Zero is Not a Number!

[haas mark]

"Zero is a number because zero is a whole number?" I am not sure why you are taking exception to my simple proof. I answered the question and I removed all room for argument, so this is what our conversation has become? Yecch.

Dictionary definition. Much simpler than convoluted logic.

Thank you. Number = number. Whole number = number. Zero = whole number, therefore it IS a number, because whole numbers are numbers.

[Larz]

Actually, the concept and theory of zero is a number, zero itself is a loop given many different meanings. Just to throw a monkey wrench into the machine.

[haas mark]

Actually, the concept and theory of zero is a number, zero itself is a loop given many different meanings. Just to throw a monkey wrench into the machine.

Then every other number is a concept and theory, which, by the way, throws off our concept of time, currency, and everything in between.

[Larz]

Actually, the concept and theory of zero is a number, zero itself is a loop given many different meanings. Just to throw a monkey wrench into the machine.

Then every other number is a concept and theory, which, by the way, throws off our concept of time, currency, and everything in between.

Yes, hence time doesn't exist. Without the prepetual forward of everything from one moment to anothes (since the past is obliterated, only the account of what once was remains) that means that there is no reality. Nothing exists, so why are we argueing since we don't exist? Don't tempt my fuzzy logic.

To be serious though, numbers are nothing more but concepts dictated by logical ordering of such. Thus, zero happens to be a number because it is a concept of a number.

[haas mark]

Actually, the concept and theory of zero is a number, zero itself is a loop given many different meanings. Just to throw a monkey wrench into the machine.

Then every other number is a concept and theory, which, by the way, throws off our concept of time, currency, and everything in between.

Yes, hence time doesn't exist. Without the prepetual forward of everything from one moment to anothes (since the past is obliterated, only the account of what once was remains) that means that there is no reality. Nothing exists, so why are we argueing since we don't exist? Don't tempt my fuzzy logic.

I'd like to see what Wong has to say about that one....

To be serious though, numbers are nothing more but concepts dictated by logical ordering of such. Thus, zero happens to be a number because it is a concept of a number.

And every other number as well, in that case. And if they are only concepts, as oposed to definite things, then that throws quite a bit of things off.

[data_link]

As for numbers being abstract concepts and not real things, this is absolutely correct. You cannot for instance, show me one. No, I don't mean one of something, just one. No, I don't mean the symbol for 1, or the word one, I mean show me one. It is absolutely impossible, because one is a purely abstract concept, like all other numbers. That the calculations derived from them always correspond so well to reality though, is an indication that this abstract concept corresponds to a fundamental truth about reality, in much the same way that the law of gravity corresponds to the fundamental truth about the relationship between two masses, the distance between them, and the force they exert on each other.

[Larz]

Exactly, don't be so narrow minded Verilon, every number is just a concept. "0", "1" and everything is just a concept, sure its based off of a naturally observed object, but to actually say "1" exists in the true essence of the form is false. Infinity is a number by mathematical standards (and math is in itself a concept too), yet you could not show my infinity for it is nothing more but a concept. Just because I say "0" or "1" or any number is a concept doesn't make the concept any less standing.

[haas mark]

Okay makes sense. But in definition, it's still a number....just not a physical thing.

[Bob McDob]

Like all numbers, zero is a concept and does not exist, per se. You could use complex mathamatical equations to deny the fact, but you cannot deny that I cannot walk into a Kwik-e-Mart and buy zero hot cross buns. And the subtraction cop-out is just that - a cop-out. How idiotic is it to say "I want four minus four Big Macs?". And you're still left with one thing - zero. How can you tell there are really zero magical unicorns in the universe? If a light shined on a spacecraft moving at C, would it still cause headaches?

<J>Further, quantum theory teaches us that since all particles are in motion, zero of anything cannot truly at one moment exist!</J>

[Bob McDob]

Furthermore, if you feel compelled to mention there are zero of anything, there is something seriously screwed-up in the nature of the argument you are in.

[Bob McDob]

BTW, this thread should probably be renamed to "Does Nothing Exist?"

[Nick]

BTW, this thread should probably be renamed to "Does Nothing Exist?"

Ah, but now we're getting into the question of concrete reality versus abstract reality.

Concrete reality is those bits of reality that, if you hit someone hard enough with them, they will cause pain.

Abstract reality is those bits of reality that, if you force someone to think about them hard enough, they will cause pain.

Pain is part of the human experience, both forms of reality cause pain, hence both forms of reality are equally real.

(C'mon, you really expected a serious argument at this point?)

[fennyCWAL]

Actually, the Arabs got the definition of zero from India. All in all, only three civilizations have, by themselves, invented the notion of zero. The Maya, the Inca, and India.

[haas mark]

Actually, the Arabs got the definition of zero from India. All in all, only three civilizations have, by themselves, invented the notion of zero. The Maya, the Inca, and India.

THat was covered a looooooooooooong time ago.