Child porn

[General Zod]

You can't control your desires.

We desire things because we want to consume or experience them. Wanting something however is naturally connected to our judgement, which itself is built around morals. If you desire something you knew was immoral or wrong [for whatever reason], then you would nautrally ask yourself "why waste time desiring something which isn't good?". So by questioning your desires, by logically showing they are wrong, you can stop them.

you're treating desire as though it's a conscious choice. acting on a desire is definitely not the same as simply desiring it. i suppose you'd argue that you actually have control over which women you desire then? as an example, i could desire to stab george bush in the eye repeatedly with a sharp knife. but i'm in complete control over my actual actions as to whether or not i do.

Merely your actions. Seeking help won't CHANGE pedophiles, but it would prevent them from actiong out their desires.

Your argument trips on the unproven conclusion that we don't control our own desires. Who does then?

so would you say you chose to be straight then? sexual desire/urge/orientation isn't really something that can be controlled or chose. what you do with that desire can however.

[The Cleric]

How is this thread on the top of the list for me?

[fgalkin]

You can't control your desires.

We desire things because we want to consume or experience them. Wanting something however is naturally connected to our judgement, which itself is built around morals. If you desire something you knew was immoral or wrong [for whatever reason], then you would nautrally ask yourself "why waste time desiring something which isn't good?". So by questioning your desires, by logically showing they are wrong, you can stop them.

Such a nice little theory. Too bad the facts disagree, because if it were true, homosexuality, unrequited love, crimes of passion, etc would not exist.

Merely your actions. Seeking help won't CHANGE pedophiles, but it would prevent them from actiong out their desires.

Your argument trips on the unproven conclusion that we don't control our own desires. Who does then?

The biological processes in our brains. We merely whether to act them out.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[BoredShirtless]

You can't control your desires.

We desire things because we want to consume or experience them. Wanting something however is naturally connected to our judgement, which itself is built around morals. If you desire something you knew was immoral or wrong [for whatever reason], then you would nautrally ask yourself "why waste time desiring something which isn't good?". So by questioning your desires, by logically showing they are wrong, you can stop them.

you're treating desire as though it's a conscious choice.

I've logically explained why that is so. It's right there in my paragraph above.

acting on a desire is definitely not the same as simply desiring it.

Right.

i suppose you'd argue that you actually have control over which women you desire then?

Of course. Some guys desire Asians, some blondes, whatever. I don't have a preference, I desire all woman. Attraction is another issue. Attraction requires a different set of controls because it brings other things into the equation like pheramones; "chemistry".

But don't confuse "attraction" with "desire". Are pedophiles attracted to children? Some may be. But they can control that attraction too, if they wanted too.

as an example, i could desire to stab george bush in the eye repeatedly with a sharp knife. but i'm in complete control over my actual actions as to whether or not i do.

Right.

so would you say you chose to be straight then?

Well I didn't have to chose, because the desire to sleep with men isn't there. Nor do I feel any physical attraction to them.

sexual desire/urge/orientation isn't really something that can be controlled or chose. what you do with that desire can however.

Partially right. Sexual desire can always be controlled, but probably not choosen. I really don't know, because I never had to chose.

[BoredShirtless]

Such a nice little theory. Too bad the facts disagree, because if it were true, homosexuality, unrequited love, crimes of passion, etc would not exist.

Too bad you can't distinguish between "attraction" and "desire". And I just love the way you bring up "crimes of passion" as if a criminal is somehow not in control and therefore absolved from responsibility if they loved the victim. And what the hell does a "passion crime" have to do with desire, attraction or pedophilia?

The biological processes in our brains. We merely whether to act them out.

We act out the biological processes in our brains....who would have thought!

[The_Last_Rebel]

Kids are supposed to be innocent. Anytime I hear about someone harming a child I want to see that person impaled up the ass.

That said, our society has gotten kind of fucked up about things like this. Up until about a hundred years ago, it wasn't unheard of for 12 or 13 year-olds getting married. All most people got back then was an 8th grade education, then they went to work on a farm or learned a trade. It was legal back then because when those laws were made, the average life expectancy wasn't very high. A girl could get married as soon as she was of child-bearing age.

And back then, I think people matured faster, and took on more responsibilities than kids of the past few generations.

I read this book set during the Hundred Years War, which had these two minor characters, a boat captain and his wife. He was in his late 30s or so, and she was 13. She was writting as quite mature, they both loved each other and cared for one another, and he seemed to be a decent husband.

Nowadays his ass would be thrown in jail, and she'd likely be made to see a psychologist

Our modern society allows children to have leisure, and aside from schoolwork, aren't given that many responsibilities. Most people of the past few generations (1920s onward) didn't meet their spouse or S/O until that were in their late teens or early twenties. And we don't really mature until we get around 17-21. Especially when it comes to sex and relationships. And in some cases when we're older than that.

[Korvan]

Just like the war on drugs and terrorism, a war on pedophilia can't be won by reacting to events once they have occured. As a society we need to come up with workable solutions and create an environment in which a pedophile can feel safe to come forward and ask for help.

Huh? It already is safe. Just make an appointment with a shrink.

Right, but shrinks don't have any effective methods to deal with pedophilia presently. We just had a case recently involving a young man who went to a shirnk about his urges. He was told just to masturbate to relive them. He is now serving time for the rape and murder of a child.

Help for pedophiles needs to happen at a community level, but that won't happen until society stops condemning these people for what they are. (I do condemn them for their actions). I'm basing this on the type of pedophile who tends to be an outcast. I believe that repression and isolation greatly increase the chances of them harming a child.

The social-outcast type is the type we usually hear about after they attack, but they aren't the only type out there. Every now and again, I hear about organized rings of pedophiles who traffic in child porn and even children themselves. These folks include otherwise respected members of society amoung their ranks, doctors, lawyers, ever law enforcement officials. I cannot describe the burning anger I feel towards them. To commit an atrocity is one thing, but to try and institutionalize atrocities is something entirely else.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In Utah I believe sex with a child is anyone under the age if 14. Sex with a minor is anyone over the age of 14 but under the age of 17. It has been a while since I looked at the statute so I may be off a bit.

I bring this up because your state may have different levels. Sex with a child is a lot more serious than sex with a minor. Your state may differ..

Why does sex with a child interest these people? I believe it has something to do with some abuse in their past life that they now fantasize about. They were abused sexually when they were children and now they get off on it.

[The_Last_Rebel]

Here's one for ya: In Mississippi you can get married when you're 15 but can't have sex until you're 16.

[Zor]

Here's one for ya: In Mississippi you can get married when you're 15 but can't have sex until you're 16.

This is a classic example of Southern Logic...

Making guns Extrodenary easy to get to decress Crime.

Drop a few thousand bombs on a nation to improve it.

Suport US troops by sending them into a nation full of people who want them dead.

Calling Global warming and Nicoteen addiction/smoking causing Lung Cancer "Junk Science" but suport teaching Creationism.

That place is full of Hyper conserivitve Retards.

[Trytostaydead]

I dunno about where you guys live.. but at least in the the US..

Nudity in of itself is not pornography. We'd bust too many entire college dorms then for "CP."

I'm sure though other nations have looser or tighter laws than that. But when I hear about CP arrests, they're usually the result of a major takedown after they infiltrated an organization, a fortuitous discovery, or in connection with the Russian mafia setting up websites and people using their credit card (like our assistant DA did).

[Darth Wong]

We desire things because we want to consume or experience them. Wanting something however is naturally connected to our judgement, which itself is built around morals. If you desire something you knew was immoral or wrong [for whatever reason], then you would nautrally ask yourself "why waste time desiring something which isn't good?". So by questioning your desires, by logically showing they are wrong, you can stop them.

you're treating desire as though it's a conscious choice.

I've logically explained why that is so. It's right there in my paragraph above.

Ah no, you just STATED your belief that it is so. You have not explained how you have proven that sexual desire is voluntary rather than involuntary, nor have you proven your assertion that you can nullify an instinctive impulse such as desire by analyzing it logically.

And don't give me this "attraction vs desire" hairsplitting; this thread tangent started because you claimed that a pedophile should be able to just decide his pedophilia away, thus making the precise word choices irrelevant to the point. He can decide NOT TO ACT on it, but unfortunately, he can't just decide not to be a pedophile.

[BoredShirtless]

Ah no, you just STATED your belief that it is so. You have not explained how you have proven that sexual desire is voluntary rather than involuntary,

Well.....if there are people out there who are born with it [your instinctive impulse below], then right, you can't stop an instinctive impulse by analysing it. The impulse will arrive, even if the person never acts on it.

But if the pedophile starts to become attracted to children due to <insert circumstances here>, then they can stop and eventually reverse their desires because it isn't instinctive. It was an acquired attraction, and anything acquired can be let go.

nor have you proven your assertion that you can nullify an instinctive impulse such as desire by analyzing it logically.

See above. I think there are two types of sexual desires: the one you were born with [instinctive], and two an acquired desire. I was refering to "analysing logically" the second, not the first.

[BoredShirtless]

And if you try coming back with "all desires are instinctive", don't bother. There are homosexuals out there who stopped feeling attracted to guys and switched to woman, and I'm sure probably sure vice versa.

[Darth Wong]

And if you try coming back with "all desires are instinctive", don't bother. There are homosexuals out there who stopped feeling attracted to guys and switched to woman, and I'm sure probably sure vice versa.

Wow, behavioural changes = elimination of desire now? How do you explain the reversion rate of these "changes", despite the massive religious indoctrination required?

People can even overcome the instinct for self-preservation through indoctrination, so don't give me this bullshit about how you've proven sexual desire to be voluntary by showing that people can be trained to change their behaviour.

[BoredShirtless]

Damn the lack of editing. Anyway, even if all sexual desires are instinctive, the fact a homosexual can stop feeling attracted to guys shows that instincts can be overwritten. So then the question is, how can we "bottle" the method, change it here and there, and apply it to pedophiles?

It's just occured to me that we are not born with ALL our instincts. Some may be the product of the cummilation of some of our life events. And if that's the case for sexual desire, then if you analyse it enough, you could potentially even brainwash yourself into reversing the acquired instinct.

[General Zod]

In Utah I believe sex with a child is anyone under the age if 14. Sex with a minor is anyone over the age of 14 but under the age of 17. It has been a while since I looked at the statute so I may be off a bit.

I bring this up because your state may have different levels. Sex with a child is a lot more serious than sex with a minor. Your state may differ..

Why does sex with a child interest these people? I believe it has something to do with some abuse in their past life that they now fantasize about. They were abused sexually when they were children and now they get off on it.

and i suppose you could provide some type of proof that all pedophiles were abused as children? if not then your theory simply doesn't work.

[Darth Wong]

Damn the lack of editing. Anyway, even if all sexual desires are instinctive, the fact a homosexual can stop feeling attracted to guys shows that instincts can be overwritten.

That's not a "fact", pinhead.

[BoredShirtless]

And if you try coming back with "all desires are instinctive", don't bother. There are homosexuals out there who stopped feeling attracted to guys and switched to woman, and I'm sure probably sure vice versa.

Wow, behavioural changes = elimination of desire now?

Not all the time, but if you believe that some people are born with the desire to be attracted to children, and some acquire that attraction, then for the acquired case, behavioural changes can change desire.

How do you explain the reversion rate of these "changes", despite the massive religious indoctrination required?

The reversion rate of what changes?

People can even overcome the instinct for self-preservation through indoctrination, so don't give me this bullshit about how you've proven sexual desire to be voluntary by showing that people can be trained to change their behaviour.

I've been very clear to seperate sexual desire into 2 categories: you're born with it, and it's acquired. And I've also been very clear that I don't believe the first type is voluntary.

[BoredShirtless]

Damn the lack of editing. Anyway, even if all sexual desires are instinctive, the fact a homosexual can stop feeling attracted to guys shows that instincts can be overwritten.

That's not a "fact", pinhead.

Dude, yes it is.

[Montcalm]

Damn the lack of editing. Anyway, even if all sexual desires are instinctive, the fact a homosexual can stop feeling attracted to guys shows that instincts can be overwritten.

That's not a "fact", pinhead.

Dude, yes it is.

You forgot those are called Bi

[Darth Wong]

Damn the lack of editing. Anyway, even if all sexual desires are instinctive, the fact a homosexual can stop feeling attracted to guys shows that instincts can be overwritten.

That's not a "fact", pinhead.

Dude, yes it is.

That "burden of proof" thing doesn't occur to you, does it?

[UCBooties]

Boredshirtless, you said that there are cases where homosexuals cease to be attracted to members of their own sex. What this usually means is that they have succumbed to religious pressures to re-suppress their desires and emulate a more “appropriate” lifestyle. This does not mean that they have ceased to have such desires, only that they refuse to acknowledge them. While it is true that some fetishes are derived from past experience, the vast majority do seem to be coded in at birth. Your generalizations seem a bit too broad considering this.

[Kamakazie Sith]

and i suppose you could provide some type of proof that all pedophiles were abused as children? if not then your theory simply doesn't work.

Absolutely! So far I haven't heard of anything better that explains it besides some form of mental retardation or other handicap.

Link

Despite the widespread incidence of childhood sexual abuse, there is insufficient investigation into the childhood sexual history of perpetrators. In addition, there is little published on the specific similarities between childhood and adult sexual histories. The present study investigates the incidence of childhood sexual abuse in a carefully characterized sample of male pedophiles compared with a demographically similar control group. Concordance between and cognitive distortions about characteristics of childhood abuse and pedophilic behavior are also studied. Twenty men with pedophilia, heterosexual type were compared with 24 demographically similar, healthy male control subjects on a questionnaire specifically designed to assess childhood sexual history in pedophiles. Sixty percent of pedophiles compared with 4% of control subjects reported adult sexual advances as a child. Seventy-five percent of pedophiles and 22% of control subjects reported a first sexual encounter before age 14 years. About 60% concordance was found between acts experienced as a child and perpetrated as an adult. Finally, numerous inconsistencies throughout the questionnaire add preliminary support for the role of cognitive distortions with regard to childhood and adult sexual history. The present findings replicate the elevated rate of childhood sexual abuse found among pedophiles and are consistent with the notion of a causative relationship between early childhood abuse and later pedophilic behavior.

[General Zod]

and i suppose you could provide some type of proof that all pedophiles were abused as children? if not then your theory simply doesn't work.

Absolutely! So far I haven't heard of anything better that explains it besides some form of mental retardation or other handicap.

Link

>snip<

the report itself said there wasn't sufficient evidence. the fact that various pedophiles didn't have or report any child abuse doesn't lead that it's a direct cause. it might play some part towards their disposition to it, but it isn't necessarily a cause.