Teen Creationism

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-12 07:39am

Lusankya wrote:Mainly so we could laugh at them. Are any of us really in serious danger of being converted by dumb-ass little thirteen-year-olds?

Remember, they're much the same as people who say "but ST ships are better than SW ships because they use antimatter in their warp cores, but SW ships have a crappy fusion reaction."

Or perhaps I've just lead a sheltered life. I've never met a Christian fundamentalist, Don't even know where they live. I may have underestimated the danger.

Oh all right then, But if they come in the thousands and become major pains in the backside, I'm holding you responsible.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-08-12 08:42am

Enforcer Talen wrote:course, that means david and moses are going to hell too. I dont think it's as simple as, worship jesus or crispify.

I am going to assume that this is in responce to my post so I will answer a no, 'cause David and Moses are in the old testament before the Massiah, which the new testimate reveals to be Christ in the Christian faith, and Moses was a prophet for God...

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2002-08-12 08:43am

That's a wierd thing to say from someone who comes from The City of Churches

.... most of which have been converted in to nightclubs...

Face it, churches are fading from Australian life (even in the city of Churches). Footy is the new God... C'arn the Crows.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-08-12 10:07am

Crown wrote:Seriously though, my only problem with my own church, I am a Greek Orthodox Christian (equal oldest church in Christendom), is it's uncomprimising nature of who gets to go to heaven and who gets to go to hell.

For examply Christ said; I am the alpha and the omega, and the only way to the father is through me.

Now obviously I paraphrased however if we listen to this message that means that no matter how pious and good you are in this life, if you do not believe in Christ you go to hell! no ifs, no buts. This to me seams unresonable, tha Dalai Lama dies and then god says to him, you didn't believe in my son, and even though you have led a pious and examplary life...<Cartman voice>You go to Hell! You go to hell and die!</Cartman voice> This to me strikes me as rather unacceptable behaivour.

Mind you since the Dalai Lama is always reincarnated this will never happen so disregard all I have said....

If you want an interpretation of that passage which you can be happy with. . .

When he said that, Jesus never actually described what he meant by "the only way to the Father is through me". Often, people (particularly fundamentalists) take it to mean accepting the Christian faith, and acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God.

That idea, however, runs into trouble when confronted with the following idea: 'What about the people who have never even heard of Jesus? Are they doomed to hell through their innocent ignorance?'. The answer (from a non-fundie) is usually 'No. If they lead a good life, despite their ignorance, they will be accepted by Jesus'. In other words, they 'come to the Father through Jesus', not by consciously acknowledging Jesus as God, but rather, by living a good life (particularly as evidenced by the Golden Rule).

From that point, it is a short step to the reasoning that the way to Jesus is not through proclaiming him as the Son of God, but rather, through emulating him in attempting to lead a good life, regardless of your beliefs. Hell, even Paul managed to figure that much out in Corinthians: "Faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love."

Did I mention that being really good at this sort of 'creative reinterpretation' of the Bible was one of the reasons I became an atheist?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-12 10:15am

Darth Yoshi
Mr. B, you have my sympathies. On a side note, Christian fundamentalism may be why half the world hates the US.

That's only part of the reason. The main issue is probably the 'what's good for America is good for the world' policy of the government:
people don't wan't America to interfere with their affairs, they want to be left alone (or at least that's my impression).

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-08-12 10:32am

Lusankya wrote:
That's a wierd thing to say from someone who comes from The City of Churches
.... most of which have been converted in to nightclubs...

Face it, churches are fading from Australian life (even in the city of Churches). Footy is the new God... C'arn the Crows.

Heh. We got a few church-turned-nightclub as well. And it isn't the fundies that worry me (much) - it's the people that voted for Pauline. . .

you got me to look at those Gp4teen forums. . . are they really prepared to cope with someone like me? I mean, I actually went through the phase they're in (Well, I don't think I was ever quite that bad, but still. . .)

Nick · Post by **Nick** » 2002-08-12 10:37am

Cpt_Frank wrote:
Darth Yoshi
Mr. B, you have my sympathies. On a side note, Christian fundamentalism may be why half the world hates the US.
That's only part of the reason. The main issue is probably the 'what's good for America is good for the world' policy of the government:
people don't wan't America to interfere with their affairs, they want to be left alone (or at least that's my impression).

Well, an interfering attitude might be a little more tolerable if it weren't for the heavy Christian fundamentalist influence. Of course, without the heavy fundamentalist influence, their government might not have such an interfering attitude. Go figure.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-08-12 10:42am

Its a hard hard road, Lucky I'm making progress with my Cousin after she tried the Silly well if you slam my belifes I'll slam yourselfs was quickly crushed by me

, So far I've gotten her to admit that Yes Hitler was a Chrisitan and Yes God and Jesus are the same people so Anything God says Jesus says

Still i'm at a bit of a wall here trying to breach new ground to further convice here

The fundies of that forum however are basicly what whould happen if we mass produced Darkstar

Yuri · Post by **Yuri** » 2002-08-12 11:09am

That site is truly scary. I've never seen such horrible logic in my life. It's worse than the logic that they used in the old Batman series.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-08-12 11:15am

Heh. Does anyone remember that episode of Batman wherein the Penguin used heavy water to hydrate those thugs, but they would supposedly convert into antimatter if they got hit? Be pretty funny to see what would really happen. ~20 Gt explosion by my estimates.

You the same Yuri as from SB? If so, you should make that creepy pic of Picard your avatar here.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2002-08-12 11:47am

Ok, That site made me want to vomit.

Whenever I listen to creationists, I want to go up to them and say:
"So, which Creation should we start out with? The one where the proto-Gamera saves/makes the world? or the one with the Samsara Cycle?"

But, that's just me.

Note: I have yet to actually meet a creationist, and I consider myself lucky for it.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2002-08-12 12:25pm

XaLEv wrote:Heh. Does anyone remember that episode of Batman wherein the Penguin used heavy water to hydrate those thugs, but they would supposedly convert into antimatter if they got hit? Be pretty funny to see what would really happen. ~20 Gt explosion by my estimates.

I remember that. My objection to that scene was that that was supposedly a drinking water tap. You aren't supposed to drink heavy water. I accepted the physical impossiblity without a blink. This was Batman, after all.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-08-12 12:42pm

Mr. B, you have my sympathies. On a side note, Christian fundamentalism may be why half the world hates the US.

well considering that all the fundies on the net also happen to be rather right-wing and if you check the b5tech forums seems to lack debating skills, I would not consider it surprising, of course I lived in the liberal northeastern part of the U.S. so I may be sheltered from them, hopefully, though my shithead 12th-grade english teacher does come close.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-08-12 08:02pm

Raxmei wrote: I remember that. My objection to that scene was that that was supposedly a drinking water tap. You aren't supposed to drink heavy water. I accepted the physical impossiblity without a blink. This was Batman, after all.

Hmm. I seem to remember that when he went to put water in the things, he accidently hit a lever that switched it over to heavy water.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2002-08-12 08:35pm

XaLEv wrote:
Hmm. I seem to remember that when he went to put water in the things, he accidently hit a lever that switched it over to heavy water.

I didn't catch that part before.
That changes the realism from ridiculous to simply strange.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-08-12 10:20pm

Crown wrote:Seriously though, my only problem with my own church, I am a Greek Orthodox Christian (equal oldest church in Christendom), is it's uncomprimising nature of who gets to go to heaven and who gets to go to hell.

For examply Christ said; I am the alpha and the omega, and the only way to the father is through me.

Now obviously I paraphrased however if we listen to this message that means that no matter how pious and good you are in this life, if you do not believe in Christ you go to hell! no ifs, no buts. This to me seams unresonable, tha Dalai Lama dies and then god says to him, you didn't believe in my son, and even though you have led a pious and examplary life...<Cartman voice>You go to Hell! You go to hell and die!</Cartman voice> This to me strikes me as rather unacceptable behaivour.

Mind you since the Dalai Lama is always reincarnated this will never happen so disregard all I have said....

Actually, some of the early Dalai Lamas should go to hell. The third (or the fourth, I have to check) has a mentality so Old Testament he would have gotten on with God famously.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-08-13 12:21am

I am in a high school FULL of Creationist Teens. People wear shit about Jesus all the time.
One day, I wore a shirt that said "WWJD.... For a Klondike Bar?
I got sent to the office for that, and had to wear my gym shirt. They told me because that shirt might offend some christian people. I asked did they take into consideration if religious shirts offended people like me. Of course, it fell on deaf ears, and i had to wear my sweaty, smelly gym shirt the rest of the day.
Fucking egocentric Christians

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-08-13 12:29am

SolidSnake wrote: I am in a high school FULL of Creationist Teens. People wear shit about Jesus all the time.
One day, I wore a shirt that said "WWJD.... For a Klondike Bar?
I got sent to the office for that, and had to wear my gym shirt. They told me because that shirt might offend some christian people. I asked did they take into consideration if religious shirts offended people like me. Of course, it fell on deaf ears, and i had to wear my sweaty, smelly gym shirt the rest of the day.
Fucking egocentric Christians

Seriously you should have taken that to the ACLU. They would have put legal pressure on the school for violating your freedom of speech.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-08-13 12:33am

Dammit. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda...

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-08-13 01:02am

SolidSnake wrote: Dammit. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda...

Apparently you didn't take the same govt class I did. Now I always remember the ACLU when I see those t-shirts.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-08-13 01:44am

I read some of that board and was REALLY tempted to post.... but it said teen only so I restrained myself

While I'd like to smack some reasoning ability into those people, its completely pointless. People that have such a complete lack of knowledge of evolution, science in general, and the scientific method, are completely beyond hope.

Resident Creationist · Post by **Resident Creationist** » 2002-08-13 02:57am

Now obviously I paraphrased however if we listen to this message that means that no matter how pious and good you are in this life, if you do not believe in Christ you go to hell! no ifs, no buts. This to me seams unresonable, tha Dalai Lama dies and then god says to him, you didn't believe in my son, and even though you have led a pious and examplary life...<Cartman voice>You go to Hell! You go to hell and die!</Cartman voice> This to me strikes me as rather unacceptable behaivour.

Well, what's actually unfair is this--Why should ANYONE go to heaven. EVERYONE deserves that, and Salvation is a gift. You must accept this gift to be able to go to heaven, and if you don't get it, it's not technically "unfair". However, along with a true faith comes the good works and so forth as a result.

As for the Old Testament people always going to hell, that isn't the case. They followed the Old Testament law which was designed to symbolically cover up the sins, not erase them. And the entire law was focused forward TO Christ's coming. So after a pre-christ practicing Jew would die, they'd go to a special "waiting area" known as Abraham's Bosm, from there, upon Christ's death, up to heaven.

As for this board... I really think it's sad that Christians are using strawman arguments left and right all over this site, and NOBODY there is posting interlligent arguments, it's probably because the Creationists that understand science are scared away from that place almost as much as the average poster here.

I say that you should thoroughly understand what you believe, and why you believe it.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-08-13 03:31am

(Well, what's actually unfair is this--Why should ANYONE go to heaven. EVERYONE deserves that, and Salvation is a gift. You must accept this gift to be able to go to heaven, and if you don't get it, it's not technically "unfair".)

Actually, it is. If you don't follow Jesus you automatically go to hell to be tortured for eternity regardless of who you are or what you've done.

You don't think this is unfair?

Resident Creationist · Post by **Resident Creationist** » 2002-08-13 04:16am

Antediluvian wrote:(Well, what's actually unfair is this--Why should ANYONE go to heaven. EVERYONE deserves that, and Salvation is a gift. You must accept this gift to be able to go to heaven, and if you don't get it, it's not technically "unfair".)

Actually, it is. If you don't follow Jesus you automatically go to hell to be tortured for eternity regardless of who you are or what you've done.

You don't think this is unfair?

Well, it's sort of similar to the parable about the workers, in that, a man hired some workers who agreed to work the whole day for a greater-than-usual pay. Later in the day, after several hours had gone by, the same worker hired more poeple. And at the end of the day, the people had worked for different lengths of time, but were all paid the same amount of money (I admit, it isn't exactly the same). This made the people who worked longer very angry, but the fact of the matter was, they were already getting a good deal, and more than they deserved (as well as what they agreed to)

Also, what you do does affect things somewhat. If you have more of an opportunity to learn, and so forth, you'll be held more accountable than the guys in Africa who may only hear about it once or twice in a lifetime, so Salvation is determined by your faith, but how accountable you are, how much was expected from you, and so forth affect what degree of Heaven or Hell you'll recieve.

I do admit that many concepts in Christianty are very strange, especially if you look at them from a certain perpective.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-13 12:46pm

Resident Creationist wrote:Well, it's sort of similar to the parable about the workers, in that, a man hired some workers who agreed to work the whole day for a greater-than-usual pay. Later in the day, after several hours had gone by, the same worker hired more poeple. And at the end of the day, the people had worked for different lengths of time, but were all paid the same amount of money (I admit, it isn't exactly the same). This made the people who worked longer very angry, but the fact of the matter was, they were already getting a good deal, and more than they deserved (as well as what they agreed to)

What does that parable have to do with the injustice of being tortured for all eternity just because you didn't pledge allegiance to some narcissistic deity?

Also, what you do does affect things somewhat. If you have more of an opportunity to learn, and so forth, you'll be held more accountable than the guys in Africa who may only hear about it once or twice in a lifetime, so Salvation is determined by your faith, but how accountable you are, how much was expected from you, and so forth affect what degree of Heaven or Hell you'll recieve.

"Accountable" for what? Sins defined in some fucked-up value system where murder and checking out another woman's ass are considered equal? Sins whose definition is predicted upon the moral authority of a rampaging homicidal lunatic who wipes out entire cities, has bears devour children, and even annihilated the entire planetary population at one time, apart from one lousy boatload of survivors?

The notion of a being like this presuming to hold anyone "accountable" for "sins" (most of which are completely victimless, such as failing to pledge allegiance to him or worship his son) is simply ludicrous. Worse yet, in cases where genuine sin (crimes with victims) occurs, the notion that this being has the right to forgive you on behalf of the victim is even more ludicrous.

I do admit that many concepts in Christianty are very strange, especially if you look at them from a certain perpective.

Any outside perspective will do. Liberal Christians I have no problem with, but they're the ones who don't really believe in Hell.