Looking for debunkings of WTC-7 theories

[Azazal]

Funnily enough, I was planning on starting a thread asking for good sites that debunked "teh Pentagon was hit by a missile!!1" conspiracy nonsense. I'll look at the ones already listed, here, of course, but more would be appreciated for this specifically.

Mods: I put this here, since it was mostly on target, and I didn't think another thread was warranted. If this appears as a hijack, please split with my apologies.

Here are a couple of good debunking 9/11 in general sites that link to many more

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

[Azazal]

Ghetto edit: Forgot this one, not a debunking per say, but just plain funny if for no other reason then, "Watching this video is like being bukakked with stupid."

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net ... 911_morons

[Ghost Rider]

What's sad about most of the conspiracy is they use basically gaffes to go "And explain this!!!!!", instead of actually going after the major sources and pointing out to the idiots what's wrong. They attack and nitpick the minor material and make a mountain out of a molehill.

I do enjoy though people thinking that a precision operation can occur without a hitch and then when you add planes ramming your targets, obviously this only adds to the ease of the operation.

[Darth Wong]

I also like the idiots who ask why the scrap steel was sold off, darkly muttering that the government wanted to cover up all the evidence. As if we're really going to keep tens of thousands of tons of scrap steel for an eternity of analysis when every idiot with eyes and a brain knows that the building was brought down by a plane smashing into it.

[Lord Zentei]

Ghetto edit: Forgot this one, not a debunking per say, but just plain funny if for no other reason then, "Watching this video is like being bukakked with stupid."

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net ... 911_morons

Maddox wins again. And thanks for the links.

You know, it's bad but not at all surprising that a lot of idiots on various web forums would spout this kind of bullshit. What I find particularly disgusting, however, is the way that a physics and astronomy prof at BYU is joining the circus. Now that is simply unacceptable, especially when you can see that he is spouting bullshit that is easily refuted by any first-year physics textbook. What the fuck kind of administration is in place at BYU? The man should be labeled as an incompetent crackpot and kicked out. Can't they do that?

The fuck? I know that there tend to be wierdoes that slip in through the cracks and manage to get jobs in unuversities but this is a new low.

[Adrian Laguna]

Funnily enough, I was planning on starting a thread asking for good sites that debunked "teh Pentagon was hit by a missile!!1" conspiracy nonsense. I'll look at the ones already listed, here, of course, but more would be appreciated for this specifically.

Azazal provided some links, but this webpage seems to fit your request better.

I keep this video in my favorites list. So far the best conspiracy theory video I've seen. Not talking about facts, it's all bullshit and lies, just that the presentation is pretty good.

[theski]

Funnily enough, I was planning on starting a thread asking for good sites that debunked "teh Pentagon was hit by a missile!!1" conspiracy nonsense. I'll look at the ones already listed, here, of course, but more would be appreciated for this specifically.

Azazal provided some links, but this webpage seems to fit your request better.

I keep this video in my favorites list. So far the best conspiracy theory video I've seen. Not talking about facts, it's all bullshit and lies, just that the presentation is pretty good.

The ATS site is a good one.. Trying to educate CT's is like Playing Whack a mole..

[DocHorror]

Actually, on the subject of the Pentagon strike, I remember first hearing on Sky News that it was a car bomb that did the damage.

[Il Saggiatore]

What I find particularly disgusting, however, is the way that a physics and astronomy prof at BYU is joining the circus.

It's the power of belief (or maybe he is just after the money).
Unfortunately physicists are just humans. At least proper engineers have an ethical code.

Did I mention that Prof. Brian Josephson, Nobel prize winner for he Josephson effect, set up the Mind-Matter Unification project?

Now that is simply unacceptable, especially when you can see that he is spouting bullshit that is easily refuted by any first-year physics textbook. What the fuck kind of administration is in place at BYU? The man should be labeled as an incompetent crackpot and kicked out. Can't they do that?

As far as I know the university and the engineering department issued statements rejecting Jones's "research":

I work only 20 minutes from BYU and I have confirmed the existence of both statements. The university disclaims the work of Jones, although it does not squelch him in any way. The college of engineering does not believe that Jones has done due diligence on his claims and thus does not believe his research is valid.

These statements came about because Jones initially reported in local media that symposia he conducted among interested faculty and students at BYU resulted in "favorable" feedback. This created the wrong impression that the university and its faculty endorsed his research.

(quoted from the BAUTforum)


Probably he has some sort of tenure, which grants him academic freedom.

[Darth Lucifer]

I really dont want to post the shit, where the CT's say its just janitor crews at night planting Demo Charges.

I'm embarrassed to admit I was one of the 9/11 conspiracy theory sheep until I decided to pull my head out of my ass.

Anyway, the "story" on this is that Marvin Bush (because Bush was behind it all you know ), brother to the president took over WTC security approximately 30 days before 9/11....thereby being in complete control of who was going in and out.

It gets better...from Jesus is Savior.com, toward the center of the page. More on John O'Neill here

The Murder of Former FBI Deputy Director John O' Neill

"Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi Arabian. The Saudi ruling family has been a major source of funding for terrorists. Both the Clinton and Bush administration impeded FBI investigations into Saudi Arabia. No President has ever had such a close relation with a foreign government as the Bushes have with Saudi Arabia. More than $1.4 billion in investments and contracts went from the House of Saud over the past two decades to companies associated with the Bush family.

As John O'Neill, the FBI's former top bin Laden investigator, said shortly before his death in the World Trade Center, "all the answers, everything needed to dismantle Osama bin Laden's organization can be found in Saudi Arabia." O'Neill also said that America's failure to stop bin Laden could be traced to one word - oil."

It was because of treasonous acts by officials in Washington that the Honorable John O' Neill resigned his position as FBI Deputy Director. He refused to be a part of what he saw coming to fruition; but, he didn't know exactly what it was. When George W. Bush signed Presidential Directive Order w199i blocking the FBI from investigating the suspect terrorists, Mr. O'Neill wanted to wash his hands of the matter. His "buddies" in Washington pulled some strings and got him a sweet job (so he thought) as Security Director of the Trade Towers in New York. Guess the date of Mr. O'Neill's first day on the new job? It was September 09, 2001 ... 911!!! As planned, John O'Neill was killed (murdered) in the 911 attacks. John O'Neill was murdered because he was an honest man, a threat to the thugs who had him assassinated. Yet, you'll never hear about this on FOX News! The news media purposely slaps Bush's hand on smaller issues, such as open borders, while the big crimes are never mentioned. Open borders are the least of our problems in America compared to the crimes being committed by Washington officials. I speak as a concerned U.S. citizen, as a tax-payer, and as a true Christian.

Only a True Christian can get 9/11 from September 9th. 2001

[Raven]

It's the power of belief (or maybe he is just after the money).
Unfortunately physicists are just humans. At least proper engineers have an ethical code.

Is he really making money off this? I don't see how publishing this paper and doing a few lectures to 9/11 CTers would generate any worthwhile amount of money.

It's not like the tobacco companies or oil companies who have deep pockets to buy off people and stand to make a profit from scientific dishonesty.
Crazy tinfoil theorists don't tend to be rich, and they aren't operating a business that would benefit from academic support for PR.

Am I missing the money here? Or is there no money after all, and these people are just attention whoring? Or perhaps incompetant?

[Il Saggiatore]

Is he really making money off this? I don't see how publishing this paper and doing a few lectures to 9/11 CTers would generate any worthwhile amount of money.

Maybe Jones isn't after the money, but is simply blinded by his preconceptions.

But other "scholars for truth" have been promoting other conspiracy theories, and apparently did not respond to criticism as real scholars searching for the truth.

James H. Fetzer (FM)

Distinguished McKnight University Professor of Philosophy at the University of Minnesota, Duluth, a former Marine Corps officer, author or editor of more than 20 books, and co-chair of S9/11T


David Ray Griffin (FM)

Emeritus Professor of Philosophy of Religion & Theology, Claremont School of Theology & Claremont Graduate University, Author or editor of some 30 books, including "The New Pearl Harbor" and "The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions"

(my bold)

It's not like the tobacco companies or oil companies who have deep pockets to buy off people and stand to make a profit from scientific dishonesty.
Crazy tinfoil theorists don't tend to be rich, and they aren't operating a business that would benefit from academic support for PR.

Nobody said they would become rich. By selling books, giving lectures and interviews, they can make a living, just like snake-oil salesmen ("Discover the secret of free energy: buy my book at $29.99."). There is a market.

Am I missing the money here? Or is there no money after all, and these people are just attention whoring? Or perhaps incompetant?

Or all of those, including making money by taking advantage of the credulity of people.

[Il Saggiatore]

Nobody said they would become rich. By selling books, giving lectures and interviews, they can make a living, just like snake-oil salesmen ("Discover the secret of free energy: buy my book at $29.99."). There is a market.

Like there is a market for Star Trek: Enterprise.

[Julhelm]

It's strange how Ramzi Yousef was caught in Manila back in like 1994 with all the blueprints for Operation Bojinka on his laptop (you know, blowing up lots of airliners and/or hijacking others to fly into buildings) yet after 9/11 apparently noone in charge had never heard of such a plan.

[R. U. Serious]

Try the "Conspiracy Theories" section of the BAUTforum (Bad Astronomy and Universe Today forum).
There have been extensive discussions about 911 and WTC collapse. In particlar read the posts by JayUtah.

Thanks I will do that.

The fact that Wikipedia reports this garbage as anything other than low farce is a perfect indictment of the entire Wikipedia concept.

Well, they do it on a page called "9/11 Conspiracy Theories", so it is clearly labeled; it's not being sold as anywhere near the truth or facts. But I can understand that it's debatable, whether such things - even if clearly labeled - should be there.

Which part of those arguments did you find particularly intriguing? Every single part of it stinks like bullshit to me.
[...]
And what about the harping on the vertical collapse? Why is it so hard to believe that a building would just happen to collapse in the direction of a little force known as gravity? Have we really sunk so low that this constitutes "evidence" for a "controlled demolition"? Of course, he tries to compare it to the difficulty of executing a completely controlled vertical demolition, totally neglecting the fact that there was significant damage outside the actual building footprint, so it was anything but a controlled collapse. In fact, after the preliminary FEMA reports that are so harped-upon by conspiracy theorists, further examination revealed that Tower 7 took heavy damage from debris that flew away from the collapse of the twin towers: the kind of debris that is not supposed to fly away and destroy other buildings in a controlled demolition.

About the WTC7 collapse, there are mainly two things conspiracists cling to - as far as I remember: the idea that the fires were not enough to cause the collapse (ignoring the fact that the building was actually damaged by debris)[...]

Actully yes, it's the collapse that threw me off. The NIST Slides show and explain the damage done by falling debris. What I still found surprising and couldn't explain (I only have high scool level physics) is that the collapse of WTC7 was so "symmetrical" (for lack of a better word). Meaning that all 4 corners of the building seem to start falling down at (almost) the same time and speed, so that the roof stays leveled the whole time.
With my shallow knowledge of physics I would have expected that the most damaged corner/side/center started collapsing down first, and the the other/outer walls onto it. Which would have also explained why there was not so much damage outside of the footprint. But when being shown the video of a collapse, I was out of arguments.
And then the BYU guy keeps saying (again, I am not sure if this is refuted), that NIST and FEMA explain and report what happens with WTC7 until the start of the collapse, but no report covers how the actual collapse (starting with the first failing pillar) progressed. Yes, the debate-tactic is the classical retreat to the next "yet unexplained" thing ad infinitum - unfortunately pointing out debate techniques doesn't win arguments, and personally, like I said, I find that is the part (i.e. the progression of the collapse of wtc7) that is actually the hardest to debunk/explain.

I'll try to look into the links and ideas the people in this thread mentioned.

Yes, most of the other bullshit theories around 9/11 I are easy to debunk, be it missiles on the pentagon, the collapse of the twin towers etc. etc.