"God" would be sadistic

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-10-15 05:51pm

The Guid wrote:Don't we have a topic similar to this every couple of weeks?

Seems that way to me. This "God" dude sure seems to be on the recieving end of a lot of hate around here... oddly enough chiefly by people who believe He doesn't actually exist.

As for the question yes, a completely omnipotent and omnipresent God would, by human standards, be an extremely callous entity because He would possess the capacity to end all suffering without effort but fail to do so. One could of course point out one of two things.
(1) It is possible that God is extremely powerful but not omnipotent.
(2) The fact that God appears callous toward us is realistically only to be expected because to a being that powerful humans would seem utterly insignificant. It would be like expecting a human to care about the suffering of the bacteria living on his grout. Of course, this argument runs into trouble with the whole Bible and religion thing.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-15 07:51pm

Lord of the Abyss wrote:
Akhlut wrote: My own answer would be that suffering would lead to an increased appreciation of the joys in life.
What if there are no joys ? What if someone has nothing but suffering ?

Well, if God exists and is all-merciful, then it might make Heaven seem that much better. Of course, I can't vouch for how pleased that person would be, but, that's the best answer I can give as devil's advocate.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-10-15 08:14pm

Akhlut wrote:My own answer would be that suffering would lead to an increased appreciation of the joys in life.

If god is all-powerful, he can make it so that that is not so. He can create an impossible situation where human beings are always supremely blissful, without having to deal with the crap that is life in the first place.

Also, as the best sci-fi comedy cartoon ever (Futurama) showed, a God who always intervenes just makes people dependent.

So? Since when is dependence on an entity that will never desert you bad? It is only harmful if that entity will not always be there to care for you, which is untrue of god.

Perhaps there's something requiring our independence and God would rather we earn it than it being handed out. Or perhaps there's unlimited reincarnation so everyone experiences everything. Or other, numerous scenarios. (once more, just playing the devil's advocate)

In other words, you intend to make up a fantastic variety of scenarios, all of which still involve god being an asshole, in attempt to prove your point.

If God simply initiated the Big Bang and just let everything occur, would he necessarily be responsible for someone's genetic code, especially if he kept his intervention as limited as possible?

Of course. He is still omniscient, correct? Therefore, by creating the universe, he, knowing the future, would be aware of every ounce of suffering that woul ever occur, from the Big Bang to proton decay. The only way that he would not be responsible for all the suffering is for him to not be all-knowing.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-15 08:24pm

That's about all I got wolveraptor, so I make my concession.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-15 08:40pm

When I imagine that there may actually be a God who created this universe, I get worried. If there is such a being, then he set up whatever initial circumstances there were that lead up the current ones. It's because of he that I'm living as I am now.

I start to wonder... am I part of some fucked up movie? Am I just a character in someone else's script, my life never really my own? Maybe some audience even takes delight in knowing that this is a thought of mine, and perhaps they laugh at me, never once thinking that they're subject to the exact same doubts. Makes me wonder who I could be in this movie... hero, worthy adversary, comic relief, annoyance? Am I perhaps just background? Am I even in the main feature, or am I half way around the world whilst the real audience has its eye on some place in China? Maybe my primary role in this movie is some fellow at a geeky webboard reading my typed out thoughts, and considering some thoughts himself.

Of course, you have to wonder, following this reasoning, if you can ever be real. If this is some deranged ass hole's movie, how can you wake up out of it? How can you step out of the screen and into whatever real world there is? How long will you be trapped in this movie? When it ends, will there be a big "The End" sign? Will it be a happy ending, some sort of resolution to some sort of problem?

Well, fuck you, hypothetical audience. Fuck you, and all that I stand for.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-10-16 08:19am

Junghalli wrote:
The Guid wrote:Don't we have a topic similar to this every couple of weeks?
Seems that way to me. This "God" dude sure seems to be on the recieving end of a lot of hate around here... oddly enough chiefly by people who believe He doesn't actually exist.

Indeed. It reminds me of a quote by C.S. Lewis on his reflection during his days as an athiest.

I was at that time living like many atheists; in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with him for creating a world. Why should creatures have the burden of existence forced on them without their consent?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-10-16 05:35pm

I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing.

It doesn't sound as if ever really stopped believing in God, if he was so caught up in this anger of his. In my limited experience, ex-Christian atheists sometimes spend a lot of mental effort actively rejecting God, which doesn't make a lot of sense from the perspective of someone like me, who has never really believed.

I feel bad for him, really. He really sounds like he was tormented.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-10-16 06:17pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Junghalli wrote:Seems that way to me. This "God" dude sure seems to be on the recieving end of a lot of hate around here... oddly enough chiefly by people who believe He doesn't actually exist.

Please. I wouldn't express hate for someone by posting on some random forum. I'd burn crosses or something. People don't hate god because they typed, "OMFG! G0dzors is teh fagitzors!!!!!1111oneonelevenshift+one"
They simply reflect that an omniscient, omnipotent God would be an asshole if he existed.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-10-17 10:07am

Anguirus wrote:
I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing.
It doesn't sound as if ever really stopped believing in God, if he was so caught up in this anger of his. In my limited experience, ex-Christian atheists sometimes spend a lot of mental effort actively rejecting God, which doesn't make a lot of sense from the perspective of someone like me, who has never really believed.

I feel bad for him, really. He really sounds like he was tormented.

Indeed he was. Before he converted back to Anglicanism in the 1930's-1940's, C.S. Lewis was quite angry at any notion of theism becuase of what he experienced as a little boy at his mother's death bed and his experiences as a soldier in the trenches during the Great War.

It was these two experiences that really forced him to call into question the existence of god.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-10-17 11:39pm

Darth Servo wrote:Usual fundie reply--an eternity of bliss in heaven will make all the injustices of this life seem trivial.

My Rebuttal: Fuck that! I want my bliss now, when I'm sure to get it and enjoy it, not in some fanciful afterlife crap where I can't ask for a refund! Expecting some kind of reward after you die is like taping, "SWINDLE ME!" on your back.

FREDDY THE FUNDIE SEZ: "But the LAWRD will reward you for your sufferin'! All y' hafta do IS TO ACCEPT JEEEEEEZIS AS YER SAY-BEER!! Plus, y' get to MAKE FUN OF SINNAHS as yer immediate reward!"

Although making fun of other people sounds appealing, I make fun of people who actually deserve it. Get thee behind me, fundie!

FREDDY THE FUNDIE: "IT'S 'GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!!' Put SAY-T'N behind you and accept the word of our LAWRD, JEEEEEEEEEZZZZISSSSS! Won't you join me in ETERNAL HEAVENLY BLISS?!!"

Quite frankly, sharing eternity with you and your kind fills me with revulsion and dread, so this does not sound like a deal to me. However, you're sure to enjoy the afterlife, so let me help you along!"

[DELETED SCENE OF UNIMAGINABLE CARNAGE]

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-17 11:47pm

Huh, that whole "get thee behind me Satan!" reminds me of something totally not safe for work.

To at least be on-topic here, I'm personally still trying to see what conclusion I can come to. My thing is that I think I'd be a bit more accepting of an assholish God than a brutal, meaningless universe. I have huge problems dealing with nihilism (usually gets me into a huge depression that lasts for a while).

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-18 01:01am

Akhlut wrote:Huh, that whole "get thee behind me Satan!" reminds me of something totally not safe for work.

To at least be on-topic here, I'm personally still trying to see what conclusion I can come to. My thing is that I think I'd be a bit more accepting of an assholish God than a brutal, meaningless universe. I have huge problems dealing with nihilism (usually gets me into a huge depression that lasts for a while).

Why not just say that if God can give the universe meaning, then so can any other sentient being? Honestly, God would just be one of many sentient creatures in the universe. Why does the maker decide purpose and function? My viewpoint is just as valid. So is yours. God is not needed for there to be purpose.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-18 01:10am

Zero132132 wrote:Why not just say that if God can give the universe meaning, then so can any other sentient being? Honestly, God would just be one of many sentient creatures in the universe. Why does the maker decide purpose and function? My viewpoint is just as valid. So is yours. God is not needed for there to be purpose.

Because eternity would give permanence to meaning. Temporary meaning in the long run is meaningless, is it not?

Plus, even with a God, I struggle with nihilism with regards to meaning. It just makes it a bit easier to find meaning.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-18 02:55am

Akhlut wrote:
Zero132132 wrote:Why not just say that if God can give the universe meaning, then so can any other sentient being? Honestly, God would just be one of many sentient creatures in the universe. Why does the maker decide purpose and function? My viewpoint is just as valid. So is yours. God is not needed for there to be purpose.
Because eternity would give permanence to meaning. Temporary meaning in the long run is meaningless, is it not?

Plus, even with a God, I struggle with nihilism with regards to meaning. It just makes it a bit easier to find meaning.

Why should it matter whether this meaning is temporary or not? The only time during which this meaning would matter is during your own life time. For all realistic purposes, the universe as you percieve it won't last outside of this time, since you won't be there to percieve it. Basically, don't worry about an eternity of meaning: there is none. The only meaning is that which you give to things. Why should anything but that matter? even if there were a God, his meaning in your life would only exist by taking his meaning for the universe as yours.

Meaning is something YOU give to your life, and the things around you, not something you take from the universe.