God as an Imperfect Creator

[Darth RyanKCR]

How does a spiritual change cause a physical change? You want a physical answer only and the answer is more metaphysical which you just discount and won't except. Also how can God create an imperfect world? Well I said he didn't it was corrupted later. My question to you is: If there is no God, no outside objective standard to compare to what makes you say that this world is imperfect? By your interpretation of the facts of the universe it is running as it should? What gave you the idea that there was something wrong?

are you going by biblical literalism or not here? even the fucking bible states that humanity is no longer perfect, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's not. though i'm not seeing much of a point at your end. you were getting to one, right?

[/b]

The point was a question of if God is perfect how could he make such an imperfect world. I stated that it was perfect when created and as you just stated that it is no longer perfect. The point is that it became so after creation. Man was allowed to be tempted with the full knowledge of his fall in order to bring about a greater good. My question was that how do those who do not believe in the Bible know that it is not perfect when their sceince is telling them how everything is.

About the contradiction about free will the fall and perfection I just wrote that it was for a greater good. A good example is Anakin. He was the promised one who would balance the Force. Well he fell, so I guess the Force is not what pretended it to be. No he fell and was redeemed and in the process ended the evil that was occuring. The greater good. See Even Star Wars has big Biblical principles in it.

[Queeb Salaron]

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. I don't believe I have to explain this again.

How does a spiritual change cause a physical change? You want a physical answer only and the answer is more metaphysical which you just discount and won't except.

It is precisely the physical condition of Creation with which the OP concerns itself!! See below.

Also how can God create an imperfect world? Well I said he didn't it was corrupted later.

No, it was imperfect to begin with. Adam and Eve were created naked, a state that was objectively judged as sinful after eating the fruit. Their natural state was sinful, and therefore imperfect.

My question to you is: If there is no God, no outside objective standard to compare to what makes you say that this world is imperfect?

Oh, I don't know... Might have something to do with the fact that it is money, not brotherly love, that runs the world. Might be that man is caught in a perpetual state of sin. Might have to do with global injustice, natural disasters, disease, famine, plagues, blights, etc. The world is not all bad, of course, but it's hardly perfect in the Edenistic sense. And then, even Eden wasn't perfect.

Are we getting the point yet?

By your interpretation of the facts of the universe it is running as it should? What gave you the idea that there was something wrong?[/quote]

[Darth Wong]

How does a spiritual change cause a physical change? You want a physical answer only and the answer is more metaphysical which you just discount and won't except.

Yet again, you simply rephrase your excuse to avoid the question. How can a "metaphysical" change cause a physical change, you evasive cunt? First you say that perfection was "corrupted" by sin. When asked how sin causes physical corruption, you respond that sin caused "spiritual corruption", which in turn causes physical corruption; still no explanation of how that physical corruption is caused or what the preceding perfect human looked like. Then when challenged on that, you simply substitute "metaphysical" for "spiritual", once again completely ignoring the fact that this still fails to explain physical changes and also refusing to answer the question of what the fuck this "perfect" human would have looked like. Perfection is simply not in the human form, nor could it be in anything that was remotely human in structure. So what the fuck kind of creature was this perfect human?

Also how can God create an imperfect world? Well I said he didn't it was corrupted later. My question to you is: If there is no God, no outside objective standard to compare to what makes you say that this world is imperfect?

What the fuck makes you think that your belief in God is an "outside objective standard?" And what the fuck makes you think that perfection in a living being is possible, even theoretically?

By your interpretation of the facts of the universe it is running as it should? What gave you the idea that there was something wrong?

Did you pay someone to give you multiple concussions until you became this stupid?

Something doesn't have to be "wrong" for a system to be working at less than perfection. My automobile engine is working properly, yet it is not thermodynamically perfect.

[Slartibartfast]

And this is the crux of the whole thing. God could have prevent or created us in such a way as to keep us mindless robots but He wanted free will beings to choose Him.

That's irrelevant. Perfect people will never make mistakes. So unless eating the fruit was not a mistake, he wouldn't have done it.

[Superboy]

I stated that it was perfect when created and as you just stated that it is no longer perfect. The point is that it became so after creation.

If I build a machine that runs well for an hour before catching fire and completely falling apart, was that a well-built machine?

[Slartibartfast]

I stated that it was perfect when created and as you just stated that it is no longer perfect. The point is that it became so after creation.

If I build a machine that runs well for an hour before catching fire and completely falling apart, was that a well-built machine?

I see you've been playing The Sims a lot

[Gil Hamilton]

How does a spiritual change cause a physical change? You want a physical answer only and the answer is more metaphysical which you just discount and won't except. Also how can God create an imperfect world? Well I said he didn't it was corrupted later. My question to you is: If there is no God, no outside objective standard to compare to what makes you say that this world is imperfect? By your interpretation of the facts of the universe it is running as it should? What gave you the idea that there was something wrong?

If it was corrupted, then it wasn't a perfect world. Vulnerablity to corruption is a flaw and actually becoming corrupt is more of one. Perfect items cannot have flaws and cannot develop them. That's why perfection is an unreachable standard, unless you define it in an arbitrary fashion.

[SirNitram]

I stated that it was perfect when created and as you just stated that it is no longer perfect. The point is that it became so after creation.

If I build a machine that runs well for an hour before catching fire and completely falling apart, was that a well-built machine?

No. It's an atrocious fucking failure and, if you had been engineer, you'd lose at least your job. If suffering was involved(Say, oh, the suffering of six billion individuals due to your shoddy workmanship..), you'd be in serious legal trouble for violating ethical codes and endangering lives.

[Queeb Salaron]

This may be a bit pre-emptive, but...

[Darth RyanKCR]

I rethought this a bit. If you say that free-will is an imperfection then it was an intentional imperfection. God wanted a people who would choose Him. Would you appreciate the love of someone who freely choose to love you or had no choice? We choose to reject Him created this fallen state and yet God loves us so much that he provided a way back to Him. Which was the plan from the beginning.

Now you want to condem Him as evil, when (per my beliefs and per the Bible) all things came to be by Him, who does He have to answer to? came to be by HiAll things m. Outside of his creation who does He have to answer to? Us? He created us. What authority do we have over him? We answer to Him.

[General Zod]

I rethought this a bit. If you say that free-will is an imperfection then it was an intentional imperfection.

addressing each point as i see it. . .

an intentional imperfection is still an imperfection.

God wanted a people who would choose Him. Would you appreciate the love of someone who freely choose to love you or had no choice?

telling someone that they can either love you unconditionally or suffer for eternity isn't love. it's more akin to a sadistic egomaniac that throws a tantrum whenever someone doesn't do exactly as he commands.

We choose to reject Him created this fallen state and yet God loves us so much that he provided a way back to Him. Which was the plan from the beginning.

see above.

Now you want to condem Him as evil, when (per my beliefs and per the Bible) all things came to be by Him, who does He have to answer to? came to be by HiAll things m.

ever hear the phrase absolute power corrupts absolutely? most people wouldn't consider slaughtering thousands upon thousands of people for refusing to stroke someone's ego 24/7 to be an act of a loving person.

Outside of his creation who does He have to answer to? Us? He created us. What authority do we have over him? We answer to Him.

so what? emperors used to be under the same delusion. just because someone might hold authority over us doesn't make their actions ethical or acceptable.

[Darth Wong]

I rethought this a bit. If you say that free-will is an imperfection then it was an intentional imperfection. God wanted a people who would choose Him.

Yet they choose otherwise, more often than not. Therefore, if this was God's design goal, he failed utterly.

Would you appreciate the love of someone who freely choose to love you or had no choice?

What's the difference between creating a being who is compelled to love you and telling him that he'd better love you or you'll hurl him into a lake of fire? Either way it's not truly free will. If you set something free, that sort of implies that you don't torture it for disobeying.

We choose to reject Him created this fallen state and yet God loves us so much that he provided a way back to Him. Which was the plan from the beginning.

You still haven't explained what a "perfect" world would look like. Would it have weather patterns? What would creatures eat? Were there no bacteria? What incredible changes would have taken place between this perfect world and the present world, and how could there be enough commonality between two such vastly alien places to have the same creatures and plants inhabiting both?

Now you want to condem Him as evil, when (per my beliefs and per the Bible) all things came to be by Him, who does He have to answer to? came to be by HiAll things m. Outside of his creation who does He have to answer to? Us? He created us. What authority do we have over him? We answer to Him.

Ah yes, the "might makes right" philosophy. Suppose Satan overthrows God and becomes the supreme ruler. Would you agree that Satan must be good because he now answers to no one?

[Gil Hamilton]

I rethought this a bit. If you say that free-will is an imperfection then it was an intentional imperfection. God wanted a people who would choose Him.

Whoa whoa whoa... so we are allowed free will as long as we only chose one option in exclusion to all else and get punished otherwise? What was the point on Free Will again if we only get one acceptable choice?

Would you appreciate the love of someone who freely choose to love you or had no choice? We choose to reject Him created this fallen state and yet God loves us so much that he provided a way back to Him. Which was the plan from the beginning.

Sounds like a sick mind game to me.

God: "You have a choice! You can choose to love me of your own free will or you can suffer eternally!"

Not much of a choice huh? What's the point of being able to choose if you can't say "No"? Ah, such "love".

Now you want to condem Him as evil, when (per my beliefs and per the Bible) all things came to be by Him, who does He have to answer to? came to be by HiAll things m. Outside of his creation who does He have to answer to? Us? He created us. What authority do we have over him? We answer to Him.

Hah hah hah. When all else fails, use the "Well, he's the ultimate authority. Who are you to judge him?" That justifies every single shithead dictator and tyrant in history. I'm going to hit you with some Thomas Paine here. All authority of any leader (be it a group, an individual, or a god) worth having is derived and given by the consent of the lead. Anything else is tyranny and makes the lead people slaves. At that point, the lead have every right to tell the leader to go to hell. Assuming a god exists, he's still answerable to us and if not, he's not worth worshipping, following, or obeying.

I'll take freedom, myself.

[Petrosjko]

Biblicial free will is a useless concept, an excuse to wave away the many flaws of the bible story as it stands.

Slaves have free will, but no rational person will ever argue that they're actually free. Political prisoners toiling away in gulags have free will too, but no rational person will ever argue that they're actually free.

There are people who will argue that they're free, though. They're the advocates of those abominable systems and institutions.

Of course, the difference between those aforementioned cases and literal Christianity is that escape is a possibility in the former, whereas in the latter God shits all over anybody who didn't jump on the bandwagon in time. No hope, no escape, suffering for all eternity. Nasty piece of work, that, and directly designed by a 'loving Creator'.

[Superboy]

God wanted a people who would choose Him.

So, why exactly didn't they choose him?

Forgeting for a moment the debate over whether man actually has free will, lets assume Adam really did have a free choice. Why did he choose to sin?

The fact that Adam did not have the intellegence or the will power or even the loyalty to choose to obey God, shows that he is imperfect.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps our latest fundie apologist could also do us the honour of explaining how a "perfect" man could be ignorant of morality.

[Slartibartfast]

Ok, according to RyanKFC or whatever, these are the actions of a perfect human being (one of the requisites of being perfect would be not to be a stupid idiot, methinks):

God: don't eat this fruit. If you do, I'll kick you out, and you will die. It's a bad thing. Do you understand?
Man: yeah, ok

5 minutes later
Snake: hey dude, eat the fruit
Man: um, but God said bad things would happen
Snake: no they wont!
Man: ah, okay *munch munch*

[DPDarkPrimus]

Ok, according to RyanKFC or whatever, these are the actions of a perfect human being (one of the requisites of being perfect would be not to be a stupid idiot, methinks):

God: don't eat this fruit. If you do, I'll kick you out, and you will die. It's a bad thing. Do you understand?
Man: yeah, ok

5 minutes later
Snake: hey dude, eat the fruit
Man: um, but God said bad things would happen
Snake: no they wont!
Man: ah, okay *munch munch*

I guess the perfect human being has no concept of authority.

[Queeb Salaron]

Maybe Ryan can explain why it is that the "perfect" man is considered to be so without the basic knowledge of good and evil. This may be akin to criminally insane people failing to differentiate right from wrong.

If lack of moral consciousness is what the Bible considers to be "perfect," then it's no wonder fundies are such abhorrent morons.

Also, Ryan, could you PLEASE address Wong's point about what the perfect world/human being looked like, and how a change in the spirituality of man caused a change in his physical environment?

While you're at it, please also address my point (and the point raised in the damned OP) about man being created in an objectively evil state of nakedness.

Furthermore, address this point: You say that God intended for man to be created with free will for the express purpose that love born of free will is greater than love that is forced. This is a great theory, but can you point out to me a passage in the Bible that explicitly states that? Because I can't find it.

[Darth RyanKCR]

Perfect human: No death, no aging, no diease, etc. Sin caused death to enter. Which is what God said would happen.

Why did Adam fall? There have been many discussions and debates about it. My personal belief... It was the bargin trick about going bigger first. Satan asked if they could not eat of all trees. Subtely calling into question God's motives. When corrected he then said how good it looked and how it would make them wise to be like God. Also by hinting by lying that God was keeping them from something. Satan turned a Black and white issue into a gray issue.

Nakedness in of itself is not sinful. It is man's fallen state that causes sinful reactions to it that is the problem. God only made the clothes after the fall and because of the fall. Why is knowing evil a good thing? Before the fall there was no evil in the world why did we need to experience it. If it did not enter there would have been no evil? Is that not perfect? If it isn't that what is?

[General Zod]

so where the fuck did evil come from then? was it something god didn't know about? did god make it? god supposedly made everything, so he either made it or at least knew about it. if it entered without his knowing, then he'd be far from omniscient and omnipotent, and thus fallible, supposing that by some chance he actually existed.

[Queeb Salaron]

Perfect human: No death, no aging, no diease, etc. Sin caused death to enter. Which is what God said would happen.

For the last time

HOW DID SIN CAUSE DEATH TO ENTER?

Satan asked if they could not eat of all trees.

No he didn't. The snake did. Snake != Satan. That's just a modernist interpretation.

Satan turned a Black and white issue into a gray issue.

Yes yes. We know WHY Eve ate the fruit (Adam ate it SECOND, not first as you incorrectly intimate). The question is, how is a perfect creation subject to temptation? And how is a perfect world not devoid of evil and its subsequent ability to tempt? And why is evil more alluring than good? This is not the description of a perfect world. If Eden was God's idea of a perfect world, then God is an imperfect creator.

Nakedness in of itself is not sinful. It is man's fallen state that causes sinful reactions to it that is the problem.

Really, now you're just making stuff up.

Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They realized they were naked, and that this was evil (read: sinful). They covered themselves up so as not to be in a state of sin when they next encountered God.

God only made the clothes after the fall and because of the fall.

Yeah, except God didn't make the clothing. Adam and Eve did. Seriously, read the fucking Bible. Genesis. It's right in the beginning. You can't miss it. And at a whopping two dozen pages, I'm sure it'll keep you up all night.

Why is knowing evil a good thing? Before the fall there was no evil in the world why did we need to experience it. If it did not enter there would have been no evil? Is that not perfect? If it isn't that what is?

There WAS evil before the fall!! J8"VC!!

If there was no evil before the fall, explain to me how the snake was able to tempt Eve, when the concept of temptation itself is evil. If there was no evil before the fall, explain to me how Adam and Eve knew that their nakedness was evil after the fall. If there was no evil before the fall, WHY WAS THERE A FUCKING TREE CALLED "THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL"??

[felineki]

Yeah, except God didn't make the clothing. Adam and Eve did. Seriously, read the fucking Bible. Genesis. It's right in the beginning. You can't miss it. And at a whopping two dozen pages, I'm sure it'll keep you up all night.

IIRC, God actually did make clothes for them. Adam and Eve made coverings themselves when they realized that they were naked, but after God confronted them, he made clothes for them (from animal skins, I think) as he booted them out of Eden.

[Petrosjko]

Yeah, except God didn't make the clothing. Adam and Eve did. Seriously, read the fucking Bible. Genesis. It's right in the beginning. You can't miss it. And at a whopping two dozen pages, I'm sure it'll keep you up all night.

IIRC, God actually did make clothes for them. Adam and Eve made coverings themselves when they realized that they were naked, but after God confronted them, he made clothes for them (from animal skins, I think) as he booted them out of Eden.

"Get your asses out of here, but cover them up first. I'm tired of fucking staring at them."

Sounds about right.

Uh, in a perfect world where does the snake come from, anyway?

It was explained to me that God made humans because the angels were perfect and hence... boring... I suppose. So if they were perfect, why did so many of them go for Lucifer's revolution?

If God so loved Lucifer, why didn't he sit down and talk things over with him before it broke out into open warfare? Being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and all, what precisely kept Him from staving off the whole thing?

[Darth RyanKCR]

Yeah, except God didn't make the clothing. Adam and Eve did. Seriously, read the fucking Bible. Genesis. It's right in the beginning. You can't miss it. And at a whopping two dozen pages, I'm sure it'll keep you up all night.

IIRC, God actually did make clothes for them. Adam and Eve made coverings themselves when they realized that they were naked, but after God confronted them, he made clothes for them (from animal skins, I think) as he booted them out of Eden.

"Get your asses out of here, but cover them up first. I'm tired of fucking staring at them."

Sounds about right.

Uh, in a perfect world where does the snake come from, anyway?

It was explained to me that God made humans because the angels were perfect and hence... boring... I suppose. So if they were perfect, why did so many of them go for Lucifer's revolution?

If God so loved Lucifer, why didn't he sit down and talk things over with him before it broke out into open warfare? Being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and all, what precisely kept Him from staving off the whole thing?

Actually Lucifer was the problem. He was so full of pride that he felt that the should be equal to or greater then God, forgetting that he was created by God. A creation is not equal or greater then its Creator.

Job maybe a good answer as to why God allows evil. Why Adam and Eve were allowed to be tempted. Satan accused God that the only reason that Job served and loved Him was because He blessed Job. So God allowed Satan to test him and Job passed and God richly rewarded him, because Job knew who his Creator is.

Now I ask you, in reference to a thread like this and others like it, when can a pot demand, ask, or whater of the Potter when the Potter is the one shapping the clay?