The War On Tobacco

[Mr Bean]

And you have the right to endanger your own life, of course, by spraying me with pepper spray. Beware the lemon meringue pie...

Raoul you remeber I'm the other gun nut on the board? I walk around with a .45 and two clips at all times right? Plus the Knives of course

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

No, Bean, I can't -- except this one, and I'll admit it's weak: I want to make my own decision. Now that's just the rebel in me, but it's my choice, not yours, not the government's, not God's. My choice.

Now back to the meat of the matter, which I've already mentioned: is it right to tax a product off the market in order to get around having to give consumers a choice? Am I the only one who thinks that practice interferes unreasonably with a free market?

They do much more with most narcotics. Tobacco is given a relatively free ride only because of the grandfather clause.

I wasn't aware that tobacco is classified as a narcotic? And I assume you're not talking about the time travel "grandfather clause" so could you fill me in on this one?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

And you have the right to endanger your own life, of course, by spraying me with pepper spray. Beware the lemon meringue pie...

Raoul you remeber I'm the other gun nut on the board? I walk around with a .45 and two clips at all times right? Plus the Knives of course

But I carry The Lemon Meringue Pie... beware the Pie... (In case you can't tell, I'm trying to lighten the mood a little. Things are getting a little too tense in this thread. Sorry.)

[Mr Bean]

I wasn't aware that tobacco is classified as a narcotic? And I assume you're not talking about the time travel "grandfather clause" so could you fill me in on this one?

\
The Niccotine is classified as a drug and it has quite a few other things in there that in great enough quailtes can give one a high much like Comerical Paint can give on a high, why its classfied as such

And the Grandfauther Clause I'm not sure about, I've heard it but nothing comes to mind, prehaps its similar to Expost Facto and not arresting people for crimes that where commited before a law made them illeagle that and/or the fact two States at least and six states possibly depend on a large amount of thier Ecnomey each year on Tobacco(North and South Carilona's being the definate ones)

[Darth Wong]

I wasn't aware that tobacco is classified as a narcotic? And I assume you're not talking about the time travel "grandfather clause" so could you fill me in on this one?

Nicotine has a narcotic effect. It is not officially classified as a narcotic simply because of the grandfather clause. The grandfather clause refers not to time travel, but to people or institutions which have been around for so long that they predate rules being put in place, and so are given a free ride. For example, very old automobiles are exempted from emissions-control requirements.

[The Dark]

And the Grandfauther Clause I'm not sure about, I've heard it but nothing comes to mind, prehaps its similar to Expost Facto and not arresting people for crimes that where commited before a law made them illeagle that and/or the fact two States at least and six states possibly depend on a large amount of thier Ecnomey each year on Tobacco(North and South Carilona's being the definate ones)

Virginia too, I remember driving alongside tobacco fields in Virginia.

[sarcasm] That's probably what the grandfather clause was. All the rich descendants of plantation owners didn't want to lose the fortunes their grandfathers had earned for them. Aristocratic SOBs.[/sarcasm]

[Darth Servo]

D. People who smoke because people tell them they shouldn't.

That has got to be the worst possible reason to do anything. People also tell you you shouldn't smoke crack too. You wouldn't go out and pick up that habit would you, even if it were legal?
As for people who say that smoking only hurts the person doing it, that is a out right lie. Your early death will deeply hurt your family.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

People also say that you're not suppost to ram a curling iron up your anus.

I personally see no difference in the idiocy.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Damn, Raoul, you seem to be vastly outnumbered by the non-smokers. So out of sheer obligation, I'm gonna have to throw my lot in with you and put my balls on the block too.

I'm a smoker too, and although I see no benefitial reason to do it as far as health wise, I do find enjoyment from it. Like after sex, it's relaxing. Or when I'm stressed. I know someone will say that's just in my mind, but when you deal with the amount and magnitude of idiots I deal with every day, you'd need a few puffs too. Or a 12 gauge and a LOT of shells...Heh.

However, I don't think this little clause is gonna go very far as far as nationally. Like someone metioned before, there are some states that generated a large portion of their income from tobacco taxes.

And I'd like to point out, if they were to bump cigs up to $10 a pack, you're not finding a logically solution. You're just openning a window for an increased amount of other health problems. Such as the people that start trying to smuggle them in from places that are cheaper. Black market shit. Or, like I mention on my website, cigs will become so expensive that people will start to kill each other over them. (Which ironically, a few months after I mentioned this, this actually happened in the town I work. Small, nice (sic) town...where this guy went ballistic and beat his mother to deal, hit an old lady with his dirt bike, kidnapped a girl, and killed a boy that was a random passerby. And what was the origin of this murderous rampage? His mother wouldn't give him money for a pack of smokes...) These brand of laws will only make it so the more financially set of society can smoke, and then the crime rate will go up as those who can't afford 'em start jacking up people for 'em.

Plus, don't you find that sort of ironic? The government officials, laying in beds of cash, tax all the run-of-the-mills out the ass to further pad their beds while they can puff away all they like.

[Darth Servo]

I'm a smoker too, and although I see no benefitial reason to do it as far as health wise, I do find enjoyment from it. Like after sex, it's relaxing. Or when I'm stressed. I know someone will say that's just in my mind, but when you deal with the amount and magnitude of idiots I deal with every day, you'd need a few puffs too. Or a 12 gauge and a LOT of shells...Heh.

And we non-smokers DON'T have such stresses? Stress is NOT a reason to smoke, its an excuse.

And I'd like to point out, if they were to bump cigs up to $10 a pack, you're not finding a logically solution. You're just openning a window for an increased amount of other health problems. Such as the people that start trying to smuggle them in from places that are cheaper. Black market shit. Or, like I mention on my website, cigs will become so expensive that people will start to kill each other over them. (Which ironically, a few months after I mentioned this, this actually happened in the town I work. Small, nice (sic) town...where this guy went ballistic and beat his mother to deal, hit an old lady with his dirt bike, kidnapped a girl, and killed a boy that was a random passerby. And what was the origin of this murderous rampage? His mother wouldn't give him money for a pack of smokes...) These brand of laws will only make it so the more financially set of society can smoke, and then the crime rate will go up as those who can't afford 'em start jacking up people for 'em.

Looks like a slippery slope fallacy to me.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Then they should go with one of my plans:

Put cyanide in random cigarettes. And have a label on the pack that says "WARNING: ONE OR MORE OF THE CIGARETTES IN THIS PACK MAY CONTAIN CYANIDE!!"

And if you want stress relief, go jerk off or do what I did sometimes in high school and put clothespins on your fingertips where the fingernails start growing. The pain eventually becomes euphoric, and is the best feeling in the world.

I just realised that I might have given a little too much information about myself...

[Darth Wong]

A truly grotesque slippery slope fallacy. And it doesn't occur to him that if some psycho will kill for cigarette money, that merely proves that it's the harmful narcotic that we keep saying it is. Nobody says that crack cocaine should be made legal and cheap because people will kill for it!

PS. one other problem I have with smokers: why the fuck do they think they have a divine right to litter? The roadside is littered with those goddamned cigarette butts. Smokers roll down their windows to dump their shit all over the street. You see piles of cigarette butts around the entrances and exits of shopping malls. If I ate a burger and threw the wrapper into the street, people would stare and someone might accost me for being a litterbug asshole. But if somebody smokes and tosses his burning cigarette butt into the street, that's OK! Well, fuck that. Another hypocrisy is smokers who light up while driving and then complain about cell-phone users.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Well, fallacy or not, being that the one point that I made, which I meant to be the main one, has already happened in the town I work in, my point is more or less logical, although completely ridiculous at the same time.

BTW, I never said non-smokers didn't have those stresses. And I didn't say I smoke BECAUSE of stress. I had stress before I smoked. I said smoking is I way I help deal with mine.

Mike. I don't litter my butts everywhere. I keep them in my tray and then dump them in the can when I get to work. And when I'm in the woods, I field strip them, because if you don't, they won't break down.

[Darth Servo]

Well, fallacy or not, being that the one point that I made, which I meant to be the main one, has already happened in the town I work in, my point is more or less logical, although completely ridiculous at the same time.

And kids have killed for trendy shoes as well. You have no point. The goal is to make cigs as undesirable as possible and hiking the price will help in that regard.

BTW, I never said non-smokers didn't have those stresses. And I didn't say I smoke BECAUSE of stress. I had stress before I smoked. I said smoking is I way I help deal with mine.

Well, its a lousy way to deal. I have demostrated that smoking is immoral: it creates a burden on society and it WILL hurt those close to you.

Mike. I don't litter my butts everywhere. I keep them in my tray and then dump them in the can when I get to work. And when I'm in the woods, I field strip them, because if you don't, they won't break down.

Well thats admirable of you. Too bad MOST smokers are not so considerate.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

If you were really considerate, you'd just swallow them. They can't be that bad for you, can they, Hmm?

[Mr Bean]

Well, fallacy or not,

Bang Problem right there, Fallacy or not? These are Not Logic Suggests here these are logic ERRORS IE its Bullshit, not kinda bullshit, completly bullshit

being that the one point that I made, which I meant to be the main one, has already happened in the town I work in, my point is more or less logical, although completely ridiculous at the same time.

And it still is Bullshit, does ONE action of ONE Man mean we making sweeping changes?
Clue in Buddy, we've been loosing people to drunks who want beer money since before the tenth century

[Lord_Xerxes]

Way to turn a compliment around in two seconds, Spanky. LOL.

I also didn't say it was a good way to deal, or if it was good for others. But it works for me. I know it'll fuck me up later in life, but like most other smokers, I just don't care about it in this point. I'm sure I will later. But maybe by then they'll start cloning lungs or something. LOL.

If you compare it to the way some other people deal with stress...alcohol, more potent drugs, or a downright mental break down-induced rampage, it's more mild. Although, I bet you'll respond with alcohol and more potent drugs don't have the second hand effect that smoking does. But then again, depends on how the person handles those things too.

To each his own, I suppose.

Besides, if they raise cigarette prices, what will prisoners use to barter for metal shivs and make-shift knives?

[Lord_Xerxes]

Well, fallacy or not, being that the one point that I made, which I meant to be the main one, has already happened in the town I work in, my point is more or less logical, although completely ridiculous at the same time.

And kids have killed for trendy shoes as well. You have no point. The goal is to make cigs as undesirable as possible and hiking the price will help in that regard.

My point is that the more people try to make things unobtainable, the more extremes people will go to to try and get them. I'm not saying ALL people will.

And I understand completely what the concept of raising them to $10 is. Infact, I agree with it in the respect that it will also help discourage teenagers from smoking because frankly, they just don't have that kind of money.

The main problem that I have with this is, will this price raise only be on cigarettes, or will it be applied to all tobacco products (dip, cigars, etc)?

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Actually, Bean, I fall into:

D. People who smoke because people tell them they shouldn't.

That would fall under the 'idiot' category.

Here's the thing, you are paying money to kill yourself. If you don't think that's stupid your opinion on taxing ciggarettes is irrelevent.

[Yogi]

Smokers are a public health hazard, as well as a medical nightmare. They should then pay for it.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Well, fallacy or not,

Bang Problem right there, Fallacy or not? These are Not Logic Suggests here these are logic ERRORS IE its Bullshit, not kinda bullshit, completly bullshit

Well, my opinnion is bullshit then. But it makes sense to me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And just as everyone else voiced theirs, I voiced mine. Just as Raoul did his. I choose to throw my lot in with him, fully expecting to get a harsh reaction (putting my balls on the block)

And it still is Bullshit, does ONE action of ONE Man mean we making sweeping changes?

No. I think it (what happened) is bs too. (completely ridiculous?) I didn't say that that one action of one person meant the entire country would change. I was relating a story that applied to my opinnion. I think a majority of people will quite smoking if this goes national. And good for them too. It'll help the people that don't have the self-control to normally do it on there own.

Clue in Buddy, we've been loosing people to drunks who want beer money since before the tenth century

And they tried prohibition to, and because the majority rebelled against it, and didn't not agree, it was rolled over.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

That's why you have to ween people off tobacco, doorknob.

Or just go with my cyanide plan.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Argh. Finally got that mess sorted out to look teh way I wanted it so that my text was seperated from Bean's.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Cynanide plan sounds good. Flesh it out for me? We could stand to decrease the surplus population some anyway. Heh.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

As I said before:

You put cyanide in random cigarettes. And have a label on the pack that says "WARNING: ONE OR MORE OF THE CIGARETTES IN THIS PACK MAY CONTAIN CYANIDE!!"

You make the ratio of cyanide cigs/regular cigs high enough so there's an actual threat.

And you make some laws so it's all legal.

How well would something like that work?