Is The Pope A False Idol?

[Superman]

Show how it is different then, other than by scale. Your appeal to the populace doesn't work either.

Appeal to populace? Wrong, dude. You know Christianity came from Judaism, right? I am making a theological argument, not an "everyone does it" type of argument.

[Superman]

Show how it is different then, other than by scale. Your appeal to the populace doesn't work either.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Hello! I gave you exactly what you asked for. Try reading it, numbnuts.

[atkindave]

Catholics do not ask saints for anything other than to pass their prayers on to God. They do not worship them, they only ask the appropriate saint to hand deliver a prayer to God dealing with whatever that saint happens to have patronage over.

Differnence between you and a Saint is this, you've never performed any miracles. You're just another ignorant person talking out his ass about Catholicism. Next time why don't you go ask a Catholic about the in and outs of their faith before you make any judgements about it.

I have, and no argument on this point has ever satisfied me. You've come the closest though (props!) with the quote from catholic.com.

[Superman]

Catholics do not ask saints for anything other than to pass their prayers on to God. They do not worship them, they only ask the appropriate saint to hand deliver a prayer to God dealing with whatever that saint happens to have patronage over.

Differnence between you and a Saint is this, you've never performed any miracles. You're just another ignorant person talking out his ass about Catholicism. Next time why don't you go ask a Catholic about the in and outs of their faith before you make any judgements about it.

I have, and no argument on this point has ever satisfied me. You've come the closest though (props!) with the quote from catholic.com.

Then let me ask you something... What evidence do you want? I showed you that, dogmatically, Catholics themselves know that they ARE NOT WORSHIPPING SAINTS. From their own website! If your mind cannot be changed, then you are just another fundie screwball.

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, then if you have asked Catholics about why they ask saints to intercede on their behalf then you should understand that they do not worship them, only ask them for help in getting the message to God. You can argue it till you're blue in the face, but it still remains. Catholics do not worship saints. Wither you talked to a Catholic that doesn't know jack shit about their own faith or you're still talking out of your ass.

BTW, Superman gave the quotes from Catholic.com, not me.

[Aaron]

I feel a custom title coming on.

[atkindave]

Hello! I gave you exactly what you asked for. Try reading it, numbnuts.

I did. I would not have indicated so if I had not. I want to know how praying to a saint for intercession and giving thanks to him/her is different from worshipping said saint. What is the difference, functionally, between latria and dulia? Is it how one feels when one does it?

[Mr. Coffee]

I feel a custom title coming on.

Please tell me I'm not the one begging for it, Cpl Kendall, and if so, please point me back to the correct path of debating so I don't end up VI'd, or worse, WTPF'd.

[atkindave]

Ok, then if you have asked Catholics about why they ask saints to intercede on their behalf then you should understand that they do not worship them, only ask them for help in getting the message to God. You can argue it till you're blue in the face, but it still remains. Catholics do not worship saints. Wither you talked to a Catholic that doesn't know jack shit about their own faith or you're still talking out of your ass.

BTW, Superman gave the quotes from Catholic.com, not me.

Apologies. I did not realize I was getting flamed from two sides. I'm having too much fun just reading any replying at this point to realize where it's coming from.

[Superman]

Hello! I gave you exactly what you asked for. Try reading it, numbnuts.

I did. I would not have indicated so if I had not. I want to know how praying to a saint for intercession and giving thanks to him/her is different from worshipping said saint. What is the difference, functionally, between latria and dulia? Is it how one feels when one does it?

If you read it, then don't fucking act like you did not. This isn't hard, dude.

We talked at length about the veneration of relics and prayer to the saints. In pondering relics and their veneration, Mr. C. pointed out the dulia/latia distinction. Latia was a type of worship, reverence that Elohim alone deserved. Latia was a second level of honor ascribed to lesser things. Indeed, in the beginning of relic preservation the thought towards them was more like that of a precious family heirloom or like the bodies of sleeping loved ones buried nearby.

That is basicall it. I know fundies don't learn these things, so please try to read about this before you judge others.

[atkindave]

I have to go away now. my wife will be back from work shortly and I have things to get done before she arrives. Anyway, I meant no offense with my first post earlier, and thanks for the education.

[atkindave]

Anyway, please PM me with good websites on the subject (so I can look at them later). I may be ignorant about Catholicism but I don't want to be. I'll probably not convert, though.

[Superman]

I have to go away now. my wife will be back from work shortly and I have things to get done before she arrives. Anyway, I meant no offense with my first post earlier, and thanks for the education.

You didn't offend me. It's just that I'm tired of fundies making strawman arguments against everyone and everything. They are always out of ignorance... I know you probably feel that everyone but you and your church are going to hell, but how about educating yourself beyond your fundie Bible verses?

[Aaron]

Please tell me I'm not the one begging for it, Cpl Kendall, and if so, please point me back to the correct path of debating so I don't end up VI'd, or worse, WTPF'd.

No it would be "atkindave" and his refusal to see reason that would land the title.

[Perinquus]

Hello! I gave you exactly what you asked for. Try reading it, numbnuts.

I did. I would not have indicated so if I had not. I want to know how praying to a saint for intercession and giving thanks to him/her is different from worshipping said saint. What is the difference, functionally, between latria and dulia? Is it how one feels when one does it?

Think of it like this: Do you, or other religious people you know ask other religious people to pray for you? How many times have you heard, for example, a Christian who is sick ask his friends and family to pray for him?

That is essentially all Catholics are doing when they venerate saints and Mary. They are asking righteous people (just dead righteous people in this case) to pray for them. But even the fact that they are dead matters very little, because in Christian theology, when you die, you don't just end, and you can still be aware of what goes on here on earth. And it's even in the Bible that God hears prayers from the righteous, and if righteous people speak up for you, God may be swayed by their prayers. See 2 Thessalonians 3:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, and especially James 5:16. THere is abundant Biblical justification for the idea that it is good to have a righteous man or woman speak up for you to God. That is what Catholics are doing when they pray to saints. The only difference between that, and asking your pious, Protestant friend to pray for you is that one is dead and the other isn't. And as I said, to a devout Christian, the fact that the saint is dead doesn't at all mean that he isn't aware. So if praying to a saint to intercede for you with God is worship, so is asking your Godly Protestant great aunt to pray for you, because you're doing the same thing a Catholic does when he venerates a saint.

[Big Phil]

Please tell me I'm not the one begging for it, Cpl Kendall, and if so, please point me back to the correct path of debating so I don't end up VI'd, or worse, WTPF'd.

No it would be "atkindave" and his refusal to see reason that would land the title.

I've had similar discussions with fundie protestants who think Catholics worship the saints, have three gods (Father, Son, Holy Spirit are apparently three unique gods to some people), etc. I'm always amazed by the disinformation and misinformation that is disseminated.

One thing I've always thought was interesting is the justification for the Protestant Reformation. Protestants justify their rejection of the Catholic Church because of its immorality, abuse of power, etc., during the Middle Ages. They say the Church lost its way along the line, and Protestantism is an effort to return to Christianity's roots.

What's curious about this - well, I'll draw an analogy to try to make my point -

Cpl. Kendall is in the Canadian Army - he doesn't like the orders his general is giving because he thinks they're illegal, wrong, and may get a lot of people killed. As a result, he mutinies, and has enough support that he is able to start his own army, and has himself installed as General. Now there are two Canadian Armies, but only one actually has any authority - the other is filled by mutineers.

That's a like like Protestant religions - the Catholic Church is the direct line of succession from Peter, who was chosen by Jeebus to start the Church. Therefore, logically (I know, involving logic in a discussion of religion is pretty silly, but bear with me), anybody who rejects the Catholic Church is rejecting Jeebus' authority as the son of god.

[Darth Servo]

I don't think the Pope himself would be, any more than a fundie's local preacher would be. The Crucifix all over the curch might be a different story though.

[jegs2]

I've heard lots of fundies especially here, claim that the Pope is a false idol and that Catholics are all going to hell for worshipping the Pope. Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Pope considered Gods represenitive on Earth? And they merely seek his guidance?

IMO, the pope can become a false idol to others who fail to see him as the Catholic Church intends, but he is not inherently one. And to anyone telling anybody they are going to Hell for anything, it is not the Christian's place to act the part of eternal judge:

Matthew 7
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

[General Zod]

Hello! I gave you exactly what you asked for. Try reading it, numbnuts.

I did. I would not have indicated so if I had not. I want to know how praying to a saint for intercession and giving thanks to him/her is different from worshipping said saint. What is the difference, functionally, between latria and dulia? Is it how one feels when one does it?

it's not all that difficult to understand the difference. think of it like this. you want to talk to a CEO in a big company, but you know that regular people have a difficult time getting through to him. so you speak to the CEO's assistant about it, who -is- more accessible, and the assistant relays the message for you. you're not giving the message to the assistant, they simply make it easier to get the message to the person you want to speak with. it's basically the same thing with god and saints.

[Darth Servo]

it's not all that difficult to understand the difference. think of it like this. you want to talk to a CEO in a big company, but you know that regular people have a difficult time getting through to him. so you speak to the CEO's assistant about it, who -is- more accessible, and the assistant relays the message for you. you're not giving the message to the assistant, they simply make it easier to get the message to the person you want to speak with. it's basically the same thing with god and saints.

Why is an onmipotent being who has all the time in the universe so "inaccessable"?

[General Zod]

it's not all that difficult to understand the difference. think of it like this. you want to talk to a CEO in a big company, but you know that regular people have a difficult time getting through to him. so you speak to the CEO's assistant about it, who -is- more accessible, and the assistant relays the message for you. you're not giving the message to the assistant, they simply make it easier to get the message to the person you want to speak with. it's basically the same thing with god and saints.

Why is an onmipotent being who has all the time in the universe so "inaccessable"?

fuck if i know. but that's apparently the line of reasoning i har from most christians.

[Nick Lancaster]

And to anyone telling anybody they are going to Hell for anything, it is not the Christian's place to act the part of eternal judge:

Matthew 7
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Actually, it's 'Judge not, lest ye be judged in the same measure.' Implying that if you chide someone for being stupid (ahhhh, we're all gonna burn in hell for posting on SD.net), the Heavenly version of 'This is Your Life' will feature every moment of stupidity you ever had.

I'm also fond of what Christ says a few verses later:

'On that day, not all who cry, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom, but only those who do the Will of My Father in Heaven. And there will be those who cry, 'Did we not do great works, prophesy, and drive out demons in your name?' And I will say unto them, 'Away from me, you evildoers*, I know you not!'

* written as 'you who practice lawlessness' in some versions.

[jegs2]

Actually, it's 'Judge not, lest ye be judged in the same measure.'

Well, thanks for the King James translation, but I tend to like the NIV better, which is what I quoted.

[Nick Lancaster]

Actually, it's 'Judge not, lest ye be judged in the same measure.'

Well, thanks for the King James translation, but I tend to like the NIV better, which is what I quoted.

I tend to use KJV for quotations, since it bothers the Fundies more. They're very dismissive of the NIV.

[Darth Servo]

I tend to use KJV for quotations, since it bothers the Fundies more. They're very dismissive of the NIV.

They're dismissive of ANYTHING that doesn't completely comply with their beliefs. You know that. I've actually encountered anti-NIV fundies who would use the NIV when it supported their beliefs better than the KJV did.

These are people who say even other CHRISTIANS are going to burn in hell forever for not interpreting every last verse exactly the same way they do.

Remind me again who it was who said the only thing worse to a fundamentalist than being a non-believer is being the wrong kind of believer.