Will Airships ever be a mainstream reality?

[Darth Wong]

That takes a lot of time and preparation, though -- well, more time than preparation. Railways aren't made out of flimsy material, and I would think that hacking that up is going to require some serious dedication to doing so.

Dude, you're talking about guys blasting airships with rocket-propelled grenades, for fuck's sake. Anybody with access to that kind of weaponry could easily take out some rail lines, or even just lay a bomb and detonate it when the train goes by.

[Zixinus]

How about safety from natural effects? I'm thinking stuff like storm, rain, strong winds, etc.

[McC]

Dude, you're talking about guys blasting airships with rocket-propelled grenades, for fuck's sake. Anybody with access to that kind of weaponry could easily take out some rail lines, or even just lay a bomb and detonate it when the train goes by.

Ah, sorry, I see the confusion point. I conceded the RPG thing wouldn't really be a factor on this continent, and was more referring to the dangers to an airship as compared to those to a train/rail system on this continent, using the precedent of small arms fire directed towards the Goodyear blimp as an example. That's what I'm using to compare the levels of effort.

[Coyote]

Obviously, IMO, Zepps are under-appreciatead and under-used.

Besides, it would be theoretically possible to make a zeppelin in the shape of a giant penis. Then you could ask people if they want to ride a giant penis across the ocean. The advantages just keep piling up.

Actually...

... as high-flying cruise liners they'd be perfect for mile-high-club orgies. I could see a chartered Zepp flying, say, a wedding party with guests, onboard catering, a live band, and a hundred guests to a honeymoon vacation resort... drop off the happy couple and fly the rest back.

Airborne casinos for weekend gambling outside of territoral waters...

Hugh Hefner's SkyPenis... hmmm... what if it collides with a Virgin airliner? Is that where Cessnas come from?

[Coyote]

McC, think of this-- people mess with rails all the time to little effect. The Viper Militia in Arizona tried active sabotage and they got caught. People fire missiles and guns at aircraft and even shine laser pointers to no effect.

And even if a missile or gunshot does connect with a Zepp? As I mentioned, a Zepp crash will be a slow decline to earth-- not only with time to try to guide it down but there may even be sufficient time to evacuate people from the area of direct impact beforehand (best case scenario). Try to get that safety margin with a plane-- those tend to drop like rocks.

True, a hydrogen Zepp will burn up quick, and crash, but so too does a plane-- and without the speed of a crash-landing airplane, so the "ballistic" damage is not going to be such a factor.

Depending on what is being shipped, you can have industrial Zepps with cargo racks slung underneath and a sort of dockyard crane style system that reaches down, hooks right on to existing trailer containers, hoists them up and off you go. Not as many as the sheer bulk of a train, as the Duchess admitted (maybe a half-dozen max, as opposed to hundreds on a train) but the opportunity to take cargo from the back of a truck, fly direct across the ocean and lower it onto the back of another truck has advantages.

A way to increase lift is to bring back an experiment that helicopter engineer Frank Piasecki tried. He had an idea for a Zeppelin that had a cargo rack underneath, and at each corner of the rack, there were pylons that had helicopter hulls fastened to them. The four helicopters of the Heli-Stat worked together with the gasbag to lift far more than the gasbag itself could. An experimental model crashed, due to problems coordinating the helicopter torque, but a similar idea, using contra-rotating ducted-fans connected to pivots directly into the frame of the Zepp might be feasable, coordinated with the more modern computers available.

Piasecki's plan was to sell it to the Forest Service for logging in no-road wilderness (a good plan, IMO). Zepps can also be fitted with gropund-penetrating radar for geological surveys looking for resource deposits.

There's a lot that can be done with Zepps.

[Bounty]

As I mentioned, a Zepp crash will be a slow decline to earth-- not only with time to try to guide it down but there may even be sufficient time to evacuate people from the area of direct impact beforehand (best case scenario)

One of the most peculiar things about the Hindenburg crash is that the people who walked away from the crash unscathed - or just with minor injuries - were the ones who simply sat out the descent and walked away from the wreck after it had settled. Most fatalities were from panicked passengers trying to jump out the the ship while it was crashing.

[Coyote]

Military Applications--

Naturally it would be likely that a heavy-lift Zepp would be used to ferry in equipment to a battlezone well behind the lines, to ensure maximum safety. A couple rednecks with beers and a rifle won't bring down a Zepp, and a terrorist with a single rocket probably won't have much luck either. But a war zone with thousands of rounds and rockets being directed at a Zepp is an altogether different story-- although in an emergency situation, it could be done.

A Zepp like the HeliStat could bring up a whole platoon of M1 Tanks at once, compared to one-at-a-time delivery of most planes-- and the Zepp doesn't need a runway, and again, if it takes a few hits, it won't drop like a rock. A Zepp could also carry far more men than a usual transport, again negating most terrain limitations, or a mobile hospital or similar needs. A Zepp can drop supplies to a besieged garrison from a height that is out of missile range and cargo parachute pallets can be guided in by thruster navigating from GPS to land right where it needs to go.

Zeppelins can provide "eye-in-the-sky" support for far longer time periods than an AWACS or JSTARS aircraft, even hovering over an area for days on end while the crew lives aboard. Say, one-week shifts, and with minimum fuel consumption compared to a converted 707 on constant orbit. And your crews can even fly in direct from the States, do the job, then fly back without ever getting near the ground (Air Force crews will, however, insist on and get hazard pay )

More daring jobs could be surveillance over insurgent cities, supporting ground troops with searchlights or flares at night, loudspeakers, overhead surveillance, targeting lasers for laser-guided bombs, even fire support if weapons are mounted on the Zepp itself. Naturally if the enemy has a lot of rocket support this becomes a bad idea and the Zepp has to clear out. But a Zepp still has better loiter time than a plane, and not as delicate a target as a helicopter.

Humanitarian aid mission for the UN can also fly massive amounts of food to fucked up areas without worry of flooded roads, washed out brisges, airstrips, or crossing land dominated by tribal militias.

[McC]

A couple rednecks with beers and a rifle won't bring down a Zepp, and a terrorist with a single rocket probably won't have much luck either.

Er, why? One rocket blowing up a hydrogen bladder is easily going to be fairly bad news, isn't it? You seem to be saying that an airship will just shrug off these attacks, but I tend to think that anything that punctures the (ostensibly) mylar covering of the bladder is going to pose a serious problem with regard to igniting the hydrogen contained therein -- particularly an incendiary device intended to do just that.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Those had better be recoilless rifles. Dirigibles are not exactly great for absorbing firing stresses. If only we had Alpha Shade style flying battleships. I wonder what one of those would do over Baghdad...

[Zixinus]

How high can a dirigible fly? How high do they OFTEN fly?

[Jadeite]

My familiarity with hydrogen's flamability is excessively limited, but I would think the concern of firearms would come not from the puncture power of the bullet, but from the temperature. Maybe I'm way off, though.

Unless you're using incendiary ammunition vs a hydrogen filled airship, no chance in hell.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

My familiarity with hydrogen's flamability is excessively limited, but I would think the concern of firearms would come not from the puncture power of the bullet, but from the temperature. Maybe I'm way off, though.

Unless you're using incendiary ammunition vs a hydrogen filled airship, no chance in hell.

Let's not forget that you can make the hydrogen ballonettes self-sealing just like self-sealing fuel tanks. And how is the hydrogen going to burn if there's no oxygen reaching it?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How high can a dirigible fly? How high do they OFTEN fly?

The current limit for unmanned gas balloons is 53km, and for manned gas balloons, 35km. There is no reason that a dirigible could not reach 53km or so if the crew compartments were pressurized and the engines were not dependent on outside oxygen to function, though the ascent would be extremely slow.

[Spin Echo]

I've heard going to the moon to get more helium; apparently the earth's magnetic field diverts helium given off by the sun and it ends up collecting in the dirt on the moon's surface. However, going to the sun would be so vastly cost inefficient, it's just not practical

You do realize that he was joking right? You can't get to the sun for helium, it has no sane possibility of survival.

You often can't be sure of that around these parts.

As for the moon, we aim to go there for Helium-3, an ideal fusion fuel, not because its helium. .

Hence why I said helium 3 was the reason for the "go to the moon to get helium idea".

The reason for a duraluminium outer hull is that it would prevent deformation of the aerodynamic shape due to high speeds, allowing the airship to go faster.

Exactly how fast are you expecting these airships to go? You get fabric planes that can move along at 280 km per hour.

I don't know if you've ever seen a fabric plane up close, but I was quite surprised the first time I saw one. I didn't even realise it was fabric until it was pointed out to me, and I was pre-flighting the thing. The covering wasn't what I was used to thinking of as fabric; it was actually quite stiff.

[Coyote]

Those had better be recoilless rifles. Dirigibles are not exactly great for absorbing firing stresses. If only we had Alpha Shade style flying battleships. I wonder what one of those would do over Baghdad...

I'd mount recoilless rifles, or miniguns/chainguns. Or drop-then-ignite rockets.

Actually, imagine instead the Army's new "pain beam" array slapped onto the slab side of a Zepp and directed properly...

Actually, for defense of a Zepp, chaff and flares are viable, and there'd actually be enough power on a Zepp to run a TROPHY system to defeat incoming RPGs, so really even that isn't such a problem...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Exactly how fast are you expecting these airships to go? You get fabric planes that can move along at 280 km per hour.

I don't know if you've ever seen a fabric plane up close, but I was quite surprised the first time I saw one. I didn't even realise it was fabric until it was pointed out to me, and I was pre-flighting the thing. The covering wasn't what I was used to thinking of as fabric; it was actually quite stiff.

I've flown fairly extensively before, yes, and I've handled fabric aircraft.

Thinking about it now, envelope deformation is only really a problem with blimps and semi-rigids, though, but a lot of modern designs which are supposedly to be new dirigibles are actually semi-rigids. Which can be fairly tough in and of themselves, witness the flight of the Norge the North Pole.

Duraluminium plating is more useful as a measure against attack in military variations where it could at least provide some defence against small-arms fire.

[AMX]

I've flown fairly extensively before, yes, and I've handled fabric aircraft.

Thinking about it now, envelope deformation is only really a problem with blimps and semi-rigids, though, but a lot of modern designs which are supposedly to be new dirigibles are actually semi-rigids. Which can be fairly tough in and of themselves, witness the flight of the Norge the North Pole.

IIRC, modern semirigids are typically pressurized to maintain shape, too.

Duraluminium plating is more useful as a measure against attack in military variations where it could at least provide some defence against small-arms fire.

Not much, if at all.
We're talking about single-figure mm, if that (the only all-metal airship I'm familiar with had 0.2mm thick skin).

[Coyote]

A couple rednecks with beers and a rifle won't bring down a Zepp, and a terrorist with a single rocket probably won't have much luck either.

Er, why? One rocket blowing up a hydrogen bladder is easily going to be fairly bad news, isn't it? You seem to be saying that an airship will just shrug off these attacks, but I tend to think that anything that punctures the (ostensibly) mylar covering of the bladder is going to pose a serious problem with regard to igniting the hydrogen contained therein -- particularly an incendiary device intended to do just that.

Assuming a hydrogen gasbag, it is possible that damage can be done. But there is the possibility that the rocket could just punch clean through without encountering enough resistance to detonate (I've heard tales that that sometimes happened with fiberglass-hulled river patrol boats in Vietnam).

Even if it does explode, again, we have a relatively slow, gentle crash vs. a high-speed plummet of a plane; it is possible that a Zepp could have its internal space compartmentalized somewhat to contain damage (although that would add weight).

I'm not saying that "it is impossible for a rocket to damage a Zeppelin" I'm saying that it is possible, but even in a worst-case scenario, comparing the damage of a burning Zeppelin falling from the sky vs. a burning airplane falling from the sky... net advantage, Zepp. And there's even a chance that the Zepp could, indeed, absorb the damage, and fly off with half its frame ruptured.. not so with a plane.

[Spin Echo]

I've flown fairly extensively before, yes, and I've handled fabric aircraft.

Ah. Does that mean we have another pilot around here?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I've flown fairly extensively before, yes, and I've handled fabric aircraft.

Ah. Does that mean we have another pilot around here? :D

Once upon a time. The hobby got much to expensive for me over the past few years, and I ended up busy with plenty of other things instead. I think if Dirigibles become available on a broad scale I'd get licensed for their operation simply for the novelty factor.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

..Why is every single non-military pilot here a girl?

Is it some kind of correlation between extreme type-A personalities which pilots tend to have and being a girl who's willing to stand this massive collection of uber-geeks?

[Spin Echo]

..Why is every single non-military pilot here a girl?

Not true. I'm pretty sure Skyman is a nonmilitary pilot and Spyder is on his way.

Is it some kind of correlation between extreme type-A personalities which pilots tend to have and being a girl who's willing to stand this massive collection of uber-geeks?

I find one of the reasons I like hanging around the aeroclub (and here as well) is that I actually meet other intelligent women. There aren't that many women in my field and I find the percentage of well, vapid women, tends to go up sharply out in the normal world.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Not true. I'm pretty sure Skyman is a nonmilitary pilot and Spyder is on his way.

Eh, okay. I don't pay much attention to the subject these days.

I find one of the reasons I like hanging around the aeroclub (and here as well) is that I actually meet other intelligent women. There aren't that many women in my field and I find the percentage of well, vapid women, tends to go up sharply out in the normal world.

S'true. Sadly so, but very true. Vapidity remains a culturally encouraged trait in women in western society--we're raised to be stupid, more or less, and it usually works. But that's why I'm a violently militant feminist. *grins*

[Laughing Mechanicus]

Strangely I was planning to make a thread in a very similar vein, then came to SD and found someone beat me to it!
About survivability: the UK's Defence Evaluation and Research Agency did some tests on the survivability of a modern airship (not sure what type, looks either semi- or non-rigid).



"The picture (above) shows the airship two hours after several hundred high-velocity bullets were fired through the hull. Even after this intensive assault, the vehicle would have been able to return to base."

There's a company called World SkyCat pretty close to where I live who are designing and manufacturing modern hybrid airships. I am desperately trying to get a job there.

[Broomstick]

Fabric is lighter than metal. Despite the impressive carrying capacity of a large airship, you still want to save weight wherever possible

Mylar or similar composites would do. They are non-flammable, tough wearing and light. The skeleton would be the tricky part, though I suspect carbon-fibre or aluminium would be used.

Mylar is more like a fabric than a metal in regards to how it handles. Heck, it might even be used in blimps now, since it is far less "leaky" than most materials (just compare the longevity of a mylar balloon with helium versus the traditional rubber balloon).

In the Golden Age of zepps aluminum alloy was used for the skeleton, there's no reason we couldn't use it now. Carbon composite would likewise be quite useful although that material has limitations, too (a plane I've flown with a carbon composite main spar has a sensor built into it to detect conditions that would weaken the spar dangerously - including temperatures that could and have occured on hot summer days parked on pavement.)

For power source, I'd still rather go nuclear. The weight of diesel is still something that could be used for payload instead, so the one off loss of lifting capacity from a single fission reactor would be off-set by it being a mass not requiring replenishment or buoyancy alterations as it depletes.

We now have diesel engines light and efficient enough for fixed wing aircraft in the size and weight range I fly (thank you, European innovators). You can dump diesel fuel to increase lift in a way that you can't (ethically) dump reactor fuel. If I weren't so tired I could probably do more comparisons, but I'm not convinced nuclear is so wildly superior to diesel, particularly as the general public is MUCH more comfortable with diesel.

Have the top half of the ship covered in lightweight PV cells and electric drives. Quiet and efficient, though energy storage would be the niggle.

Or you could use solar to heat ordinary air to supplement/control lift, cutting down on the helium/hydrogen required. Solar heating of the passive sort must be accounted for anyway with airships, given the volume of gas involved and the fact that outside air temperature/daylight heating does exist.