YEC Bullshit

[Darth Servo]

I just LOVE their #1 piece of "evidence"

1 - Dendrochronology (tree clocks)

There are some species of trees which are able to live thousands of years. One of these is the Bristlecone pine tree. While there is no apparent reason why these could not live for tens of thousands of years, all of them date much younger. The oldest known living thing today is a Bristlecone pine (Pinus longalva) known affectionately as WPN-114. This particular tree, according to the Nevada Department of Economic Development, is 4,900 years old.55

I guess these morons have never heard of these things called "forest fires".

[mr friendly guy]

I just LOVE their #1 piece of "evidence"

1 - Dendrochronology (tree clocks)

There are some species of trees which are able to live thousands of years. One of these is the Bristlecone pine tree. While there is no apparent reason why these could not live for tens of thousands of years, all of them date much younger. The oldest known living thing today is a Bristlecone pine (Pinus longalva) known affectionately as WPN-114. This particular tree, according to the Nevada Department of Economic Development, is 4,900 years old.55

I guess these morons have never heard of these things called "forest fires".

They also don't realise we do not need a tree to actually lived > 6000 years the Bible says the Earth is (although I believe on Darth Wong's site he gives such an example).

We only need to be able to construct a dendrochronology calendar >6000 years, by comparing the rings of what remains of trees long dead with ones recently dead.

For example if I cut down a tree tomorrow and I see it has 4000 rings, I label each rign pattern, pattern 1-4000, with pattern 1 being the most recent. Then I find a tree which had fallen down prior. This tree also has 4000 rings including patterns 3900 - 4000. It also has some less recent (outer) rings which are a different pattern, which I will call patterns 4001 - patterns 7900. I can thus conclude that the 2nd tree must have at least been around 7900 years ago, greater than what the Bible says.

[wolveraptor]

Oh for fuck's sake, trees? Trees are automatically the oldest things on the planet? It's trees we should judge our planet's age by? Shut the fuck up.

[Molyneux]

Oh for fuck's sake, trees? Trees are automatically the oldest things on the planet? It's trees we should judge our planet's age by? Shut the fuck up.

Well, we *can* use trees to prove that the Earth is at least 39,000 years old or so.

[Magnetic]

Oh for fuck's sake, trees? Trees are automatically the oldest things on the planet? It's trees we should judge our planet's age by? Shut the fuck up.

Well, we *can* use trees to prove that the Earth is at least 39,000 years old or so.

Explain please.

[Magnetic]

I really ought to go through the dates thing sometime, the numbers don't even agree within the Bible.

An easy one to begin with is "What were Jesus' last words? What was written on the cross?"
In addition to the SAN, which often does a poor job of arguing towards the Christian mindset

http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/

I don't use that site much, though. The following site started a large amount of research for me:
http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/corrupt.html

And is told from a Christian perspective. It prompted me to do a lot of research about the history of the Bible.

Explain please.

[Molyneux]

Oh for fuck's sake, trees? Trees are automatically the oldest things on the planet? It's trees we should judge our planet's age by? Shut the fuck up.

Well, we *can* use trees to prove that the Earth is at least 39,000 years old or so.

Explain please.

Simple; the oldest living trees are less than ten thousand years old. However, there are dead trees which are older than that in the same area. Tree ring features are influenced by outside forces - a long cold winter will lead to very narrow rings, whereas a long growing season will have much thicker rings. Fires, floods and other conditions leave identifiable marks in the tree-ring record.

We take a sample from a living tree and a dead tree, and see if we can find an overlap; say that the first three hundred years of the living tree match up with the last three hundred years of the dead one. You can then assume that, based on the knowledge of the living tree's age, you can determine the exact age of the dead tree.

The tree-ring record has been pushed back to roughly 39,000 years of history in the case of certain long-lived trees. This implies that either God created those trees already dead and appearing to have lived, or that the trees lived when their growth rings imply. Occam's Razor (and common sense) would seem to imply that the growth records are accurate.

For the White Mountain bristlecone pines in California, for example, an unbroken record extending 8500 years back has been found. There are longer records with other tree populations elsewhere in the world; I'll furnish links if you want.

[dworkin]

Here you go Magnetic

Tree ring patterns are caused by changes in growth as dictated by the the length and severity of the seasons.

Since trees growing in a particular area will experience the same sequence of seaons it follows that their ring patterns will be the same.
('Area' can be quite big. Nothern Europe is an example)

So, if you find a peice of wood from say, a viking longboat and the patterns match scandinavian tree patterns corresponding to 1500 years ago then the ship has that age as an upper limit.

You can however do the same thing with trees found in things like peat bogs. If a tree with 2000 rings is dug up and it's last 100 rings also match the known 1500 years ago pattern then the tree can be inferrerd as having been alive 1500-3500 years ago.

As you find older tree remains that successively match up you can get a progressive chronology to date older and older wooden artifacts. Currently the chronology from tree rings goes back about 40K years and is an invaluable aid to carbon dating cross checking (since the functional limit for C-14 is c.50K years).

[Darth Wong]

Oh for fuck's sake, trees? Trees are automatically the oldest things on the planet? It's trees we should judge our planet's age by? Shut the fuck up.

After dealing with countless Trekkie idiots who confuse a lower limit for an upper limit, this kind of mentality is quite familiar to me. Trees can set a lower limit (which is already much too large for YEC beliefs anyway). But they can not set an upper limit.

[Ryushikaze]

Thanks for the help, everyone. I've sent back my salvo. No response as of yet, though that should not be surprising, given that it's usually a couple days between responses, and his last response was so long past that I had thought the thread dead.

And thanks for the tree record info. I'll remember that in case linking him to Mike's creation page wasn't enough (or as I suspect he might be doing, he is ignoring my sources).

[Magnetic]

Molyneux and dworkin, . . . . . . OH!. . . I can see that. Thanks for the explainations!

[Ariphaos]

After dealing with countless Trekkie idiots who confuse a lower limit for an upper limit, this kind of mentality is quite familiar to me. Trees can set a lower limit (which is already much too large for YEC beliefs anyway). But they can not set an upper limit.

Trees only go back ~12,000 years, save for relics like petrified forests and the frozen forests found in the Antartic, which 'aren't that old' (well, I haven't heard a YEC address the frozen antartic forests yet, actually). Many YECs therefore accept ages of ~12,000-20,000 years.

Their bullshit changes its sting on a regular basis.

[Ariphaos]

I really ought to go through the dates thing sometime, the numbers don't even agree within the Bible.

An easy one to begin with is "What were Jesus' last words? What was written on the cross?"

Explain please.

Umm, assuming you meant those things

On the first point: The Skeptic's Annotated Bible and other places are rife with various numbering errors, but another one is twofold:
1: God said the Hebrews would spend 400 years in slavery in Egypt. They could not have spent more than 300 total (which had to include some time in which they were pampered) - and somehow grew to a population of some one to two million
2: They were chased out of Egypt by chariots. Chariots were not introduced into Egypt until 1645 B.C.E. This puts a very solid upper limit as to how old the flood could have been, if we are to take the book literally. This solid upper limit is still after the earliest certain dates we have of the Egyptian pharoahs (2766 IIRC).

On the second point, the Gospels have different sayings for the relevant points. What was written on the cross? "The King of the Jews" "This is Jesus, the King of the Jews", and such. No more than one version can be correct.

Likewise, what were his last words? "It is finished." "My god! My god! Why have you forsaken me!?" and such - again, no more than one version can be correct.

You can do something similar requesting a concise, linear accounting of the events of Jesus' ressurection.

[Molyneux]

Molyneux and dworkin, . . . . . . OH!. . . I can see that. Thanks for the explainations!

No problem, anytime ^_^

[b00tleg]

is t here a link for this forum? I'd like to read up on the arguements

[General Zod]

is t here a link for this forum? I'd like to read up on the arguements

Google any YEC forums and chances are you'll come across similar if not identical arguments. These tend not to vary between fundamentalist nutjobs for the most part.

[Ryushikaze]

It's currently only limited to a single topic in a general, members viewing only forum at the moment (the place in question is a gaming message board), though there are some other rather interesting other characters hanging around, including one person who apparently believes himself to be able to sense spirits and that homosexuality and other sins are caused by demons infesting the body. Fortunately, these people are by no means representative of the majority of the board.

As Zod said, his arguments are basically typical YEC arguments, with the standard 'no contradictions, historically accurate' line, and the 'biblical examples of divine inspired scientific foreknowledge' argument thrown in with no additional validity.

If you really want to see, b00t, send me a PM.

Also, to contribute back for the help, here's a link to a list I came across of contradictions in the bible, organized by type. He's hoping to get all of them, but he's not sure if he's quite done yet. Still, it's a handy link for all the times the bible explicitly contradicts itself.
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104

[Magnetic]

I really ought to go through the dates thing sometime, the numbers don't even agree within the Bible.

An easy one to begin with is "What were Jesus' last words? What was written on the cross?"

Explain please.

Umm, assuming you meant those things

On the first point: The Skeptic's Annotated Bible and other places are rife with various numbering errors, but another one is twofold:
1: God said the Hebrews would spend 400 years in slavery in Egypt. They could not have spent more than 300 total (which had to include some time in which they were pampered) - and somehow grew to a population of some one to two million
2: They were chased out of Egypt by chariots. Chariots were not introduced into Egypt until 1645 B.C.E. This puts a very solid upper limit as to how old the flood could have been, if we are to take the book literally. This solid upper limit is still after the earliest certain dates we have of the Egyptian pharoahs (2766 IIRC).

On the second point, the Gospels have different sayings for the relevant points. What was written on the cross? "The King of the Jews" "This is Jesus, the King of the Jews", and such. No more than one version can be correct.

Likewise, what were his last words? "It is finished." "My god! My god! Why have you forsaken me!?" and such - again, no more than one version can be correct.

You can do something similar requesting a concise, linear accounting of the events of Jesus' ressurection.

Thanks for the kickstart, Xeriar. I guess I need to go to that website and poke around some (the skeptic's Annotated Bible).

As for the 'chariots in Egypt', I guess it would have to be concluded that the story of the Exodus was written well after the fact, and after chariots were common, . . . . .such to the unfortunate effect of this kind of anachronism.

BTW, does anyone know when that 'event' was supposed to have taken place (the Exodus of the Jews)?

[Darth Wong]

The Bible is full of claims which were obviously written late but dated early. The Book of Daniel has the most famous "prophecy" of the Old Testament, in which a book supposedly written in 6th century BC predicts a great king who conquers the known world and then dies without an heir, thus causing his empire to split into four pieces. This is, of course, exactly what happened with Alexander the Great. But the book only claims to have been written before Alexander's conquests; there is no evidence that it actually was, and considerable evidence that it wasn't (apparently, the use of language is consistent with 2nd century BC, not 6th century BC, and its predictions drop off precipitously in accuracy after the 2nd century BC).

[Ryushikaze]

A quick note for anyone wanting to argue this sort of thing in person- Make sure you bring a comprehensive list, including book, chapter, and verse, of your examples. Otherwise, they will often pretend that they do not exist, even if you can quote word for word the contradictory texts.

I say this because as I was returning from class about an hour ago, I took a moment to see what Gary the Pit Preacher (tm)- an amusingly infamous crazy envagelist of the general area- was spouting on about today. He was talking about the truth of the bible. I make an offhand remark about it contradicting itself that was more to myself than anyone else. He heard it, and asked for proof. I used the differing accounts of the crucifixtion, mentioning the differing final words specifically. He demanded I quote the passage number before listening to me, despite me nearly quoting the two wordings, and then came back with a "Jesus said that he was the truth". I felt like calling him on circular reasoning and evading the issue, but considering that no one actually takes him seriously (there's usually a crowd, but most of them are visibly amused by him) and that I knew he wouldn't listen to any form of argument unless I could provide quotes, I left after he asked one more question. He asked "Did you know god created you in his image?" (It's begging the question, but that's beside the point.). I responded "I know that's what it claims." And wandered off.

Of course, Gary isn't the sort to ever be swayed by anything- He once continued evangelizing after someone danced nearly naked in front of him- and if you listen to him long enough he will actually contradict himself, but insist he never did. You may have to deal with this as well.

[Ryushikaze]

Well, he's responded, and though I usually take a day or two to respond anyways, I think I'm going to wait a little longer this time, seeing as he literally seems to have forgotten to complete his response. He drops off midway through a sentence, and has left half of my post sitting in his post, but unanswered. However, aside from bickering about sources and whether or not it's Libel or Slander (and going by the source he just called for- wikipedia, but piffle- it would be neither), a few things jump out at me.

1- He declares the extrapolation that women and children will be in at least equal number as men- thus at minimum doubling the 600000 'just men' census- as an UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTION. He also treats this as a victory. Later, when I tell him he is assuming, he declares it deducing.

2- When I provide a direct contradiction- the widely disparate numbers of the census of able bodied men going to war for David- his only response is that it is "Another commonly used “contradiction”. " and quotes someone speculating that the error is caused by including or not including a certain people. Fails to note that the point of the quote was to show inconsistency of record more than anything.

3- In further reference to Exodus- The boy just does not understand that people in huge numbers leave an archeological record, even without pottery or the like.

4- He's not even trying to pay attention to what I say any more. I mention at one point "The hebrew faith has obvious roots in the Ur society religions predating it, including the fact that Abraham, by geography, originated from the area, and that the name of YHWH is remarkably similar to one of the Ur gods."

To which he responds

"Anyways, the common traits between the YHWH and “some Egyptian” god really needs to be built upon something…"

Note the difference?

5- He's not really remaining consistent between posts, while accusing me of it often (saying I create a contradiction between calling the bible 'not historically accurate' while arguing that it held 'beliefs common to the time'. Apparently he thinks I'm dealing in a black/white situation).

6- His last two arguments so far are an appeal to the authority of the bible to validate god, and an appeal to popularity.

I'm probably going to end this soon, since he shows no sign of getting the point- that his faith is nifty and all, but it has about as much backing as Gilgamesh, and a little less than Zoroastrianism.

[Ryushikaze]

Oh yeah. He also says he's not a Young Earther, which means he's even worse about choosing which parts to take literally and not. This would not be a bad thing if he wasn't arguing for the overall historical validity of the account and making bad excuses for what does not add up.

[Ariphaos]

1- He declares the extrapolation that women and children will be in at least equal number as men- thus at minimum doubling the 600000 'just men' census- as an UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTION. He also treats this as a victory. Later, when I tell him he is assuming, he declares it deducing.

Well, these numbers come out of culturewanking. Their penises don't provide enough pleasure after circumcision so they conveniently multiply by ten again and again...

Of course, there is the minor point that there is no record of such slaves in Egypt anyway, but there -is- an Egyptian record of Israel existing in the 12th century B.C.E "All of Israel has been laid waste."

It's obvious, historically, where the Egypt-hate came from.

Against the twiddling you've mentioned, I dunno. It's best to be extremely short, and specify the Ur god and tell him it is not Egyptian. If you want to go further, bring out the entire ancient Hebrew pantheon and show its relation to the Greek, Babylonian, etc.

[Ryushikaze]

I'd do that, but I'd need more on the subject of the ancient jewish pantheon. I do have information on the Ur god with an amazingly similar name, so I can press that easily. I'd need to scrounge for any more info than that, though.

[Molyneux]

1- He declares the extrapolation that women and children will be in at least equal number as men- thus at minimum doubling the 600000 'just men' census- as an UNWARRANTED ASSUMPTION. He also treats this as a victory. Later, when I tell him he is assuming, he declares it deducing.

Well, these numbers come out of culturewanking. Their penises don't provide enough pleasure after circumcision so they conveniently multiply by ten again and again...

Of course, there is the minor point that there is no record of such slaves in Egypt anyway, but there -is- an Egyptian record of Israel existing in the 12th century B.C.E "All of Israel has been laid waste."

It's obvious, historically, where the Egypt-hate came from.

Against the twiddling you've mentioned, I dunno. It's best to be extremely short, and specify the Ur god and tell him it is not Egyptian. If you want to go further, bring out the entire ancient Hebrew pantheon and show its relation to the Greek, Babylonian, etc.

If I may ask-
"Hebrew pantheon"? Quoi?