Why is Facism Sexy?

[Psycho Smiley]

It's cool in our internal fantasy-lands. It's fun to imagine ruling an entire empire by sheer force of will. Even if you aren't at the top, it's fun if you get to crush the enemy. And hell yes, the uniforms, symbols, and other bits are badass. But most of us recognize that, in the real world, someone's on the receiving end. Most likely ourselves, one way or the other. And that's when most people get turned off.

[joatsimeon]

I think you've brought up areally good point here, people only like the idea of facism/pseudo-facism if they don't have to face up to what it really means. Once its described to them how the governments soldiers are killing people up close and personal it becomes more real, it's much easier to accept the murder of human beings when you can't see it happening.

-- well, yeah, that was one of the points when I did the Draka series; here's the realistic consequences of the power-fantasy.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I dont actually root for the Empire or IoM. I LOVE the stories, and i like them as far as they are, to me, extremely interesting. But I've always been the guy rooting for the Rebel Alliance, and a cheif proponent of the Tau Empire.

I dont thin fascism is 'sexy' in sci-fi, i find it highly interesting however i should say, to read about and ponder i mean. In practice it's usually quite horrible.

That and as others have said, the uniforms and banners and armbands and shit is cool looking. The Nazis were horrific murderous monsters for sure, no question, but you must admit they had some kickass unforms and had the whole Roman Empire banners at their rallies. It's very effective also to use them in stories, because when people see that they instantly think "Nazi=Evil" which is true and basically it means the enemy is obvious, clear and easily identified apart from the heroes. Like the Empire or IoM. It's obvious, it's easy, and visually it looks cool.

Of course as i said, in RL and in practice fascism has proven at all times to be incredibly brutal and dehumanizing. In sci-fi land it's effective, as a story telling tool it's effective, but thats about it.

[Ford Prefect]

This is easy: Space Marines and Star Destroyers. Ask me to describe the Imperium and it will sound as thus:

The Imperium? The Imperium is a Space Marine, legs braced, firing his bolter from the hip.

Ask me to describe the Galactic Empire and you'll get:

Go watch A New Hope you moron! Watch the big spaceship come out screen. That's the Galactic Empire.

They aren't particularly accurate answers, but that's why the sci-fi facists are sexy, not because the wield power with impunity. The Nazis would have more fans if they had Space Marines and Star Destroyers. Of course, they'd also rule the world.

[Dooey Jo]

I don't find fascism particulary sexy. In sci-fi they generally have the cooler weapons and ships, but that's not necessarily because they're fascists. Non-fascists can make cool things too (it's just that the writers almost never lets them).


Oh and: OMFG teh necromancy!11!1

[Ford Prefect]

Jesus Christ! How'd I miss that?

[Faram]

I did read something that might explain that.

Pharaphrased

"In the battle between god and evil, evil has more fun"

Not that many of us would like to live in an Evil soceitey but in SF and Fantasy they make for good villans.

[Spyder]

I mean look at our Impie lovers on this board then look at Bush - the closest we've come to a fascist president in my lifetime - and the visceral hatred that he inspires yet Palpatine who did manufacture a war, is responsible for trillions of deaths and the destruction of guardians of peace and order is 'cool'.

So what is it about that form of government (or one very much like it) that attracts people?

While there are many reasons, I should mention that I'd hold a radically different opinion of Bush if it turned out that any facism he was displaying was actually on purpose.

[Gandalf]

For me, the attraction of fascism is because of the sense of power and direction it gives. The idea that this will drive society to great heights and such.

Plus they seem to have fun.

[NecronLord]

Nobody roots for TOS Klingons against Kirk, because Kirk is a cool hero.

This is probably in no small part because the good guys have the cool stuff too. Smart uniforms (well, post WoK), check, awesome and iconic spaceships, check, Sense of purpouse, belonging, and drive? Check.

[Darth Wong]

Well, as long as I'm on to check PMs, I might as well respond to this little bit of thread necromancy:

Stravo asked why people often like fascists in movies but despise them in real-life. But there is no conflict.

People always like different things in fiction than they do in real-life. As more than one pundit has said, war makes for bad policy, but rattlingly good history. Similarly, peace makes for good policy, but boring reading. Our tastes in movie characters are similar: we like to watch characters in movies which are "cool" but which we would never want to be around in real-life. Conversely, we would never want to watch a movie about a guy who would be really cool in real-life because that would be boring. Who the fuck would want to watch a movie about a guy who wakes up, kisses his wife goodbye at the driveway, goes to work, does a good job, gets along well with his coworkers, goes home, barbecues a steak, and plays Scrabble with his family? Nobody, until somebody starts blowing things up or his wife and kids get killed and he turns into a vengeful psychopath.

[Shroom Man 777]

Or to put it simply, would YOU want to hang around with the T-1000 and have your eyeballs stabbed with a finger-spike?

[Fire Fly]

I enjoy watching large formations of troops goose stepping....its very hypnotic and almost awe inspiring. Watching Russian troops or NK troops kick their legs and march is almost awesome. Then you get the nifty uniforms with ostentatious medals, the hardware, and this sense of belonging, almost.

Side note: If anyone has ever been in Boy/Girl Scouts or been a Boys/Girls Stater, the sense of uniformity and strictness makes you blend in and makes you one of the 'guys.' You don't feel left out because you're forced to work together; this might not be a reason, in particular, for some to think facism is sexy, but it is a reason why many young people get swept up in it, especially in the past.

[Fire Fly]

Wow, I didn't realize what a 'mancy this thread was until I just got done posting.

[Joe]

It's appealing because people want to crush their enemies, see them driven, and hear the lamentations of their women.

[Siege]

Aside from what everybody else already said, the idea that there are simple solutions (read: brute force) to complicated problems. Problems with rebels? Blow up their planet! Don't like a guy? Bash his head in! Massive unemployment? Kill all the Jews! Admiral bothering you? Force-choke him! Not enough lebensraum? Blitzkrieg Europe!

And so on and so forth. I can see how that makes more interesting villains in sci-fi (oppressors who endlessly discuss with the senate would be rather boring to watch) and I can also understand how it can inspire people in RL.

[HemlockGrey]

It's appealing because people want to crush their enemies, see them driven, and hear the lamentations of their women.

You're six months behind on that one.

[Broomstick]

I think it's because most of the fascism fantacizers have fantasies where THEY are the strongman in control.... quite unlike real life where those same wankers would likely be among the first against the wall or marched off to re-education or worse.

[Admiral Valdemar]

There has to be conflict in any story to give a character purpose. If everything went well in stories, they'd be dull. I'm sure we can all imagine many films or books and the like where we've mentally (or even physically) blurted out "Don't do that, stupid!" because some character did something that not only caused the evil genius to take control of the timeline, but give the movie a greater than 30 minutes runtime or book more than 10 pages length.

It was said by one Brit actor (name escapes me currently) that he always preferred playing bad guys in the typical Hollywood style, since that place has a fetish for the English being inherently oppressive (chalk it off the the War of Independence and Lucas' Imperials). But the reason was, bad guys get to stay on top throughout 99% of the movie. Only at the end do they finally fail and only once are they really kicked in the groin and down for the count. The good guys have to suffer mostly else there's simply no way to empathise with some Mary Sue like super character. Fanfictions like Neon Exodus Evangelion are unique in making you vouch for the baddies even more, not because they're different, but because the good guys are just too damn good!

[Joe]

It's appealing because people want to crush their enemies, see them driven, and hear the lamentations of their women.

You're six months behind on that one.

Zing.

[18-Till-I-Die]

It was said by one Brit actor (name escapes me currently) that he always preferred playing bad guys in the typical Hollywood style, since that place has a fetish for the English being inherently oppressive (chalk it off the the War of Independence and Lucas' Imperials). But the reason was, bad guys get to stay on top throughout 99% of the movie. Only at the end do they finally fail and only once are they really kicked in the groin and down for the count. The good guys have to suffer mostly else there's simply no way to empathise with some Mary Sue like super character. Fanfictions like Neon Exodus Evangelion are unique in making you vouch for the baddies even more, not because they're different, but because the good guys are just too damn good!

Yes or to put it in other words, the Hero is only as cool as the Villain he fights. If the Villian is a moron or blows beyond all comprehension, then the Hero would be equally shitty to be comperable to him. If the Villian is a kickass, cool, methodical son of a bitch then the Hero looks quite cool taking him down, cause he's that much better.

It's good for the villain of a story to be on top for 99% of the thing, because the worse and worse it gets all the sweeter when the hero blasts the bad guys and the villain's plan collapses like a house of cards.

This is actually specifically what made Star Wars cool to me when i first saw it as a kid. I saw the Death Star and was like, "Oh no fucking way! No fucking way like six fighters as big as my mom's car are going to take down a MOBILE PLANET with a gun that blows up worlds!" then at the end, at the very last possible second, the proton torps fly into the exhaust port and BLAM good bey Death Star and you're like "YES! Eat it Imperial bitches!" cause they got exactlyw hat they diserved in a very cool way and the heroes triumphed even while faced with unimaginable odds. "One in a million shot" indeed.

[Tiriol]

It was said by one Brit actor (name escapes me currently) that he always preferred playing bad guys in the typical Hollywood style, since that place has a fetish for the English being inherently oppressive (chalk it off the the War of Independence and Lucas' Imperials).

I think that the Brit actor you're talking about is no other than Peter Cushing. I might be wrong, though, but I have heard from somewhere that he preferred to play the part of the bad guys and had told that in public.

But: I think that most people have nailed the reason already. Facism and other similar forms of tyrannical goverments are often so alluring because they conjure up images of power, glory, and military might. They like to portray themselves as invincible and it's not so hard to believe it (the Death Star for the Imperials, the success of the Blitzkrieg for the Third Reich, and so on). But as Darth Wong said, people usually feel attraction for them in fiction, but not in real-life. My history teachers back at school had a habit of saying that many Germans actually greatly disliked Hitler and his goverment, but were too afraid to voice their dislike and concerns. THAT is life under a totalitarian goverment - if you disagree with the policy of the rulers, you might end up beaten, imprisoned, or dead (possibly all three). I don't know about you, but I can safely "like" the Empire as work of fiction, but it would take a lot more to get me to live under the Emperor's dominion (unless I would be given a position of prestige, most unlikely). Who wants to have his entire life to be monitored and sometimes brutally oppressed?

So: Nazis cool on film with their wacky marches, not-so-cool in real life. Wong said it better than me, though. And 18-Till-I-Die had also a good point about the roles of villains and heroes.

Cheers.

[defanatic]

Yeah. The whole uniforms (and uniform troops) for the masses, the sound of unified boots on the pavement and so-on. And they are so much more civilised than the barbaric hero of the movie.

[Junghalli]

-- well, yeah, that was one of the points when I did the Draka series; here's the realistic consequences of the power-fantasy.

Doesn't SM Stirling go by the handle "joatsimeon" on a couple of message boards?
It couldn't be...
If it is somebody should point show him what we've done with his universe, it'll be interesting to see how he reacts.

[Crown]

Why is Facism Sexy?

Because everyone here suffers some from of delusions of grandure, megalomania, or detatchement from reality. We all think that we'd end up somewhere on top, rather than the more probable case of being a lower tier mudlicker.

Seriously though, a lot of us just day dream about it (in the context of fantasy and role playing), so we aren't lumped into the above catagory, but for those of us that actually push for it ...