What motivates fundamentalists?

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AdmiralKanos
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Frank_Scenario wrote:My hunch is that fundamentalists are motivated by the same thing that motivates atheists to attack them. They believe (regardless of the validity of their belief) that they know the truth. They want others to gain this knowledge.
The difference being, of course, that their truth is self-referential, ie- you must accept it before it can possibly make any sense.
If this means being aggressive, being rude, or coming off as an idiot, so be it. It happens to be the case that most fundamentalists are all of these things, but I know some that are none of them; they are much more pleasant to be around.
It is impossible to be a fundie and not be at least partially composed of Idiot.
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Post by EmperorMing »

Frank_Scenario wrote:My hunch is that fundamentalists are motivated by the same thing that motivates atheists to attack them. They believe (regardless of the validity of their belief) that they know the truth. They want others to gain this knowledge. If this means being aggressive, being rude, or coming off as an idiot, so be it. It happens to be the case that most fundamentalists are all of these things, but I know some that are none of them; they are much more pleasant to be around.

Note that their motivations are independent from the validity of their beliefs.
Being rude, pushy, and asshole, and generally shoving it in someone's face is a good way to get the kind of backlash that they commonly receive. Not to mention that higher brain functions seem to be disposed of as they think what they believe is a catch-all for everything.

I have better things to do than to believe in the interpretation of things that another human believes in, ie, organised religeon and such.

No wonder I hear that this is supposed to be personal.
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Post by beyond hope »

Two requirements:

#1) a massive inferiority complex

Why? Because the central tenant of the Pentehostiles is that you are a wretched sinner who deserves to burn in hell, regardless of how you've lived your life. Imagine how low your opinion of yourself has to be to embrace a belief that you deserve to be tortured for eternity. As an aside, it's no surprise that you see so much hypocritical behavior out of the fundies: that sort of belief serves as an enabling system, where the believer thinks "it's okay, Jesus understands that I cheat/beat my wife/drink/et cetera because I'm a sinner. I'm forgiven."

#2) a hatred of anything different

This part is obvious from listening to people like Jack Chick, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell: not even other Christian denominations are Christian in their eyes.
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

I say gullibility is part of it. They'll believe anything, and when some JW knocks on their door, they'll buy everything he says. That's why America has so many Creationists and people who think the Moon landing was faked.

For some other fundies, they were probably born in a fundie household, sent to fundie schools all their life, only allowed to watch fundie TV and read fundie books, basically not allowed to be with non-fundies. So, they become bigots, and refuse to change. If they saw a non-fundie, they probably would have changed, and not have become fundies.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

most fundies that i know were born to it. they were forced to go to church and they had it beat into their brains since they were no age. It's kinda hard to not be brainwashed when you have that kinda constant bombardment.
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

The way I look at it, fundamentalism is basically a reactionary phenomenon, at least among the fundies I've met. They see what they think of as the erosion of traditional values (which I can understand, to a certain degree) and they push as hard as they can in the opposite direction. The real problems are that they first of all don't discriminate between good changes and bad ones, and second that they insist on dragging everyone they can along with them.

I suppose those two factors are the only things that keep me from being labeled a fundie moron. I think certain changes are good, e.g. educating against misogyny, while certain changes are bad, e.g. the rise of misandry in the media and in the legal system. And of course, my way of life is my own; if you feel the same way, good for you -- if not, I'm not going to try to talk you into it. I know my views on fundamentalism and religion in general aren't too popular here, so I hope you can forgive me if I occasionally feel compelled to put in my two cents on it anyway. :)
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Post by Johonebesus »

I think another reason is that they do not have true religious experiences. For many people, "faith" is based upon a spiritual experience. One perceives the divine, and then turns to a religion to help explain or give context to that perception. I think that few fundamentalists are capable of such an experience, and so to believe in God they must have an idol to worship, and for this they use the Bible. In a way, they are almost atheists. They cannot believe in God without some physical or material evidence, so they reject reason and choose, as a matter of preference, to believe that the Bible is literally true. After all, if the Bible is in any way wrong about any little detail, how can we be sure it is right about anything? And if the Bible is the only way one knows God, then without the Bible, there is no faith. I think the saddest statement in Christianity is "Jesus loves me, this I know/ For the Bible tells me so."
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Post by Darth Wong »

Fundamentalism is a simple result of brainwashing. Nothing more. Without brainwashing, nobody independently finds a path to Christianity or any other specific religious belief, never mind the complex doctrines and dogmas of any particular religious text.
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Post by Utsanomiko »

Not to mention that nobody actually 'perceives' the divine. usually they're either unable to accurately analyze odd perceived phenomena, or they're purely delusional. It cracks me up to hear people say they 'know' God, who is supposed to be unseen and known only through blind faith.
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

Darth Wong wrote:Fundamentalism is a simple result of brainwashing. Nothing more. Without brainwashing, nobody independently finds a path to Christianity or any other specific religious belief, never mind the complex doctrines and dogmas of any particular religious text.
This is also true; perceptions can easily be manipulated over time, and I have no doubt that fundamentalism propagates itself from generation to generation. I think, though, that a better question is, "How did fundamentaslism start in this country? What are its origins?"

This mystifies me; according to the Bible, the Jews are God's "chosen people," we've discussed in another thread that the biblical god has been "playing favorites" in demonstration of this throughout the Bible -- so how did American fundamentalists miss the fact that they've basically been inodcrinated into a religion that automatically makes them second-class citizens in its little heirarchy? Bizarre.

EDIT: Sorry about the typos; having trouble with my eyes this afternoon.
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Post by Johonebesus »

Darth Wong wrote:Fundamentalism is a simple result of brainwashing. Nothing more. Without brainwashing, nobody independently finds a path to Christianity or any other specific religious belief, never mind the complex doctrines and dogmas of any particular religious text.
I have seen people who come from liberal Christian or even non religious households suddenly turn to fundamentalism. I don't think they are brainwashed right away. It seems to me that these people desperately want to believe in God, but need some kind of material proof of His existence, which of course does not exist, so they turn to someone who tells them that the Bible is literally true and science and reason are flawed. It takes a while for them to become well versed in all the fundamentalist rhetoric, but the initial decision can come with only a little encouragement from a recruiter. And it often happens during adolescence when they are searching for something to give their lives meaning.

While it is certainly true that no-one comes to possess detailed religious doctrine without being taught it by a church, one can and often does decide which sort of a doctrine to seek out. Why should a man raised in a liberal Catholic household decide to reject all he has been taught and become a born-again baptist? It is not brainwashing. It's his desire for faith bumping up against logic. If the former is stronger, he will seek out or become easy prey for evangelical recruiters. Nobody independently travels the path of a particular religion, but they may independently seek a path, and independently decide which path looks the best.
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Johonebesus wrote:I have seen people who come from liberal Christian or even non religious households suddenly turn to fundamentalism.
I have met many fundamentalists, and while they often claim to have come from a non-religious background, I have found that upon further investigation, this always turns out to be a lie. There is always a significant religious influence on their early upbringing.
I don't think they are brainwashed right away. It seems to me that these people desperately want to believe in God, but need some kind of material proof of His existence, which of course does not exist, so they turn to someone who tells them that the Bible is literally true and science and reason are flawed.
Of course, rank stupidity helps too.
It takes a while for them to become well versed in all the fundamentalist rhetoric, but the initial decision can come with only a little encouragement from a recruiter. And it often happens during adolescence when they are searching for something to give their lives meaning.
It still takes someone who is predisposed toward that particular form of idiocy, which in turn requires a certain level of brainwashing.
While it is certainly true that no-one comes to possess detailed religious doctrine without being taught it by a church, one can and often does decide which sort of a doctrine to seek out. Why should a man raised in a liberal Catholic household decide to reject all he has been taught and become a born-again baptist?
He has been brainwashed to believe that truth comes from the Bible. That is the brain bug that can grow into fundamentalism.
It is not brainwashing. It's his desire for faith bumping up against logic.
No, it is brainwashing. No one, even with a desperate desire for faith, is willing to entertain the notion of the Bible being literally true unless they've been indoctrinated to some extent in that particular notion. It is so wildly stupid that no thinking person can possibly accept it unless they've been "prepared".
If the former is stronger, he will seek out or become easy prey for evangelical recruiters. Nobody independently travels the path of a particular religion, but they may independently seek a path, and independently decide which path looks the best.
And no one ever decides that Biblical literalism is the best unless they are already predisposed to think that way. Even a child can see the monstrous flaws in Biblical literalism if its "God-breathed" nature has not been indoctrinated into him.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

So, Mike, just to clarify; do you believe all Christians have been brainwashed, or just the fundies?
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Post by Raptor 597 »

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Frank_Scenario wrote:My hunch is that fundamentalists are motivated by the same thing that motivates atheists to attack them. They believe (regardless of the validity of their belief) that they know the truth. They want others to gain this knowledge.
The difference being, of course, that their truth is self-referential, ie- you must accept it before it can possibly make any sense.
If this means being aggressive, being rude, or coming off as an idiot, so be it. It happens to be the case that most fundamentalists are all of these things, but I know some that are none of them; they are much more pleasant to be around.
It is impossible to be a fundie and not be at least partially composed of Idiot.
True. Though the Fundies with High IQ ae go vehment on you logically when evolution is brought up. Everything else apples in science except that.
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Cyril wrote:So, Mike, just to clarify; do you believe all Christians have been brainwashed, or just the fundies?
All Christians are at least mildly brainwashed; it is a BELIEF SYSTEM. A certain level of brainwashing is inherent in the definition. The question of whether it is dangerous is one of degrees, not on/off. You will find that most things in life are a matter of degrees.
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Post by Raptor 597 »

Letse see:
Brainwashing
Happily goes around not worrying about the afterlife, it's all worked out
Lies
Deceit
Belief you are doing good, stamping out evil
Destroying Vehment Apre worshipers as YECers put it
Trust in 'God'
Just a few things that keep a Fundie going everyday.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

I don't see Christians as being brainwashed and deluded. Most Christians can accept that the bible is flawed in certain points. My mother is a christian but she is far from brainwashed, She enjoys her life without steaming at the gills knowing her son bashes fundies for fun. In fact we have had some good debates over it. But fundies are the ones that are brainwashed. From the age of 0 they are bombarded by their parents and pastors etc. Young people are so impressionable that id you have enough screaming people in your face long enough you will begin to believe it.
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Post by Utsanomiko »

Young people can be so moronically gullible sometimes. I once had 4-6 people in my upper-classmen highschool physics class convinced (or at least unskeptical) that Franklin Rooselvelt was still techincally Govenor of New York.

And this was right after one of them asked if George W. Bush was still going to Govenor of Texas after getting elected as president, and several of them laughed and teased her about it. :roll: :roll:
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Post by The Dark »

Darth Pounder wrote:I don't see Christians as being brainwashed and deluded. Most Christians can accept that the bible is flawed in certain points. My mother is a christian but she is far from brainwashed, She enjoys her life without steaming at the gills knowing her son bashes fundies for fun. In fact we have had some good debates over it. <snip>
Heck, I'm a pre-Ministerial candidate and I enjoy tearing apart fundie arguments. My favorite professor (whose exams I'm supposed to be studying for right now) is debating two bishops right now, arguing that both of them are theologically wrong. Even moderate/liberal Christians dislike the fundmentalist view, because it turns people against all Christianity, as some people here could attest to. Rabid fundies (an oxymoron, but allow me the English error) are just like rabid Trekkies or rabid anybody else. Reason has no place in their worldview, and they are right and everyone else is wrong. It's rather pathetic, when you look at it from a certain perspective.
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The Dark wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:I don't see Christians as being brainwashed and deluded. Most Christians can accept that the bible is flawed in certain points. My mother is a christian but she is far from brainwashed, She enjoys her life without steaming at the gills knowing her son bashes fundies for fun. In fact we have had some good debates over it. <snip>
Heck, I'm a pre-Ministerial candidate and I enjoy tearing apart fundie arguments. My favorite professor (whose exams I'm supposed to be studying for right now) is debating two bishops right now, arguing that both of them are theologically wrong. Even moderate/liberal Christians dislike the fundmentalist view, because it turns people against all Christianity, as some people here could attest to. Rabid fundies (an oxymoron, but allow me the English error) are just like rabid Trekkies or rabid anybody else. Reason has no place in their worldview, and they are right and everyone else is wrong. It's rather pathetic, when you look at it from a certain perspective.
All Christians are brainwashed to a certain extent (I know this will raise some hackles, but a person who is never exposed to a word about Christianity until he's 30 would never accept any of it). But with fundies, the brainwashing is much stronger, to the point that it impedes their ability to function on an intellectual level.
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Post by Evil Sadistic Bastard »

Even the semi-brainwashed ones look upon non-believers as "unsaved" and worthy of pity. Fortunately the Christians I know are dogmatic rather than apologetic.
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All Christians are at least mildly brainwashed; it is a BELIEF SYSTEM. A certain level of brainwashing is inherent in the definition.
Of course, you are aware that all worldviews are belief systems, right? This includes atheism, deism, theism, skepticism, sollipsism, creationism, agnosticism, hedonism...
I know this will raise some hackles, but a person who is never exposed to a word about Christianity until he's 30 would never accept any of it
You say this despite the myriad of 30+ year-olds of uncivilized, tribal origins who have been reached by missionaries after never having heard of Christianity? Concession accepted.
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Post by Evil Sadistic Bastard »

The Apologist wrote: Of course, you are aware that all worldviews are belief systems, right? This includes atheism, deism, theism, skepticism, sollipsism, creationism, agnosticism, hedonism...
A worldview is a way of looking at the world and a belief system is a system of moral conduct. I can be an atheist (which I am not) and still believe in treating people nicely (which I do). Try not to confuse the two.


You say this despite the myriad of 30+ year-olds of uncivilized, tribal origins who have been reached by missionaries after never having heard of Christianity? Concession accepted.
Myriads? How about the missionaries who were KOS'ed for trespassing in tribal territory? Did they successfully convert the tribes they went out to? And considering that we don't know how far the conversions or what the African belief system was like (they could have just played along for a shiny crucifix is all) you cannot use this as a good example.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

The Apologist wrote:
All Christians are at least mildly brainwashed; it is a BELIEF SYSTEM. A certain level of brainwashing is inherent in the definition.
Of course, you are aware that all worldviews are belief systems, right? This includes atheism, deism, theism, skepticism, sollipsism, creationism, agnosticism, hedonism...
...stoicism, bestialism, economism, mongolism, technicism, anarchism, moronism, nationalism, racism, marxism, communism, capitalism, cyclism, altruism, morphism.

As always, the Apologist makes some more nitpicking. Mountain climbing is a belief system: the belief that you will climb a mountain.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

The Apologist wrote:You say this despite the myriad of 30+ year-olds of uncivilized, tribal origins who have been reached by missionaries after never having heard of Christianity? Concession accepted.
Like the aborigin that received the Good Book and was told that it was the word of God. The aborigin put it near his ear, and hearing nothing, threw it to the ground.

"The word of God is on the ground!" exclaimed the missionary. And his dogs proceeded to devour the aborigin.
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