The War On Tobacco

[Lord_Xerxes]

Pretty well, I would think. If people wanted to smoke the damn things that bad then they deserve what they get. Or if they're that addicted.

Question though, what about second hand cynanide smoke? Did you consider if this is applicable? (not sure if that would even work.) Ah, fuck it. Just chalk it up to collateral damage.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

As I said before:

You put cyanide in random cigarettes. And have a label on the pack that says "WARNING: ONE OR MORE OF THE CIGARETTES IN THIS PACK MAY CONTAIN CYANIDE!!"

You make the ratio of cyanide cigs/regular cigs high enough so there's an actual threat.

And you make some laws so it's all legal.

How well would something like that work?

Dave Barry had a similar plan, but not as leathal. Put a load (toothpic soaked in gasoline) in one in 20 cigarettes. When the smoker gets to the load it goes off in a big bang and everyone arround him laughs while he tries to restart his heart.

[Darth Servo]

I also didn't say it was a good way to deal, or if it was good for others. But it works for me. I know it'll fuck me up later in life, but like most other smokers, I just don't care about it in this point. I'm sure I will later. But maybe by then they'll start cloning lungs or something. LOL.

You don't care!?! And THAT is one of the HUGE PROBLEMS with it. I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR HEALTH BILLS 20-30 YEARS FROM NOW.

If you compare it to the way some other people deal with stress...alcohol, more potent drugs, or a downright mental break down-induced rampage, it's more mild. Although, I bet you'll respond with alcohol and more potent drugs don't have the second hand effect that smoking does. But then again, depends on how the person handles those things too.

I am just as much against alcohol and drug abuse as I am against Tobacco. Just because stealing isn't as bad as killing that doesn't mean we shouldn't crack down on thiefs.

To each his own, I suppose.

ONLY if it doesn't harm others and tobacco use has been DEMONSTRATED to hurt people besides the one who uses it. Get it. It isn't just "your own"

Besides, if they raise cigarette prices, what will prisoners use to barter for metal shivs and make-shift knives?

PLEASE tell me this was intended as a joke.

No. I think it (what happened) is bs too. (completely ridiculous?) I didn't say that that one action of one person meant the entire country would change. I was relating a story that applied to my opinnion. I think a majority of people will quite smoking if this goes national. And good for them too. It'll help the people that don't have the self-control to normally do it on there own.

BULLSHIT. I quote from your first post in this thread.

And I'd like to point out, if they were to bump cigs up to $10 a pack, you're not finding a logically solution. You're just openning a window for an increased amount of other health problems. Such as the people that start trying to smuggle them in from places that are cheaper. Black market shit. Or, like I mention on my website, cigs will become so expensive that people will start to kill each other over them. (Which ironically, a few months after I mentioned this, this actually happened in the town I work. Small, nice (sic) town...where this guy went ballistic and beat his mother to deal, hit an old lady with his dirt bike, kidnapped a girl, and killed a boy that was a random passerby. And what was the origin of this murderous rampage? His mother wouldn't give him money for a pack of smokes...) These brand of laws will only make it so the more financially set of society can smoke, and then the crime rate will go up as those who can't afford 'em start jacking up people for 'em.

Sounds to me like you were trying to say that heavy taxation of cigs would lead to violent behavior.

And they tried prohibition to, and because the majority rebelled against it, and didn't not agree, it was rolled over.

There's a difference between heavily taxing something and making it illegal.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Servo, I'll pay for my own Healthcare problems.

It was intended as a joke.

And I did say that what happened was ridiculous. It was. As I said, ironically this recently happened in the town I worked. The prices went up, someone didn't want to pay for them, and violent behaviour happened. But that doesn't mean that this will happen EVERYWHERE with everyone. I just mentioned that ironicaly, it did in this case. That's all.

[Darth Servo]

Servo, I'll pay for my own Healthcare problems.

Even when you're on medicare in your old age (should you last that long).

[Kelly Antilles]

Tax it. Tax it for all it's worth. Use those tax dollars for EDUCATION and helping the farmers who produce tobacco to find another crop to plant. I live in Tobacco Road. I see tobacco farms every time I drive anywhere. These farmers know nothing else. They need to be educated on how to farm another crop. They'll need different machinery for whatever other crop they choose to grow. That tax money should help with that too.

(yeah, I'm late into the thread, but I just saw it.)

[Durandal]

Smokers may consume a disproportionate amount of healthcare, but the heavy taxes on cigarettes ensure that the net outcome is that they are actually paying more back to society than they are taking away. This is the only conceivable reason I can think of to tax cigarettes. Since society is more than breaking even with smokers, I say leave the current taxes.

I'm a light smoker; I don't harbor delusions of having the "right" to smoke indoors where there are nonsmokers. It's just impolite. I do most of my smoking outdoors, and I advocate restaurants either being smoke-free or having a walled-off smoking section. If I was a nonsmoker, I wouldn't want smoke drifting over to my table from a restaurant. Restaurants are private establishments, and smoke from cigarettes has been shown to deteriorate drywall. If a restaurant doesn't want you smoking in their place, I can't say I blame them.

[Galvatron]

Smokers may consume a disproportionate amount of healthcare, but the heavy taxes on cigarettes ensure that the net outcome is that they are actually paying more back to society than they are taking away. This is the only conceivable reason I can think of to tax cigarettes. Since society is more than breaking even with smokers, I say leave the current taxes.

I'm a light smoker; I don't harbor delusions of having the "right" to smoke indoors where there are nonsmokers. It's just impolite. I do most of my smoking outdoors, and I advocate restaurants either being smoke-free or having a walled-off smoking section. If I was a nonsmoker, I wouldn't want smoke drifting over to my table from a restaurant. Restaurants are private establishments, and smoke from cigarettes has been shown to deteriorate drywall. If a restaurant doesn't want you smoking in their place, I can't say I blame them.

Same.

I wish the government and the non-smokers would quit trying to save me from myself by turning me into a fucking criminal.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Tax it to hell.

Make them help fund health care with their rediculous health-harming habit.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Well, so far, it hasn't been effective. I'm sure all the warnings want to make the teens do it even more.

Raising taxes will jsut bankrupt smokers, and a ban won't work, just like prohibition didn't work.

Besides, isn't freedom of stupidity protected in the constitution? If people want to stink and cough a lot, they should be able to.

Sure, we can't advertise cigarretes on TV, but they're all over magazines, and on billboards next to schools.

Only the tobacco companies that have been adding addictive chemicals to their cigarettes should be punished.

[Darth Servo]

Same.

I wish the government and the non-smokers would quit trying to save me from myself by turning me into a fucking criminal.

Who's trying to make smoking illegal? Most people in the pole said TAX it more.

I'll say this again. We're not just trying to save you from yourself, we're trying to save everyone around you from yourself as well. Everyone around a smoker suffers because of it and I'm NOT just talking about second hand smoke. I'm talking about long term health effects and the same kind of suffering that occurs from being around alcoholics. ANY drug addiction hurts those around the user.

BTW, nice Avitar fellow Trans fan.

[Durandal]

Who's trying to make smoking illegal? Most people in the pole said TAX it more.

Tax it to hell.

Make them help fund health care with their rediculous health-harming habit.

There's no reason to tax cigarettes anymore than they already are. The government has already taxed smokers to such an extent that they are bringing in more tax money than they are paying out in the form of healthcare for smokers. I think it's time to stop raising taxes in cigarettes.

Only the tobacco companies that have been adding addictive chemicals to their cigarettes should be punished.

Agreed. I'm not sure to what extent nicotine, by itself, is addictive. I smoke clove cigarettes, which have more nicotine that regular cigarettes, but I'm nowhere near addicted. I never get a yearning for a cigarette; I just smoke around smokers and don't smoke around nonsmokers.

[Colonel Olrik]

I'm just curious. How much does a package cost in the U.S?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I'm not sure, as it varies depending on location, but isn't it generally about $5?

[Mr Bean]

The government has already taxed smokers to such an extent that they are bringing in more tax money than they are paying out in the form of healthcare for smokers. I think it's time to stop raising taxes in cigarettes.

Bullshit, a Single Year of Heathcare in the US for a Cancer Suffering Smoker costs over $30,000-$180,000 Depending on how far advanced they are and you think a Doller a Pack will cover that?

I'm not sure, as it varies depending on location, but isn't it generally about $5?

2.40$ at my Local Gas Station, 90 Cents of which is tax

[Slartibartfast]

I hate smokers as much as the next non-smoking guy, so I'm being fairly honest when I say this:

The government doesn't tax addictions (or very necessary goods, like beer) because they want people to quit. They do it because it KNOWS that a lot of people won't be able to quit, that they'll have to get the money somewhere to buy it, and it's a quick way to get more cash for the treasury coffers. You can tax most things and it will have a big impact on demand, but things like tobacco or alcohol will simply net you more money.

That said, I agree that the tax should be increased to cover the increased healthcare required by smokers (I really don't understand much of this 'free healthcare' because there's barely such thing where I live)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think I've heard that taxes in NYC could make them as high as $7 a pack, but I can't remember the exact details of the article.

[Durandal]

Bullshit, a Single Year of Heathcare in the US for a Cancer Suffering Smoker costs over $30,000-$180,000 Depending on how far advanced they are and you think a Doller a Pack will cover that?

From the alt.smokers FAQ...

In a NEJM editorial (AP-NY-10-08-97):it states:
"Jan J. Barendregt and others from Erasmus University in the Netherlands
calculated that at any given age, health care costs for smokers are indeed
as much as 40 percent higher than for nonsmokers. And if everyone quit,
health care costs would plummet for a few years. However, nonsmokers live an average of about seven years longer than smokers, and medical costs for the elderly are high. So 15 years after everyone quit, total health care costs would level off at about 7 percent higher for men and 4 percent higher for women than they were before. "

And, in JAMA.( Manning et al, "The taxes of sin...", JAMA:261:1604
(1989)), researchers found that smokers actually should get paid up to
$1.28/pack by NONSMOKERS to fully equalize the costs/savings ratio.

Finally, a Congressional Research Service study concluded that: "Midrange estimates ... suggest net external costs from smoking in the range of 33 cents per pack in 1995 prices, an amount that by itself is too small to justify either current cigarette taxes or the proposed tax increase. "

I'm not sure, as it varies depending on location, but isn't it generally about $5?

I pay $5 for a pack of 20 cloves, which is fine by me. One pack usually lasts me a week and a half to two weeks.

[RedImperator]

Taxing cigarettes out of the price range of regular smokers is an idiotic idea for at least three reasons:

1. Forcing up the price will make smuggling untaxed cigarettes lucrative enough to create a black market. This is already a problem in western New York, where cigarette taxes are high and there are a number of places where smokes can be purchased tax-free nearby (duty-free stores at border crossings and Indian reservations).

2. War on Drugs effect: the majority of robberies and thefts in the United States are for money to purchase drugs. This won't be as severe with high cigarette taxes, but could become a problem, especially in poorer areas.

3. Raising the prices high enough will encourage smokers to either quit (admittedly a good thing) or find another way to acquire cigarettes. In southern New Jersey, where I am, it's a 30 minute drive to Delaware, where cigarettes are about $25 a carton, compared to over $40 here. In many places, people can buy from Indian reservations. Driving smokers to quit or cross state lines to buy cigarettes would represent a major loss of revenue for 49 states (in Hawaii, smokers are kinda fucked). Considerng that pretty much all 50 are operating with huge budget deficits, this is a high price to pay for puritanism.

[Utsanomiko]

And you have the right to endanger your own life, of course, by spraying me with pepper spray. Beware the lemon meringue pie...

Raoul you remeber I'm the other gun nut on the board? I walk around with a .45 and two clips at all times right? Plus the Knives of course

But I carry The Lemon Meringue Pie... beware the Pie... (In case you can't tell, I'm trying to lighten the mood a little. Things are getting a little too tense in this thread. Sorry.)

Daniel, you can't threaten people with pies; this isn't Bugsy Mallone.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Taxing cigarettes out of the price range of regular smokers is an idiotic idea for at least three reasons:

1. Forcing up the price will make smuggling untaxed cigarettes lucrative enough to create a black market. This is already a problem in western New York, where cigarette taxes are high and there are a number of places where smokes can be purchased tax-free nearby (duty-free stores at border crossings and Indian reservations).

2. War on Drugs effect: the majority of robberies and thefts in the United States are for money to purchase drugs. This won't be as severe with high cigarette taxes, but could become a problem, especially in poorer areas.

3. Raising the prices high enough will encourage smokers to either quit (admittedly a good thing) or find another way to acquire cigarettes. In southern New Jersey, where I am, it's a 30 minute drive to Delaware, where cigarettes are about $25 a carton, compared to over $40 here. In many places, people can buy from Indian reservations. Driving smokers to quit or cross state lines to buy cigarettes would represent a major loss of revenue for 49 states (in Hawaii, smokers are kinda fucked). Considerng that pretty much all 50 are operating with huge budget deficits, this is a high price to pay for puritanism.

Red, I touched somewhat briefly on this points, but I pretty much got no-sold by the majority. Thank you for fleshing this out a little bit more, and a little bit better than I did.

Also red, you live in Deptford, NJ? I used to live there. I'm in Mapleshade. Where in Deptford?

[salm]

criminalize it? hell no. i think everyone should decide what he inhales, swallows or sends up his vein.

i think everything should be allowed, from cigarettes to heroine.

another thing is: when i go to a bar or a pub i want to have smoke there. a pub without smoke is not a pub.
i know that that´s not possible in america because there are so many americans who cant even stand next to person who´s smoked his last cigarette half an hour ago without having a major asthmatic attack.

get rid if guns instead of cigarettes!

[RedImperator]

Also red, you live in Deptford, NJ? I used to live there. I'm in Mapleshade. Where in Deptford?

I grew up in Oak Valley. Technically, I'm still a resident at my parents' house there, though I spend most of my time in Pennsylvania (I go to school here).

[Kelly Antilles]

3. Raising the prices high enough will encourage smokers to either quit (admittedly a good thing) or find another way to acquire cigarettes. In southern New Jersey, where I am, it's a 30 minute drive to Delaware, where cigarettes are about $25 a carton, compared to over $40 here. In many places, people can buy from Indian reservations. Driving smokers to quit or cross state lines to buy cigarettes would represent a major loss of revenue for 49 states (in Hawaii, smokers are kinda fucked). Considerng that pretty much all 50 are operating with huge budget deficits, this is a high price to pay for puritanism.

Well, in that case, rase the tax on gas too. Hit 'em both ways.

[salm]

3. Raising the prices high enough will encourage smokers to either quit (admittedly a good thing) or find another way to acquire cigarettes. In southern New Jersey, where I am, it's a 30 minute drive to Delaware, where cigarettes are about $25 a carton, compared to over $40 here. In many places, people can buy from Indian reservations. Driving smokers to quit or cross state lines to buy cigarettes would represent a major loss of revenue for 49 states (in Hawaii, smokers are kinda fucked). Considerng that pretty much all 50 are operating with huge budget deficits, this is a high price to pay for puritanism.

Well, in that case, rase the tax on gas too. Hit 'em both ways.

tax gas anyway. 3$ per liter would be ok.