that the shortage wasn't as serious as you say. I knew that in the backwater areas it was a problem but not so much so in the cities.

[tharkûn]

On the pharmeceutical rant ... one of the things about why drugs are not sold cheap in 3rd world countries is importation. Drug companies actually make piss little off of 3rd world sales, whoever if they did cut the prices down, some states used to take and import the drug back.

For instance a drug company in the US makes drug A in the US. It retails in the US for 50 a pill. They ship it to Africa to sell at 1 dollar a pill (manufacture cost ... NOT R&D/marketing costs). Well a group in say Germany takes and buys up all the 1 dollar A pills, ships them to Germany and sells them for 5 dollars a pop.

Hell the US has considered a bill where drugs manufactured in the US, shipped to Canada, could then be bought in Canada and shipped back to the US and resold for a profit. Yes that's right pay to ship them north, pay to ship them south and still make money on the whole deal compared to just buying them in the States.

I can't hideously fault the drug companies, their profit margin has lead to insane amounts of R&D and investment capital. A large portion of drugs never make it to the market, and when they do you can still be looking at massive losses if there is a lawsuit ... the few drugs that do make it all the way out have to carry all the failures. Their advertisements, while moronic in concept, work and net each respective company more money ... if a company doesn't advertise ... then their competitors will do better.

All told the drug companies would love to sell drugs just above the nominal cost to people who otherwise can't afford them (that is just above the cost of production per unit), but doesn't want to do this for people which can afford to pay the complete cost (investment costs included).

[Darth Wong]

And that is why America has the most expensive health care system in the world. American Medicaid, which does NOT cover the entire population, actually costs more per capita than the Canadian provincial health plans, which DO cover the entire population!

[Darth Wong]

On a related note, I am continually amazed at the bizarre nature of the American health care system. Americans say they don't want government-run health care, but they have the Medicare program, which provides government-run health-care for the elderly.

Now, here's the scam: the elderly, because of their tendency to be ... well, old and infirm, use up at least 70-80% of overall health care costs. So why not simply bump up Medicare to pay the remaining 20-30%, and cover younger people as well?

Because the younger people can be GOUGED FOR MORE MONEY.

[Stuart Mackey]

On a related note, I am continually amazed at the bizarre nature of the American health care system. Americans say they don't want government-run health care, but they have the Medicare program, which provides government-run health-care for the elderly.

Now, here's the scam: the elderly, because of their tendency to be ... well, old and infirm, use up at least 70-80% of overall health care costs. So why not simply bump up Medicare to pay the remaining 20-30%, and cover younger people as well?

Because the younger people can be GOUGED FOR MORE MONEY.

Lol, appeal to greed, always works, allthough not as good as the ol appeal to vanity....

[lgot]

actually... there might be a silver lining to this particular problem... evolution might just find a way, so to speak, that would effectively render HIV moot -- a form of natural immunity perhaps.

Or you could just fail to adapt and die. Evolution wouldnt mind that much.
But just to note, Wild cats in Africa have developed a resistense to the "HIV" that felines can get (I say "HIV" because it is not the same thing, a similar disease). As result domestic cats are dying because the owners do not allow them to breed with the wild ones and their children are then, not resistent to disease...So that may be true...

On the Catholic Church in Catholic Countries and the use of condoms.
Brazil is a Catholic Church and as such, probally the biggest Catholic Country in the world (also one of the top ranking in AIDS), and here , the public research showed that the big majority of the people care little for what the pope thinks and use condoms. The Priests and bishops here say little about the subject ,following kind of "Pretent that is not with me". The Governament and media make huge campaings to use of condoms, among prostitutes also (which leads to the fact that here the prostitutes ask for the use of condom and in every motel - the usual brazilian place for such meetings -offer condoms in the every room ). Result, the spreading of AIDS reduced.


Tharkûn :

On the pharmeceutical rant ... one of the things about why drugs are not sold cheap in 3rd world countries is importation. Drug companies actually make piss little off of 3rd world sales, whoever if they did cut the prices down, some states used to take and import the drug back.

That is not true. The Drugs company work in cartel mode and use they power to put the drugs or not in the market here.
Plus there is the huge problem of the Copyright laws (I dunno if this is really the right word for drugs) and the USA governament worked against the free distribution of the drugs because of that.
The Drugs problem is much bigger because is over abusing and the drug companies actually steal drugs from the 3th world, register that as their creation and then sell for fortunes and hunt down the housing production (which is usually not industrial). That happens a lot and the fight about this is one of the reasons of why the drug industry care little of the 3th world.

[Sokar]

Ah HIV/AIDS.....an ever so perfect pestilence in my opinion. Now before I get bashed for being a bigot and insensitive to the suffering of millions around the world, that very fact is what bothers me about AIDS. Humanity has a long history with disease from the annoying to the staggeringly deadly. HIV/AIDS is pecluliar in that it lacks the violence and speedy lethality that has characterized most epidemics prior to the outbreak of HIV/AIDS. It is a silent killer that lacks the signs of infection until the final horrific endgame common to all AIDS patients. Where am I going you might ask , well I feel that HIV is a engineered disease whose sole purpose is to serve as a "culling" device for the human race. One just has to look at the regions worst affected by the disease. In the West it is a minor problem really , far more people die due to heart disease, lung cancer, or eat themselves into an early grave every year than have died from AIDS since the disease was identified. Rather the nations of the Global South who are the least able to deal with the spread of the disease are the worst hit. Conversly , these same regions would have provided a base for the rise of new powers and industrial centers that could have one day challenged Western dominance of global commerce and industry.

Call me a facist if you like but thats how I really see it.in my book AIDS is far to tidy to be natural Do I think the RCC has any complicity in this , possibly, but at the same time their policies are helping the epidemic continue to grow, especially in Africa so I question their motives. (Hey , not every Cardinal or Bishop is a parochial Luddite someone within the Church has to understand enough science to be able to get a grip on how this disease functions)

In my bleak out look for the resolution of the AIDS crisis her is what happens, by 2030 the disease has hit a kind of critical mass in many countries , the infected outnumber the clean all across South and Central Asia(China , India, South East Asia , Indonesia ect...) Africa has been burned out to the core...all thats left are orphan youngsters , a few healthy adults and thes elderly who have survived(Save a good portion of the white Afrikanners in S.A. fully ready to resume rule and control of the most mineral rich region on Earth. South Africa is the planets treasure box boasting vast reserves of diamonds, gold and heavy metals such a manganese, molybendium, titanium et al..which are vital to Western industry.After a holoucaust of mind boggling proportions(Much of America will not even notice , enthralled as always by the latest bio-pic of a United Flight 93 passenger) After sufficient damage has been done , the cure will be unveiled to great relief and fanfare. Sad memorials to the dead will be erected and people everywhere will wear ribbons and wave memorial flags and feel sentimental for about a month...amd in a hundred years it will all be just a footnote in the history books , skipped over in the rush.

Or am I just a conspiracy theory nutcase who has watched one to many X-file........

[Spoonist]

Or am I just a conspiracy theory nutcase who has watched one to many X-file........

Well you at least got one thing right.

[Stormbringer]

Or am I just a conspiracy theory nutcase who has watched one to many X-file........

That's far more likely than your conspiracy theory.

[tharkûn]

That is not true. The Drugs company work in cartel mode and use they power to put the drugs or not in the market here.
So they are a cartel? They still only make money when they SELL THE DRUG. If they had the option to sell the drug just above nominal cost to those who wouldn't otherwise get them ... and everyone else pay the full cost ... THEY WOULD DO IT. Even a cartel tries to maximize its profit. The problem is if you start selling it cheap to some people everyone wants it just as cheap.

Patent law is the ONLY reason drug companies can possibly make a profit. The R&D costs for drugs is idiotic, it takes YEARS to go from a newly synthesized drug to market. If the US government stopped enforcing patent law, drug companies would stop investing in R&D.

The Drugs problem is much bigger because is over abusing and the drug companies actually steal drugs from the 3th world, register that as their creation and then sell for fortunes
Most drugs are not some natural plant extract that the big drug companies steal (there have been a few cases), most are highly unnatural chemicals derived through organic synthesis and even those that aren't are still chemically manufactured. Yes some specific discoveries have been ripped off, but by and large most discoveries come out of a chemical lab not a jungle. A good amount of the cost is not even discovery ... its vetting the drug before the FDA.

Mike:
Medicare is political bribery. Old people vote. He who cuts medicare will have the old people vote against him, and likely lose. Personally I think medicare contributes to higher healthcare costs, I'd like to see a voucher system ... government gives you X dollars to pay for a healthcare premium (you pick the provider), if you don't like your provider you jump ship.

You also missed the other big US medical program ... medicaid. Which tends to cover the poor young children (who are most often sick), and the hideously disabled/sick who yet again require more healthcare than the rest.

On the flip side the US healthcare system does subsidize healthcare R&D for the rest of the world

[Sokar]

Nice to know I'm a looney, although I'd like to know what makes my theory , and its just that a theory , I don't have any smoking guns to wave around, so far fetched. There are things about the AIDS epidemic that just don't jive for me.

[lgot]

Tharkun :

So they are a cartel? They still only make money when they SELL THE DRUG. If they had the option to sell the drug just above nominal cost to those who wouldn't otherwise get them ...

Correct, Just that you said the reason are importations. Importation cost are irrelevant. The Drugs companies just want to sell the medicine here for the same vallue they sell in the riches countries, which make the medicine consume ridiculous because the third world's inferior salaries. Then they prefer just to dont sell and do not allow anyone to produce or have access of it.

Most drugs are not some natural plant extract that the big drug companies steal (there have been a few cases), most are highly unnatural chemicals derived through organic synthesis and even those that aren't are still chemically manufactured.

That is not true. Mostly of the "manufacturated" products are a version of already created drug produced in the nature. The companies discover the old natural version, go to the laboratory and do a unnatural version to claim the rights over the creation.
That is the reason of the "Brazil is or not able to protect Amazon alone" deal. Not naturalism or something, but the simple fact that from there come the vast majority of new products that are and can be found there.

[tharkûn]

Correct, Just that you said the reason are importations. Importation cost are irrelevant. The Drugs companies just want to sell the medicine here for the same vallue they sell in the riches countries, which make the medicine consume ridiculous because the third world's inferior salaries. Then they prefer just to dont sell and do not allow anyone to produce or have access of it.
It is because of importation. Here is the IDEAL situation for the drug companies:
1. First world sales cover the vast majority of profit/R&D/advertising costs.
2. 3rd world countries get reduced prices, but the drugs STAY THERE.

If drugs did not go from poor countries to rich countries then the drug companies would sell in the poor countries at just above nominal cost. Unfortunately this does not happen. Some dicks in the richer portions of the world will head to the poor countries buy the cheap drug and resell it for a hideous profit. If other people make the drug for cheap ... the same thing happens.

That is not true. Mostly of the "manufacturated" products are a version of already created drug produced in the nature. The companies discover the old natural version, go to the laboratory and do a unnatural version to claim the rights over the creation.
Most drugs do not occur in nature, when they do it is in such low quantities that harvesting it is not economically viable. Many drugs are flourinated ... nature does flourinate. Many drugs do involve structures quite similar to natural structures ... that is because they fit into the SAME ACTIVE site and need to have damn similar electric/Van der Waals profiles. For instance AZT is just a simple nucleotide analogue, a N3 group is attached instead of a hydroxyl to terminate.

Further international law is fairly specific, he who isolates a specific compound ... owns it. It is NOT trivial to find the 1 specific chemical (which likely is milli/micromolar or worse), analyze it, and then run clinicals showing it is actually viable as a drug. Finding a chemical structure is not always the most expensive part, often times finding a method for mass production, clinical trials, etc. cost FAR more than getting your structure.

[lgot]

It is because of importation. Here is the IDEAL situation for the drug companies:
1. First world sales cover the vast majority of profit/R&D/advertising costs.
2. 3rd world countries get reduced prices, but the drugs STAY THERE.

It is not that. Again,
pay attention: The cost of medicine here, Brazil is already 4 times the USA cost, just because the dollar/Real vallorization. A product that in USA have a "normal" cost around 100,00 dollars would cost here 400,00. Already more than 60% of brazilian population that receive salaries, receive bellow 400,00.
There is not a market to buy the products for a similar price of the USA, even without the importation. It is not even necessary to worry about this, there is no whom to buy it. The lababoratories wont reduce they base price to sell here, to fix it to the brazilian market monetary power, so they just do not sell or care. You must understand that the importation is irrelevant and Medicine does not even pay taxes here.
Of course the labs can not even allow the sell the products by a lower price (or produce them) because would be possible to an USA buy here and even paying importantion taxes to have it more cheap than he would buying in USA. That is the reason of the lack of interest of the companies to produce to serve the third world demand. Nothing to do with importations.

Most drugs do not occur in nature, when they do it is in such low quantities that harvesting it is not economically viable. Many drugs are flourinated ... nature does flourinate. Many drugs do involve structures quite similar to natural structures ...

Ok, I am doing a mistake calling by natural drugs the drugs produced by non-industrial means or used by the natives. Please just read all that wrote with this little change.

Further international law is fairly specific, he who isolates a specific compound ...

That is the whole stealing problem. The researches found natives using some substance and they just get the plant (or what is necessary to produce it) , reproduce that in the laboratory and claim the register. That is something happening.

Plus the laws are under huge argument. The laboratories do try to just reproduce natural products to register as their own products (Happened with the Bathrox, the famous most poisonous frog in the world, they got the frog from here illegaly but this failed because the frong only produce the poison if he feeds with an special vegetable).

[Guest]

I hate drug companies. Then again I hate lots of things