Are Jehovah Witness's a Cult?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-10-17 03:56am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:For the JWs, the righteous people who don't make the 144,000 cut get to live forever in an Earth returned to a state like the Garden of Eden.

People will continue having children in this paradise but no one will die and they don't see a problem with this belief.
Uh huh, and what will they do when their offspring over run the Earth? Let me guess God will provide.

Well the idea of Eden is basically a world that is limitless in space and resources. Thus, over population would be impossible.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-17 07:06am

does anybody know WHY exactly it´s 144.000 people and not, lets say, 144.001 people?

Mopeyennuui · Post by **Mopeyennuui** » 2004-10-17 07:27am

I once on the history channel saw a former (?) JW bitching about JW's getign killed in the NAZI hiolocaust..

I had to yell at the tV..

"Somehow I think you deserved it! Damn pigfuckers.."

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-17 07:42am

Zerg Goddess wrote:I once on the history channel saw a former (?) JW bitching about JW's getign killed in the NAZI hiolocaust..

I had to yell at the tV..

"Somehow I think you deserved it! Damn pigfuckers.."

shut up you worthles piece of shit.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-10-17 08:16am

Certainly modern Mormonism is a religion who's members are capable of functioning in modern American society; the same is not the case for the JWs, which in my eyes places them in the realm of a cult (I also have an acquiantance who managed to escape their clutches and most definitely believes they were a cult and is involved with the groups working against them).

Mopeyennuui · Post by **Mopeyennuui** » 2004-10-17 09:22am

salm wrote:
Zerg Goddess wrote:I once on the history channel saw a former (?) JW bitching about JW's getign killed in the NAZI hiolocaust..

I had to yell at the tV..

"Somehow I think you deserved it! Damn pigfuckers.."
shut up you worthles piece of shit.

No, because I've recently ben burnt by one..

and the thought was more of a "Gee, I wonder why Her Adolf was kilign you off...?

Can you HONESTLY say a JW has never driven you to the point where you've wanted to kill them?

Dayum, either you neer net one or you are one!.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-10-17 09:28am

In fairness to ZG's opinions, if he is actually suffering harassment at the moment from JWs such expressions are somewhat more understandable, as harassment places individuals under stress. The remedy to it, however, would be to call the cops the next time they show up.

Terr Fangbite · Post by **Terr Fangbite** » 2004-10-17 09:30am

In my opinion religion bashing of any kind is kinda stupid. So what if so and so wants to believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven and the rest of us are going to burn. Just as long as they don't come barging into your home and demand you join at gunpoint, I don't see how people coming at your door is some breech of religious freedom (argued elsewhere I believe). Every religion is concidered a cult by others so asking if JW are a cult is rather pointless since you'll get a thousand who say yes and a thousand who say no in varying degrees of conviction.
This entire thread has been pretty much not whether really discussing if the JW fit the critieria demanded by a cult (except for really Wong, who believes all religions are a cult). Most of this thread is "well my brother got hooked in and when he left he said it was a cult" kinda stuff which bears no scientific reasoning. What if this brother was dumped by a cute chick in the church and was kicked out for stalking the girl later? He would run out saying how the JW are such a cult and evil and how they should be removed, just out of revenge. I'm sure there are valid claims but without evidence of such, go whine to someone else.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-17 09:35am

Terr Fangbite wrote:In my opinion religion bashing of any kind is kinda stupid.

Why? We're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses; these people are fucking fruitloops, and deserve to be mocked.

So what if so and so wants to believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven and the rest of us are going to burn. Just as long as they don't come barging into your home and demand you join at gunpoint, I don't see how people coming at your door is some breech of religious freedom (argued elsewhere I believe).

I have been harassed by people who have rung the doorbell and woken me up, and it's got nothing to do with religious freedom, but privacy. Whether you like it or not, if you knock on somebody's door and you don't have a valid reason (and no, "Let's talk about Jesus" is not a valid reason) then I will throw the fucking door in your face.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-10-17 09:56am

Terr Fangbite wrote: Just as long as they don't come barging into your home and demand you join at gunpoint,

JW's are known to do pretty much everything except that.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-10-17 10:21am

Zerg Goddess wrote: No, because I've recently ben burnt by one..

and the thought was more of a "Gee, I wonder why Her Adolf was kilign you off...?

<snip worthles crap>

be so kind and shove that type of statement up your ass even if you´re not serious about them.

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-10-17 10:52am

salm wrote:does anybody know WHY exactly it´s 144.000 people and not, lets say, 144.001 people?

This is just a guess:

144000 = 12x12x1000

The dozen was very important in those days. Otherwise i'ts kinda hard to "invent" such a number i think.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-10-17 01:35pm

Maybe the church I use to belong to was some sort of off shoot. Because the relentless JWs that most of you people are talking about...well I never met them.

My church did the door to door thing but in Stofsks case he would have been black listed by MY church. However, just because members from my church would never go to his house again doesn't mean members from other JW churchs wouldn't. Do you think they have a database of names? LOL they probably should but it is silly to think that they do.

The JW I knew were loopy for one reason...that's believing in god. Every religion is like that though....

Every religion also has its extremists who misinterpret the teachings....JWs are not a special case at all. However, like I said maybe the church I use to belong to had a bit of sense to them.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-10-17 02:12pm

Antares wrote:
salm wrote:does anybody know WHY exactly it´s 144.000 people and not, lets say, 144.001 people?
This is just a guess:

144000 = 12x12x1000

The dozen was very important in those days. Otherwise i'ts kinda hard to "invent" such a number i think.

Like most things, it would likely boil down to, "because God said so."

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-17 02:24pm

Terr Fangbite wrote:In my opinion religion bashing of any kind is kinda stupid. So what if so and so wants to believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven and the rest of us are going to burn. Just as long as they don't come barging into your home and demand you join at gunpoint, I don't see how people coming at your door is some breech of religious freedom (argued elsewhere I believe). Every religion is concidered a cult by others so asking if JW are a cult is rather pointless since you'll get a thousand who say yes and a thousand who say no in varying degrees of conviction.
This entire thread has been pretty much not whether really discussing if the JW fit the critieria demanded by a cult (except for really Wong, who believes all religions are a cult). Most of this thread is "well my brother got hooked in and when he left he said it was a cult" kinda stuff which bears no scientific reasoning. What if this brother was dumped by a cute chick in the church and was kicked out for stalking the girl later? He would run out saying how the JW are such a cult and evil and how they should be removed, just out of revenge. I'm sure there are valid claims but without evidence of such, go whine to someone else.

technically, according to merriam webster any formal religious veneration or systems of religious beliefs and ritual is a cult. so catholicism and other forms of christianity would fit under that definition nicely.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-10-17 03:05pm

Yeah, but I don't think that's the definition they're intending for it to be understood by. It's equivocating if you're using the word "cult" to describe a somewhat subversive and perhaps dangerous cult, then you can claim any religion is a cult by another definition.

The JWs don't have a living charismatic leader, which is the norm for cults. I'd say they do fall under the intended meaning of cult, given their relatively small size and influence yet notoriety for having extreme beliefs and antisociability. Which is what got them thrown out of Russia recently, if you remember.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-17 03:17pm

salm wrote:does anybody know WHY exactly it´s 144.000 people and not, lets say, 144.001 people?

Blatant misreading of the Revelation of John.

Revelation 14 wrote:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

JWs believe that those 144,000 in the heavenly choir are the only ones to be taken in the Rapture.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-17 03:29pm

Rye wrote:Yeah, but I don't think that's the definition they're intending for it to be understood by. It's equivocating if you're using the word "cult" to describe a somewhat subversive and perhaps dangerous cult, then you can claim any religion is a cult by another definition.

The JWs don't have a living charismatic leader, which is the norm for cults. I'd say they do fall under the intended meaning of cult, given their relatively small size and influence yet notoriety for having extreme beliefs and antisociability. Which is what got them thrown out of Russia recently, if you remember.

so does that mean that catholicism is a cult? the pope is their leader after all. not quite sure about the charismatic bit though. . . .

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-10-17 03:53pm

Darth_Zod wrote: so does that mean that catholicism is a cult? the pope is their leader after all. not quite sure about the charismatic bit though. . . .

Well, this is the definition I go by:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

I'd say catholicism possibly borders on cult-status, what with the poverty the priests are supposed live in, but I wouldn't really call them extremist, not in the same way Heaven's Gate or the Davidians or JWs were, anyway.

technomage · Post by **technomage** » 2004-10-17 04:19pm

My sister got into Wicca for a while as a way of throwing religion in our parents' faces. One day, three Jehovah's Witnesses came to the door on their endless proselytizing crusade. (One of the downsides of living less than a mile from a Kingdom Hall.) My sister answered, and got rid of them by saying that we were all Wiccans.

Dad was pissed, because he thought that it would bring them back in an effort to convert the heathen. Whaddya know, he was right. Fuckers came back five times in the next two months. The last time, I ended up telling them "We're Catholics, my sister was joking, we're not interested in your drivel, don't come back."

Fortunately, we've all moved away since.

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-10-17 05:08pm

neoolong wrote:
Antares wrote:
salm wrote:does anybody know WHY exactly it´s 144.000 people and not, lets say, 144.001 people?
This is just a guess:

144000 = 12x12x1000

The dozen was very important in those days. Otherwise i'ts kinda hard to "invent" such a number i think.
Like most things, it would likely boil down to, "because God said so."

Cool ! That's means we can conclude AT LEAST one fact, that fundies and scientiest agree upon:

God is using a 10-based mathematical system or some other based on 2,3,5 (144000 = 2^7*3^2x5^3)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-17 06:33pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Maybe the church I use to belong to was some sort of off shoot. Because the relentless JWs that most of you people are talking about...well I never met them.

My church did the door to door thing but in Stofsks case he would have been black listed by MY church. However, just because members from my church would never go to his house again doesn't mean members from other JW churchs wouldn't. Do you think they have a database of names? LOL they probably should but it is silly to think that they do.

The JW I knew were loopy for one reason...that's believing in god. Every religion is like that though....

Every religion also has its extremists who misinterpret the teachings....JWs are not a special case at all. However, like I said maybe the church I use to belong to had a bit of sense to them.

Oh for fuck's sake, don't give me this apologist bullshit. The OFFICIAL JW PRINTED FUCKING LITERATURE tells them to disrespect the anthem and the flag, refuse to go to birthday parties, refuse to recognize things like Halloween and Christmas, refuse blood transfusions, go door-to-door, etc. They have an official "ranking system" in which people who bother the most people in their homes and devote virtually their whole lives to the church are elevated to star status and called "Witness Pioneers". Don't give me this bullshit about JWs not being more antisocial or extreme than other Christian church denominations.

As I said before, the word "cult" is sort of meaningless. But you're trying to pretend that JWs are not more extreme or antisocial than other Christian churches, and that's just pure Grade-A 100% apologist bullshit. "Not a special case at all" ... yeah, right

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-10-17 10:31pm

Antares wrote: This is just a guess:

144000 = 12x12x1000

The dozen was very important in those days. Otherwise i'ts kinda hard to "invent" such a number i think.

The original quote actually implies that it would be 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel, IIRC. Many Christians in fact believe that in addition to Christians 144,000 of the most faithful and godly Jews will be taken up to heaven as well; generally a sign of a loony group from far out of the "mainstream" is the claim that the figure applies to Christians.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-10-17 10:38pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Antares wrote: This is just a guess:

144000 = 12x12x1000

The dozen was very important in those days. Otherwise i'ts kinda hard to "invent" such a number i think.
The original quote actually implies that it would be 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel, IIRC. Many Christians in fact believe that in addition to Christians 144,000 of the most faithful and godly Jews will be taken up to heaven as well; generally a sign of a loony group from far out of the "mainstream" is the claim that the figure applies to Christians.

Yay for the Duchess. That is indeed where the 144,000 comes from. Although most christian sects do not believe that, IIRC.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-10-17 11:41pm

Rye wrote:I'd say catholicism possibly borders on cult-status, what with the poverty the priests are supposed live in, but I wouldn't really call them extremist, not in the same way Heaven's Gate or the Davidians or JWs were, anyway.

The meaning of the vow of poverty has changed somewhat over the centuries. My priest has a laptop, a decent car, a digital camera, etc. What he doesn't do is hoard wealth (not that I have a problem with wealth-hoard). It's not as if they sleep in cardboard boxes and live in rags, they just aren't supposed to be rich.

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