Paganism

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Post by Boba Fett »

In my dictionary "pagan" and "heathen" means the same...
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Post by haas mark »

Spoonist wrote:->Boba Fett
You are talking about the word "heathen" not "pagan".
The turks called the catholics heathens etc.

->Verilon
Again no insult intended.
But if you don't know anything about the religion in question then you shouldn't claim to be a follower just yet. Wait until you have gained more knowledge.
Paganism is not defined except by dictionary as not believeing in the Hebrew god.
Except by dictionary? I don't get it. You just can't make up new meanings for words and expect people to accept them. I'm confused. :(
Please read:
http://www.mhaille.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk ... ticles.htm
How should I call it, then, if reluctant to call it Wicca? I will read through that, by the way.
Faeres as in what? Guardians? Keepers? Elaborate.
Guardians and keepers, sound much like guardian spirits and keepers of power. Both are New-Age, not celtic.
Fairies as in Tir-na-nog, as in Firbolgs, as in Fomorians, as in the Hunt led by Hern or Cernunnos, as in leprechauns, as in Pooka, as in grogoch, as in merrows, etc.
As in dieties or supernatural beings, or more specific natural creatures with magic powers.
Guardians as in guardians of people. Keepers as in protectors of the God and Goddess. I will have to research more, yes, but I dare say that you have no right to tell me that I shouldn't follow something that I feel is right. In fact, I'm not sure whether there should be considered a denominaton. There is a bit more that I know, but am not allowed to tell. And I'd rather not tell anyone not pagan/Wiccan. There are certain people I can tell, and others that I can't for the simple fact that it would sound entirely outrageous.
Each religion has its holy days (holidays) but I'm not sure what they are yet. I haven't yet learned the pagan calendar.
First there isn't a pagan calender since pagans are a collection of different pantheonic religions each with it's own calender.
The celtic traditional holy days (not holidays) usually reside around the lunar cycles, the equinoxes and the solstices of more importance are:
Samhain
Imbolc
Beltain
Lughnasadh(sp?)
That is basically where I was going with it, but there are others (the most known being Yule).
By your lack of knowledge in celtic tradition and culture mixed with your will to call yourself a celtic pagan, I take it that you are an american teenager? (Please let me be wrong!)
American, yes, but I don't want to call myself a pagan as in from a certain tradition.
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Post by haas mark »

HemlockGrey wrote:Back on the originial topic, I find anyone who claims to be able to bend the laws of time and space to be slightly addled.
I don't. :)
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Post by Johonebesus »

Why do Christians believe what they believe? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Or Buddhists?
I would say about 60% follow a particular religion because it is what they were taught. Maybe ~10% have a religious or nouminous experience of varying intensity which leads them to choose one or another religion. The choice may be determined by culture, by details in a "vision," or by rational consideration. The rest want to believe in something, and they choose the religion which they find most comforting or intriguing or aesthetically pleasing. The last group may overlap some with the first.
What attracts you to such very young religious traditions?
I'm not sure what you mean, here.
One of the reasons many people choose a particular religion is because it is old, whether because they think that because it has survived many centuries it is more likely to be true, or because they are attracted to the romantic notion of following an ancient tradition. As I stated, very little that is taught by neopagans is old, unless there were some secret societies that managed to hide for the past thousand years. It may incorporate some old features, but usually it combines disparate ideas and details along with completely new features to create something that would be unrecognizable to any Classical or Mediaeval pagan. At least, every neopagan belief structure I have ever seen does.

What I am asking is why you believe as you do. Have you had some experience which has convinced you that your boyfriend's beliefs are true? If so, what sort of experience? Have you been convinced by listening to other's testimony? What has convinced you of the veracity of doctrines that generally were not known more than 150 years ago, and maybe much less depending on what particular neopagan group you follow? Why do you believe in many types of "magickal people"? If you have not yet studied anything, why do believe it is true? Why do you spell "magickal" like that?

I am not trying to pick at your beliefs. Understanding why people hold the beliefs they do is a great interest of mine. Unfortunately, all of the pagans I have ever spoken to either tell me that they cannot reveal their secrets or they go off on BS about following ancient traditions. I am genuinely and compassionately curious as to what has convinced you to claim paganism as your religion.
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Post by haas mark »

Johonebesus wrote:
Why do Christians believe what they believe? Or Hindus? Or Muslims? Or Buddhists?
I would say about 60% follow a particular religion because it is what they were taught. Maybe ~10% have a religious or nouminous experience of varying intensity which leads them to choose one or another religion. The choice may be determined by culture, by details in a "vision," or by rational consideration. The rest want to believe in something, and they choose the religion which they find most comforting or intriguing or aesthetically pleasing. The last group may overlap some with the first.
What attracts you to such very young religious traditions?
I'm not sure what you mean, here.
One of the reasons many people choose a particular religion is because it is old, whether because they think that because it has survived many centuries it is more likely to be true, or because they are attracted to the romantic notion of following an ancient tradition. As I stated, very little that is taught by neopagans is old, unless there were some secret societies that managed to hide for the past thousand years. It may incorporate some old features, but usually it combines disparate ideas and details along with completely new features to create something that would be unrecognizable to any Classical or Mediaeval pagan. At least, every neopagan belief structure I have ever seen does.
Okay, that makes sense.
What I am asking is why you believe as you do. Have you had some experience which has convinced you that your boyfriend's beliefs are true? If so, what sort of experience? Have you been convinced by listening to other's testimony? What has convinced you of the veracity of doctrines that generally were not known more than 150 years ago, and maybe much less depending on what particular neopagan group you follow? Why do you believe in many types of "magickal people"? If you have not yet studied anything, why do believe it is true? Why do you spell "magickal" like that?
I am a believer in signs, as a lot of people are. Many things pointed towards me going to this. It partly started with my interest in the Tarot. From there, there were many things, especially the meeting of others claiming themselves pagan, and in addition, what others' testimonies have been. I can try to pull up what they have said, ask them, etc.

Magick is spelled that way ... I honestly don't know why, but it may be an old spelling of it. All I know is that it is associated with paganism and Wicca and the Craft.

I believe in many types of people because there are many types of people. *shrug* I really don't know how to explain it better than that.

As far as where the boyfriend comes in, its actually because of my choice that I met him, not the other way around. :)
I am not trying to pick at your beliefs. Understanding why people hold the beliefs they do is a great interest of mine. Unfortunately, all of the pagans I have ever spoken to either tell me that they cannot reveal their secrets or they go off on BS about following ancient traditions. I am genuinely and compassionately curious as to what has convinced you to claim paganism as your religion.
I understand. And I try to tewll as much as I can. There are jus certain things that I would like to keep private, because of difference in religion, and sometimes because I'm not to tell other pagans about it. It just depends. Ask me a question, and I'll answer it to the best of my ability.
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Post by Johonebesus »

Alright, specific questions:
I believe in many types of people because there are many types of people.
Your original statement was in response to my question as to whether you believe in magic and elves (fairies). What sort of "magickal people" are there? Do you believe in imortal magical beings which are not quite pure spirit, i.e. elves? When you say magic, do you mean the ability to manipulate the natural world by unseen force acting at a distance? Is magic directly the magnified will of the practitioner, or is it carried out by spirits at the practitioner's command? You made reference to a god and goddess. Are there only two deities? Is the consort also the the son, as in the old Magna Mater cults? Are they responsible for the creation, either one alone or together? Are the Mother and Consort sentient personalities or impersonal forces or manifestations? What is the fate of the soul? Do we reincarnate or pass into the Otherworld, or either depending on our virtue? You said you follow the Celtic tradition, but not Druidic. What exactly does that mean? Do you believe in a nation of elves called the Tuatha Dé Danann? Do they dwell in the Mag Mell? What are the guardians of people and protectors of the god and goddess? Why do gods need protecting? What is the purpose of religion? In other words, do you offer prayers and rites in order to obtain blessings and material benefits in this world, or to secure your aftelrlife, or to gain spiritual power to facilitate magic, or something else? Can magic be used to gain material benefits?

Alright, that's all I can think of at the moment. I hope that is all coherent. It's hard to tell when my brain is this tired but not sleepy. Going by your title I guess you know what that's like. You should not worry about people thinking youré strange or crazy for your answers to any of those questions; according to many around here, you have already admitted your insanity by beliving in a religion at all, especially without the excuse that you were "brainwashed" by your family. For my part, I have enough training to be able divorce my personal feelings on such matters from discussions of religions and cosmologies. We won't get into any arguments over this matter, unless I annoy you with too many questions.

If you feel uncomfortable answering any of these questions publicly, you can email me. Most "pagans"around here are idiot new age twits who have latched onto to the latest fad and have no idea whatsoever what they really believe. It wou;d be nice to get some insight into neopaganism from a real practitioner instead of an academic book. Now I am going to try to sleep a little. Sorry for my ramble.
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Post by SeebianWurm »

It's spelled "magick" because the idiot who started Wicca in '51 just spelled it that way
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Post by Spoonist »

Verilon wrote:I will have to research more, yes, but I dare say that you have no right to tell me that I shouldn't follow something that I feel is right.
True. Point taken. I have no such right.
But I do recomend that you do read more about it.
www.celt.net
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/general.html
http://www.pantheon.org/
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
Verilon wrote:That is basically where I was going with it, but there are others (the most known being Yule).
Yule is a norse celebration, not celtic. Yule was a celebration of midwinter in the viking era. After the viking invasions of the irish/english islands and northern france it spread to them as well and became a part of the anglo-saxon heritage. This is usually why people confuse it for a irish/celtic tradition.
http://heathen.info/yule.html
Verilon wrote:How should I call it, then, if reluctant to call it Wicca? I will read through that, by the way.
American, yes, but I don't want to call myself a pagan as in from a certain tradition.
From all the things we have got to know from you so far, then you are a neopagan or new-age.
That is, a follower of the mix of rituals that has been borrowed from pagan or heathen cultures. But with new flavors added.
For instance the concept of only one God and one Godess is modern, it would be heretic to the pagans of old (and the pagans that are still out there).
Also the concept of guardians of the people / guardian spirits / guardian angels is also a modern one.
(In the old days you would befriend or bond a spirit/creature to become your guard. Sort of like the equivalent of taming an animal.)
Verilon wrote:It partly started with my interest in the Tarot.
Which is another 'modern' (~17th century) concept.
Celtic druids would tell your fortunes with bones or by the intestines(sp?) from an animal.
A Norse neod (sort of like a shaman) would tell it from casting runes (made from bone or wood).
Verilon wrote:Magick is spelled that way ... I honestly don't know why, but it may be an old spelling of it. All I know is that it is associated with paganism and Wicca and the Craft.
See below.
SeebianWurm wrote:It's spelled "magick" because the idiot who started Wicca in '51 just spelled it that way
The use of the "k" comes from the spiritualist movement that started in the 1850's. (Which gave birth to both Wicca and Neopaganism). Spiritualism was a more widespread and popularised version of the 'orders' of 17th and 18th century, like the templars, freemasons, etc.
The problem was that stage magic was also extremely popular at the time. So the spiritualists started to put a K in the word magic to defferentiate it from 'common' magic.
So:
Magic was stagemagic as performed by illusionists and magicians.
Magick/magik was true supernatural/paranormal powers.

Now, SeebianWurm says that it comes from the person who started Wicca.
Well the truth is that Martin Gardener and Aliester Crowley are well-known and their literature is well spread. So the misconception comes from them being the first people who popularized the use of magik. (They where also the ones who popularised the use of 'the craft' as a synonym for magic.)
Both did claim that it is the "original" spelling of old, which is total bullshit.
The correct spelling in english has always been "magic" (and still is).
In other languages the spelling is and has been with a K. So when the germanic language has been influential on england they spelled all hard C's with a K.
"I use magic with my cat" -> would be spelled -> "I use magik with my kat"
So if crowley and gardener had been consequent(sp?) they should have spelled "the craft" as "the kraft"...
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Post by haas mark »

Johonebesus wrote:Alright, specific questions:
I believe in many types of people because there are many types of people.
Your original statement was in response to my question as to whether you believe in magic and elves (fairies). What sort of "magickal people" are there? Do you believe in imortal magical beings which are not quite pure spirit, i.e. elves?
Elsves, dwarves, dragons, many many things.
When you say magic, do you mean the ability to manipulate the natural world by unseen force acting at a distance?
In some ways, yes, but in other ways, no. Depends. I haven't actually performed much magic myself, other than strange forms of ESP that you probably wouldn't care to try to understand.
Is magic directly the magnified will of the practitioner, or is it carried out by spirits at the practitioner's command?
Practitioner. Things may be summoned, and then used, but for the most part (as far as I know) through the practitioner.
You made reference to a god and goddess. Are there only two deities?
Yep.
Is the consort also the the son, as in the old Magna Mater cults?
The who? Like I said, I am not entirely knowledgable as some people are.
Are they responsible for the creation, either one alone or together?
It's a possibility. There aren't any set definitions of how the world came about. Even my boyfriend (who knows a lot more than a lot of people) doesn't know for sure. And in what I *have* read, there's really no creation theory.
Are the Mother and Consort sentient personalities or impersonal forces or manifestations? What is the fate of the soul? Do we reincarnate or pass into the Otherworld, or either depending on our virtue?
Reincarnate.
You said you follow the Celtic tradition, but not Druidic. What exactly does that mean?
IIRC, I said I don't know exactly what I follow. But there is difference between Celtic and Druidic.
Do you believe in a nation of elves called the Tuatha Dé Danann? Do they dwell in the Mag Mell? [/quote[

I don't know.
What are the guardians of people and protectors of the god and goddess? Why do gods need protecting?
I can't explain that, and if I asked my bf, he'd ask why, and I am not sure he'd tell me if he knew himself.
What is the purpose of religion? In other words, do you offer prayers and rites in order to obtain blessings and material benefits in this world, or to secure your aftelrlife, or to gain spiritual power to facilitate magic, or something else?
Yes... but not entirely sure on what it does for me.
Can magic be used to gain material benefits?
Probably. Do I believe in that? No.
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Spoonist wrote:
Verilon wrote:I will have to research more, yes, but I dare say that you have no right to tell me that I shouldn't follow something that I feel is right.
True. Point taken. I have no such right.
But I do recomend that you do read more about it.
www.celt.net
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/general.html
http://www.pantheon.org/
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
And I will.
Verilon wrote:That is basically where I was going with it, but there are others (the most known being Yule).
Yule is a norse celebration, not celtic. Yule was a celebration of midwinter in the viking era. After the viking invasions of the irish/english islands and northern france it spread to them as well and became a part of the anglo-saxon heritage. This is usually why people confuse it for a irish/celtic tradition.
http://heathen.info/yule.html
Hmm... Okay, but maybe the influence from the Norse people helped form something in the Celtic religions?
Verilon wrote:How should I call it, then, if reluctant to call it Wicca? I will read through that, by the way.
American, yes, but I don't want to call myself a pagan as in from a certain tradition.
From all the things we have got to know from you so far, then you are a neopagan or new-age.
That is, a follower of the mix of rituals that has been borrowed from pagan or heathen cultures. But with new flavors added.
For instance the concept of only one God and one Godess is modern, it would be heretic to the pagans of old (and the pagans that are still out there).
THen maybe I should recant about only the one god and goddes..
Also the concept of guardians of the people / guardian spirits / guardian angels is also a modern one.
(In the old days you would befriend or bond a spirit/creature to become your guard. Sort of like the equivalent of taming an animal.)
No, you don't befriemd one, as in Native American religions, you just.. have one. Mine would be the dragon, actually a very powerful one. *shrug*
Verilon wrote:It partly started with my interest in the Tarot.
Which is another 'modern' (~17th century) concept.
Celtic druids would tell your fortunes with bones or by the intestines(sp?) from an animal.
A Norse neod (sort of like a shaman) would tell it from casting runes (made from bone or wood).
It's been shown that Tarot and rune-reading might date back to Ancient Egyptians (rather, a theory).
<snip>

Okay, then, that makes sense. But you have to know that I am being totally honest with you up until the point where I begin to feel uncomfortable. When I do, I won't answer something. If I don't mind the question, but don't know the answer, I'll tell you I don't know. Thanks for all the links, and I look forward to more questions, hopefully I'll be able to answer them.
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Post by Spoonist »

Verilon wrote:Hmm... Okay, but maybe the influence from the Norse people helped form something in the Celtic religions?
They probably have the same origins/influences.
BUT
When the viking era started all of the british/irish isles had converted to christianity.
So it was rather the other way around, when the scandinavians started settling in the domains that they had conquered they adopted christianity, and brought it back to scandinavia.

If you are interested in the Norse pantheon and the Norse saga/religion then read the Edda, which was written just as christianity was starting to overwhelm scandinavia.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/index.htm#iceland
Verilon wrote:It's been shown that Tarot and rune-reading might date back to Ancient Egyptians (rather, a theory).
Rather, a disproven theory. No records of this exist and they are not found in archeological sites.
The egyptians did however play a game of chance 'Senet' this board was probably also used for some sort of divination. That is as close as you will get...
Here you can play a game of senet:
http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/life/activity/main.html
What the Egyptians did like for divination was dreams.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/astdiv/index.html
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Post by SeebianWurm »

Conceded. I didn't look that one up.
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Post by Johonebesus »

Elsves, dwarves, dragons, many many things.
Do these things have physical bodies or are they purely spiritual entities? If physical, where do they dwell?

You said regarding guardian spirits, "Mine would be the dragon, actually a very powerful one." Is this a dragon spirit or a physical but magical being? You used the definite article; is your guardian like a patron saint, potentially the guardian of many persons, or is it your own unique guardian?
The who?
When you spoke of the god and goddess, I thought of the mother goddess and her consort. Many new age folks claim to worship the Great Mother. In ancient times, she was generally paired with a consort, or spouse. Often her consort was also her son, for example Gaia and Uranus, Tiamat and Apsu, etc. I was curious if this bit of lore made it into your neopaganism.

You missed the next question. I have heard some neopagans say that they worship elemental principles which are not personal gods. Are your god and goddess sentient beings?
IIRC, I said I don't know exactly what I follow.
My apologies, I thought you wrote somewhere that you followed or leaned towards the "Celtic tradition."
But there is difference between Celtic and Druidic.
Actually, ancient Celtic paganism was centered around the Druidic priesthood. To say that you are a pagan in the Celtic tradition but not Druidic is like saying that you are a Christian in the Italian tradition but not Catholic. Unless, by Celtic, one refers to a modern neopagansim movement started by people in Ireland or Scotland or some such.

If you want to know more about ancient paganism, I suggest reading books on the subject. For Nordic religion, H. R. Ellis Davidson has written a few good works about the gods; that might be a good place to start. The trouble with the Eddas, or the Metamorphoses or the Theogony or any such work, is that it is basically literary in nature. The ancient paganisms were active religions, not just collections of stories. The myths had their place, and some of them were central to worship, but the real activity of religion was the worship of deities through sacred ritual and sacrifice for their blessing or benevolence in their respective domains. Nothing that can be gleaned from the Mabinogion or Irish sources about the gods or elves will tell you that king had to copulate with a mare to ensure that the land remained fertile. In reading the stories about Zeus's adventures, you will not likely get a sense of the Lord of Heaven rolling across the sky as the thunderhead.
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Post by The Dark »

I actually read a good book comparing the Tarot to a Mesoamerican casting. I believe the book is entitled The Winged Prophet, but I'm not sure who it's by.
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Post by haas mark »

Spoonist: Comceded.
Johonebesus wrote:
Elsves, dwarves, dragons, many many things.
Do these things have physical bodies or are they purely spiritual entities? If physical, where do they dwell?
Physical, although not always in this plane of existence, if you can understand where I'm going. Not sure how to exlain it other than that, but that's what I do know.
You said regarding guardian spirits, "Mine would be the dragon, actually a very powerful one." Is this a dragon spirit or a physical but magical being?
Both.
You used the definite article; is your guardian like a patron saint, potentially the guardian of many persons, or is it your own unique guardian?
It coule be either. The dragon is the guardian of many people, but I have my own dragon guarding me, whereas someone else would have a different dragon.
The who?
When you spoke of the god and goddess, I thought of the mother goddess and her consort. Many new age folks claim to worship the Great Mother. In ancient times, she was generally paired with a consort, or spouse. Often her consort was also her son, for example Gaia and Uranus, Tiamat and Apsu, etc. I was curious if this bit of lore made it into your neopaganism.
Not her son. Just the god. *shrugs* I'm answerign to the best of my ability here.
You missed the next question. I have heard some neopagans say that they worship elemental principles which are not personal gods. Are your god and goddess sentient beings?
Elements are a very important part (fire, earth, water, air), each with its own properties. However, they themselves are not worshipped. They generally define personality in people, and other things are affected by these elements, including weather, people reacting to each other, and more.
But there is difference between Celtic and Druidic.
Actually, ancient Celtic paganism was centered around the Druidic priesthood. To say that you are a pagan in the Celtic tradition but not Druidic is like saying that you are a Christian in the Italian tradition but not Catholic. Unless, by Celtic, one refers to a modern neopagansim movement started by people in Ireland or Scotland or some such.
Only going along with what I've heard about it. But I follow you, and I am trying to understand what you're saying. Like I said, I know I have a lot more research to do, but I'd be hard-pressed to leave my religion any time soon, now that I'm happy with it.
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Johonebesus
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Post by Johonebesus »

Physical, although not always in this plane of existence, if you can understand where I'm going. Not sure how to exlain it other than that, but that's what I do know.
That makes perfect sense. Some people think that reality might be kind of like the EM spectrum. There is a narrow band that we can directly perceive and interact with, and perhaps we can indirectly perceive a little bit beyond that band, but there are many levels to reality which are beyond our normal perception. Or, in technobabble, elves would exist in different dimensions than us.

You still didn't answer a basic question, but maybe you just missed it, and I'm sure my rambling didn't help.

Are the god and goddess sentient personalities?

I'm not trying to harp on you, it's just that some neopagans I have spoken to say that their deities are not sentient beings. I would like to know if your two gods are persons or impersonal forces. Or is this a secret?
If they do possess personality, what are their names, or are the names taboo?

And now for the interesting questions.

You say you are happy with your religion, yet you seem to know very little about it. What exactly has convinced you of its veracity? you mentioned signs, but only specifically mentioned tarot readings. What other signs did you note? Fortuitous meetings of several pagans, dreams, visions? Did you have an experience where you met and spoke to your guardian? Have you directly observed events which could only be explained in the context of your religion, i.e. magic? Have you had a religious epiphany where you "perceived" the truth of the god and goddess or you religion in general?
Like I said, I know I have a lot more research to do, but I'd be hard-pressed to leave my religion any time soon, now that I'm happy with it.
Please note, I am not trying to dissuade you from your religion, or to pick it apart, or to prove it incorrect or invalid. I might ask some questions that seem like they're picking holes in your faith, but I am simply trying to understand what you believe and, more importantly, why. One thing that fascinates me is how people in modern Western culture reconcile mechanical rationalism with inherently irrational religious beliefs. Some simply deny that their beliefs are irrational. Some do not understand the principles of logic, and just accept what scientists say as their ancestors accepted the teachings of the Church. Others claim that there is Truth that transcends logic; that there is more to the universe than can be understood with reason alone, and that closing of your mind to anything spiritual and refusing to accept that there is anything beyond what our current science can explain is as "irrational" as believing that the earth is six thousand years old.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Luckily for me, I don't have to worry about resolving that conflict :)
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Post by Spoonist »

Hmm, I wasn't looking for you to concede. I was just trying to educate you on matters you said that you would like to know more about.
:oops:
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Post by SeebianWurm »

Not that much of a "concession" in the normal use, but I was wrong, so I gave the point up.
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Post by haas mark »

Johonebesus wrote:
Physical, although not always in this plane of existence, if you can understand where I'm going. Not sure how to exlain it other than that, but that's what I do know.
That makes perfect sense. Some people think that reality might be kind of like the EM spectrum. There is a narrow band that we can directly perceive and interact with, and perhaps we can indirectly perceive a little bit beyond that band, but there are many levels to reality which are beyond our normal perception. Or, in technobabble, elves would exist in different dimensions than us.

You still didn't answer a basic question, but maybe you just missed it, and I'm sure my rambling didn't help.

Are the god and goddess sentient personalities?

I'm not trying to harp on you, it's just that some neopagans I have spoken to say that their deities are not sentient beings. I would like to know if your two gods are persons or impersonal forces. Or is this a secret?
I believe i said I don't know, but I might not have. Either way, I really don't know.
If they do possess personality, what are their names, or are the names taboo?
Ummm... I still don't know.
And now for the interesting questions.

You say you are happy with your religion, yet you seem to know very little about it. What exactly has convinced you of its veracity? you mentioned signs, but only specifically mentioned tarot readings. What other signs did you note?
Many things that mentioned goddess, or the fact that inadvertently most of my friends (or about half) are pagan. I can't think of everything *right now*
Fortuitous meetings of several pagans, dreams, visions?
As far as visions... well, that comes on a basis entirely its own. I do see things, and not all of them good *glares at Bean*
Did you have an experience where you met and spoke to your guardian?
I have seen him/her twice, but have yet to speak to it.
Have you directly observed events which could only be explained in the context of your religion, i.e. magic?
Somewhat, but not all of it can be considered magic.
Have you had a religious epiphany where you "perceived" the truth of the god and goddess or you religion in general?
Not as of yet.
Like I said, I know I have a lot more research to do, but I'd be hard-pressed to leave my religion any time soon, now that I'm happy with it.
Please note, I am not trying to dissuade you from your religion, or to pick it apart, or to prove it incorrect or invalid. I might ask some questions that seem like they're picking holes in your faith, but I am simply trying to understand what you believe and, more importantly, why. One thing that fascinates me is how people in modern Western culture reconcile mechanical rationalism with inherently irrational religious beliefs. Some simply deny that their beliefs are irrational.
I do not deny the possibility that I may be wrong. But I believe what I believe, and I understand that you're not trying to pick it apart; just asking questions.
Some do not understand the principles of logic, and just accept what scientists say as their ancestors accepted the teachings of the Church. Others claim that there is Truth that transcends logic; that there is more to the universe than can be understood with reason alone, and that closing of your mind to anything spiritual and refusing to accept that there is anything beyond what our current science can explain is as "irrational" as believing that the earth is six thousand years old.
First off, there is no Church in pagan religion. Second, I again understand where you are going with this, and only wish to ask if you all can broaden your horizons and accept the possibilities as I have.
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005


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Johonebesus
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Post by Johonebesus »

As far as visions... well, that comes on a basis entirely its own. I do see things, and not all of them good *glares at Bean*.
Dare I ask you to elaborate? Seriously, what sort of “things” and under what sort of conditions? Do you practice meditation? Do you or others of your faith use hallucinogens to facilitate visions? You said that you have seen your guardian and indicated that you have had experiences that can only be explained by your religion. Would you be willing to describe these experiences in detail? Could you describe the experience where you saw your guardian? What would be most helpful is if you went into some detail about your experiences.
First off, there is no Church in pagan religion.
…and I never said there was. However, this does lead to another question. What sort of priesthood do you have. I realize there is no real organization, but there must be religious experts who teach and lead you in your rites. Even the most radical protestants have always had preachers, even if everyone was theoretically able to preach. What sort of training do they possess? What sort of titles or recognition of rank do they receive? How great is the divide between cleric and layman (expert and non-expert)?
Second, I again understand where you are going with this,
Are you sure? Sometimes I even confuse myself. The point that I was trying to make was that I really want to know why you believe as you do. But then I got to rambling, as usual. I suppose I should have said, “please elaborate with specific details and examples.”
and only wish to ask if you all can broaden your horizons and accept the possibilities as I have.
Please be aware that I am not likely to be converted to your religious beliefs. I am motivated by a desire to understand, but my favorite saying is “the mark of an educated man is the ability to entertain a notion without believing it.” I will not ridicule your beliefs or tell you that you are wrong, but I am not trying to discover the Truth through your religion. I simply wish to understand; whether or not any of it is objectively true is to me irrelevant. However, if it makes you more comfortable (after all, I am asking for a lot of personal information), I will tell you that I am theist. I do believe in the divine. The last sentence of my previous post represents my own attitude.
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Post by Baron Mordo »

If I may offer up some advice on explaining belief: It's like trying to explain colour to a blind man.
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Post by haas mark »

Johonebesus wrote:
As far as visions... well, that comes on a basis entirely its own. I do see things, and not all of them good *glares at Bean*.
Dare I ask you to elaborate? Seriously, what sort of “things” and under what sort of conditions?
To be honest, sometimes good things, sometimes bad things. It comes and goes. Saw a friend having a baby. Saw Bean getting hurt. Many many things.
Do you practice meditation?
It's helpful
Do you or others of your faith use hallucinogens to facilitate visions?
I couldn't say much for many other, but unless you conider Sandalwood incense a hallucinogen, no.
You said that you have seen your guardian
Yes...
and indicated that you have had experiences that can only be explained by your religion.
I did?
Would you be willing to describe these experiences in detail?
Not sure what you mean.
Could you describe the experience where you saw your guardian?
IMing myboyfriend, and we were talking about dragons and guardians. We had gotten off the subject, somewhat, and I just saw it. Didn't interact, just saw.

Laying in bed. Words come out of my mouth have no clue what, but summoned it. [shrugs]
What would be most helpful is if you went into some detail about your experiences.
Such as...?
First off, there is no Church in pagan religion.
…and I never said there was. However, this does lead to another question. What sort of priesthood do you have. I realize there is no real organization, but there must be religious experts who teach and lead you in your rites. Even the most radical protestants have always had preachers, even if everyone was theoretically able to preach. What sort of training do they possess? What sort of titles or recognition of rank do they receive? How great is the divide between cleric and layman (expert and non-expert)?
I know there are different ranks of people in what are soemtimes called covens (groups of witches/pagans). But further than that, I'm not sure, because many people leave covens to study by themselves, sometimes.
Second, I again understand where you are going with this,
Are you sure? Sometimes I even confuse myself. The point that I was trying to make was that I really want to know why you believe as you do.
THat and your curiosity. I know. :)
But then I got to rambling, as usual. I suppose I should have said, “please elaborate with specific details and examples.”
It's all good.
and only wish to ask if you all can broaden your horizons and accept the possibilities as I have.
Please be aware that I am not likely to be converted to your religious beliefs.
Not trying to convert, just trying to say, there is the possibility, ne?
I am motivated by a desire to understand, but my favorite saying is “the mark of an educated man is the ability to entertain a notion without believing it.” I will not ridicule your beliefs or tell you that you are wrong, but I am not trying to discover the Truth through your religion.
I know. And I am not one to tryto force my beliefs upon others, as much as it seems so sometimes.
I simply wish to understand; whether or not any of it is objectively true is to me irrelevant. However, if it makes you more comfortable (after all, I am asking for a lot of personal information), I will tell you that I am theist. I do believe in the divine. The last sentence of my previous post represents my own attitude.
Okay.





Baron Mordo wrote:If I may offer up some advice on explaining belief: It's like trying to explain colour to a blind man.
Well, Christians sure do have a helluva time explaining their religion sometimes...
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Post by Baron Mordo »

I'm not talking about religion. Religions are groups of people, usually focused on a published doctrine. I'm talking about one's own beliefs; what they believe in their hearts to be true.
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Post by haas mark »

Baron Mordo wrote:I'm not talking about religion. Religions are groups of people, usually focused on a published doctrine. I'm talking about one's own beliefs; what they believe in their hearts to be true.
Religion can't be a belief? In other word, what you're saying is that basically trying to explain a belief is the same as trying to explain an emotion that you feel so strongly that you can't describe it.. correct?
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005


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