Conspiracy Theories -- Which Do you believe?

[JointStrikeFighter]

Well MGS2 had the cool Y2K Patch allowed the evil US to plant there spy program in every computer, I have to admit that was a damn cool conspiracy.

I used to believe in all the UFO conspirfacies, but now i think there crap.

[RedImperator]

The Titanic-Olympic switcheroo is hellatiously stupid, but not near as fucking stupid as this one:

The Titanic - In 1912 the English cruise liner Titanic sank to the bottom the north Atlantic, taking some two-thirds of its passengers to their deaths. The tragedy, the largest cruise liner disaster of its time, was long attributed to an iceburg both by those on the ship and those on board rescue vessels. The ship lay undiscovered for over seventy years until Dr. Robert Ballard of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute led an expedition which successfully located the sunken legend. Subsequent missions to the Titanic thoroughly examined the shattered hull; armed with new evidence came to a startling conclusion: the Titannic had been torpedoed. By 1912 the Germans had perfected the U-boat and had built several prototypes for testing. The German government, with its distrust of England, set to prove the English wrong when they proclaimed the ship "unsinkable." The U-boat slipped quietly into the North Atlantic and came upon the luxury liner. In a stroke of good fortune, the ship happened to pass next to an iceburg; the Germans, realizing that the iceberg would mask their actions, torpedoed the starboard side of the hull. The resulting hull damage sank the Titanic and many of its passengers. Afterwords, the German U-boat slipped quietly back to port and into the shadows of history.

Copied from here.

That makes perfect sense, considering the large explosion and fountain of water...oh, wait.

Is there something about Titanic that makes people not think their conspiracies through?

[Rye]

Oh, I just remembered some conspiracies my brother and I cooked up that are quite reasonable:

1)AV software companies do hire virus makers to help defend against more of their kind. I'm guessing they do write viruses and then write an antivirus definition to put in the next update.

2) Dentists went private in the UK because if they ever went on strike, they couldn't hold the country to ransom. Also, there are probably cultured or engineered dental friendly bacteria or something that would wipe out tooth decay causing bacteria, or the research to make them is being delayed by dentists so they stay in a job.

3) Opticians purposefully prescribed inferior lenses than the ones you needed so you'd have to keep going back to them.

Other than those, there's the old favourite of the kurt cobain being killed by courtney love one...

[VT-16]

Aliens in the sky -- Not sure. Just because the government has admitted the are some unexplainable events documented by credible people like airline pilots.

I think the closest thing to a government conspiracy with this comes from not knowing the origin or intent of these things and trying to maintain a sense of security, even if it´s false.

Think about it, if you were a top brass in the military, got evidence for something strange going on in your airspace and being completely unable to stop it, wouldn´t you want to avoid mass-panic by trivializing it and pretending everything is under control? No malicious intent, simply concerned that things might get out of hand if people become aware that the military is completely stumped by it.

JFK, grassy knoll -- I don't believe it was a grand conspiracy but I do believe that Oswald did not act alone. Whether it was the Mafia or a rogue part of the government is uncertain in my mind.

I only need to look at the Zapruda film to tell Oswald wasn´t alone (or even involved), Kennedy gets hit in the head from the FRONT and slumps BACKWARDS, for fuck´s sake!

[Tommy J]

JFK, grassy knoll -- I don't believe it was a grand conspiracy but I do believe that Oswald did not act alone. Whether it was the Mafia or a rogue part of the government is uncertain in my mind.

I only need to look at the Zapruda film to tell Oswald wasn´t alone (or even involved), Kennedy gets hit in the head from the FRONT and slumps BACKWARDS, for fuck´s sake! [/quote]

I've always wondered why any credible forensic scientist would come to any other conclusion based on that visual physical evidence.

To assert he was only hit from the back is to completely deny that it clearly shows on the film his head going backwards. A bullet strike from the back wouldn't cause that reflex reaction.

W/o reading volums of the Warren Commission report, how the hell did they come to the lone gunman conclusion?

[VT-16]

I believe it is one of the rare instances where magic was accepted as viable proof. The single bullet went back and forth between the front and back of the car, hitting Kennedy several times and injuring the guy sitting in front of him. Quite a bullet.

[RedImperator]

JFK, grassy knoll -- I don't believe it was a grand conspiracy but I do believe that Oswald did not act alone. Whether it was the Mafia or a rogue part of the government is uncertain in my mind.

I only need to look at the Zapruda film to tell Oswald wasn´t alone (or even involved), Kennedy gets hit in the head from the FRONT

So how did Connaly get hit from behind? Are you contending the bullet bounced? Turned around in midair? Explain this one to me.

and slumps BACKWARDS, for fuck´s sake!

The way he slumped had absolutely nothing to do with how he was hit. Rifle bullets don't have enough kinetic energy to knock a man over, or else the act of firing them would knock over the rifleman as well. On the other hand, the back brace he was wearing held him upright and would have prevented him from falling forward.

[VT-16]

So how did Connaly get hit from behind? Are you contending the bullet bounced? Turned around in midair? Explain this one to me.

See above. It´s a magic bullet that goes back and forth and then exits his body in the hospital to land on his stretcher.

[/quote]The way he slumped had absolutely nothing to do with how he was hit. Rifle bullets don't have enough kinetic energy to knock a man over, or else the act of firing them would knock over the rifleman as well. On the other hand, the back brace he was wearing held him upright and would have prevented him from falling forward.[/quote]
I´m not talking about knocking someone over, I´m talking about pure reaction to being hit. At least moving the head slightly forwards instead of backwards.

[RedImperator]

JFK, grassy knoll -- I don't believe it was a grand conspiracy but I do believe that Oswald did not act alone. Whether it was the Mafia or a rogue part of the government is uncertain in my mind.

I only need to look at the Zapruda film to tell Oswald wasn´t alone (or even involved), Kennedy gets hit in the head from the FRONT and slumps BACKWARDS, for fuck´s sake!

I've always wondered why any credible forensic scientist would come to any other conclusion based on that visual physical evidence.

Probably because they know more about forensics than you.

Link to an interview with a physicist specializing in wound ballistics debunking the "Kennedy's head moved backwards! Conspiracy! LOLZOR!" crap.

To assert he was only hit from the back is to completely deny that it clearly shows on the film his head going backwards. A bullet strike from the back wouldn't cause that reflex reaction.

Physicists and forensic scientists with experience in bullet wounds disagree wit you. Try again.

See above. It´s a magic bullet that goes back and forth and then exits his body in the hospital to land on his stretcher.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from. You contend Kennedy was shot from the front. I asked how Connaly, who was sitting in front of Kennedy, got hit from behind, if that's true. Do you have an explanation for that or not?

I´m not talking about knocking someone over, I´m talking about pure reaction to being hit. At least moving the head slightly forwards instead of backwards.

You're still wrong. See above. Also see this, a "serious" conspiracy site that thoroughly debunks amateur conspiracy nonsense like what you and Tommy J are purveying.

Honestly, how do people simultaneously believe the government has conducted a grand conspiracy involving dozens, maybe hundreds of people and kept it secret for 40 years, yet simultaneously made mistakes so glaring that total amateurs who know nothing about physics, ballistics, forensics, or any other relevant field can unravel the whole thing.

[VT-16]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from. You contend Kennedy was shot from the front. I asked how Connaly, who was sitting in front of Kennedy, got hit from behind, if that's true. Do you have an explanation for that or not?

The explanation is one magic bullet or multiple shots from the back.

I fail to see how bumbling forensics, bullets that can seemingly disappear and reappear at will and an investigative commision discounting any evidence to the contrary of "one man did acted alone" somehow invalidates a possible conspiracy.

[VT-16]

Man, from that site´s findings the whole thing seems like a giant mess, only solid piece of information I got from that was "don´t trust conspiracy-theorists too much". And the head thing seems even weirder than first thought, they can´t seem to agree on entry/exit, but there was only one bulletwound and it´s from the back?

[RedImperator]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from. You contend Kennedy was shot from the front. I asked how Connaly, who was sitting in front of Kennedy, got hit from behind, if that's true. Do you have an explanation for that or not?

The explanation is one magic bullet or multiple shots from the back.

I fail to see how bumbling forensics, bullets that can seemingly disappear and reappear at will and an investigative commision discounting any evidence to the contrary of "one man did acted alone" somehow invalidates a possible conspiracy.

You're asserting a conspiracy, so guess where the burden of proof lies? The Warren commission's mistakes only prove that the Warren commission was inadequete to the task given it. It's up to you to actually provide evidence of a conspiracy, which thus far you have completely failed to do.

[Perinquus]

JFK, grassy knoll -- I don't believe it was a grand conspiracy but I do believe that Oswald did not act alone. Whether it was the Mafia or a rogue part of the government is uncertain in my mind.

I only need to look at the Zapruda film to tell Oswald wasn´t alone (or even involved), Kennedy gets hit in the head from the FRONT and slumps BACKWARDS, for fuck´s sake!

I've always wondered why any credible forensic scientist would come to any other conclusion based on that visual physical evidence.

To assert he was only hit from the back is to completely deny that it clearly shows on the film his head going backwards. A bullet strike from the back wouldn't cause that reflex reaction.[/quote]
Actually, bullets have been observed to do exactly that. They cause reactions in the body of the target that have nothing to do with the path of the bullet and it's point of impact. It's called a neuromuscular spasm. Here you can see a video of a goat having one, after it had been shot in an experiment:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/goat.rm

You see some animals have neuromuscular spasms continuing several moments after death. Ever see a snake writhe and twist for several seconds after you step on its head? Or a chicken run around a barnyard for several minutes after it's head's been cut off?

Think about it for a moment. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the bullet had enough kinetic energy to throw Kennedy's upper body backward so violently on impact, there would have been an equally vicious recoil from the gun, that would similarly throw the firer violently backward. It was something else that caused Kennedy's backward jerk -- a neuromuscular spasm, and they have nothing to do with what direction the bullet was coming from.

Even people who are themselves conspiracy theorists, and who believe that Kennedy was hit by a bullet fired from the grassy knoll have had to admit (the honest ones that is), that simple newtonian physics is'nt much use in determining how people will react to a shot. Cyril Wecht is a forensic pathologist who believes that Kennedy was shot by a gunman from the grassy knoll. But But when called as a expert witness in the Menendez retrial, he stated (excuse the caps, I pasted this from a transcript of his testimony, and that's how it was):

YOU SEE, WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THESE THINGS ON A PURELY ENGINEERING BASIS, YOU'RE FORGETTING THAT THE HUMAN BODY HAS MOVEMENT AT JOINTS AND YOU'RE FORGETTING THAT THE HUMAN BODY HAS MOVEMENT THAT IS CONTROLLED VOLUNTARILY OR EVEN INVOLUNTARILY BY THE PARASYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE PROBLEM IN TRYING TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM A PURELY MECHANICAL ENGINEERING OR PHYSICIST STANDPOINT. SOME OF THE CONCEPTS, INDEED, ARE APPLICABLE AND RELEVANT, BUT YOU HAVE TO THEN FACTOR IN THE BIOLOGICAL ELEMENT, THE ENTIRE NEUROMUSCULAR SYSTEM AND SO ON, ALL OF THE VOLUNTARY AND INVOLUNTARILY REFLEXIVE ASPECTS OF IT, AS WELL AS WHAT SOMEBODY SETS OUT TO DO IN THIS KIND OF A SITUATION. AND HERE, YOU KNOW, SIR NEWTON AND OTHERS JUST NEVER DEALT WITH THOSE THINGS. THEY DEALT WITH STATIONARY OBJECTS MOVING IN A CERTAIN FASHION WHEN OTHER OBJECTS STRIKE THEM OR ARE STRUCK BY A MOVING OBJECT, AND THAT'S JUST A VERY DIFFERENT SITUATION.

W/o reading volums of the Warren Commission report, how the hell did they come to the lone gunman conclusion?

Because the evidence is fully consistent with that conclusion. Kennedy was hit by two bullets fired from behind and above his position. One was a head shot, and a neuromuscular spasm caused his violent backward jerk. The other hit him in the upper back, and passed through his body to hit Governer Connally. The bullet did not have to take any kind of zig zagging, "magic bullet" path to do it either. The conspiracy theorists who claim that it did, always show Kennedy and Connally seated as follows:





These drawings, taken from Groden and Livingstone's High Treason show Kennedy and Connally seated at the same height, and directly in line with one another.

Small problem. That wasn't how they were actually seated. Check out this photo of the presidential limo, taken after it was returned to Washington:



You can clearly see how much higher Kennedy's seat was.

Here's another photo which shows the relative heights of Kennedy and Connally as seated in the car:



And this photo shows how much farther inboard Connally was sitting than Kennedy was:



The actual alignment of the two men was more like this:



Thus making it perfectly possible for a single bullet to have wounded both men. (Incidentally, Kennedy's back wound is placed too low on his back by Groden and Livingstone in their drawing, making it appear that the bullet had to turn sharply upward before leaving his body. The wound was actually higher, so the bullet still took a straight path, and came out at the base of his throat.)

[Rye]

I remember a show where they reproduced the kennedy assassination completely to scale in lightwave, with a single bullet drawing a line straight through kennedy and the guy in the front. Based on how they moved in the assassination and recreated CG video, their injuries were entirely consistent with one bullet. It's a settled matter.

a link

"It leaves no room for doubt," said Tom Yellin, executive producer of the special, narrated by Peter Jennings. He called the results of the ABC's study "enormously powerful. It's irrefutable."

...

ABC News worked with an expert who created a computer-generated reconstruction of the shooting based on maps, blueprints, physical measurements, more than 500 photographs, films and autopsy reports, ABC said.

It enables a person to view the scene from any number of perspectives, including what Oswald saw from the sixth floor of the former Texas school book depository, Yellin said.

[VT-16]

You're asserting a conspiracy, so guess where the burden of proof lies?

I see where this is going. Sorry I brought it up in the first place. The more I look at the evidence at hand, the less it appears to be a conspiracy. Shows how much weight I put on Oliver Stoner´s interpretations.

The Warren commission's mistakes only prove that the Warren commission was inadequete to the task given it. It's up to you to actually provide evidence of a conspiracy, which thus far you have completely failed to do.

To be fair, you never asked for proof of an organized plot against Kennedy. And so far it seems there isn´t that much room for one.

[Big Phil]

Don't forget the "FDR knew every single solitary detail about the Pearl Harbor attack but let it all happen anyway in order to get the US into World War II" conspiracy.

Granted, the US War Department was pretty much getting the transmissions from Tokyo before the Japanese embassy was, but most people who foresaw a war between Japan and the United States expected the first strike to be at the Phillippines, not Hawaii. Manila is a lot closer to Tokyo than Honolulu is, after all.

The History Channel, while doing documentaries on conspiracy theories, included this particular gem. One historian brought up a good point: most of the people that argue for the conspiracy basically just refuse to believe that the US military could legitimately be ambushed and suffer a major defeat at the hands of a foreign power, particularly a non-white one.

They also use the fact that Lexington, Saratoga, and Enterprise were away from Pearl Harbor (Saratoga in transit to Pearl Harbor, Lexington delivering fighters to Wake Island, and Enterprise on maneuvers) to support this idea. They conveniently forget that prior to mid-1942 battleships were thought, by everyone including the Japanese, to be the most important capital ships around. This is why the Japanese planned to sink all of the American battleships first, with the carriers to follow.

[Assassin X]

Nasa and goverment are hiding an alien that crashed in Area 51 who was actually Elvis who in fact killed JFK and happens to be GOD....oh and the vehicle is actually the Mars Land Rover!!!!





Btw you want some weird people....or interesting and fun reading..dont take it seriously...unless your into it. Go here:

http://forums.armageddononline.org/

[Molyneux]

Moon Hoax -- ...no. Just no. Stupid theory.

Aliens at Roswell -- Eh...probably not. I wouldn't discount the possibility of advanced weapons/vehicle/technology testing, though; that could account for some need for secrecy.

Aliens in the sky -- Possible, but not that likely. Experimental aircraft, maybe?

JFK, grassy knoll -- *shrug* Don't know, don't really care.

Aids introduced by US govt -- ...if true, then that's the DUMBEST damn governmental conspiracy ever. And I don't think it's true.

Bigfoot -- Possible; jury's still out on that one. Same thing with the Loch Ness Monster and sea serpents (*coughKRAKENcoughCOELOCANTHcough*)

Vampires -- Possible, kinda cool if true, but I wouldn't bank on it without something testable.

Ghosts -- I would think there's probably SOMEthing there, but as to the souls of the departed? Not sure. Kinda cool if true, though.

Holocaust apologists -- SCREW YOU, bastards. My grandfather was a Holocaust survivor; if it wasn't for Hitler, I'd have about a hundred more relatives right now.

[Max]

I believe there is a cure for HIV and Cancer, but the pharmaceutical corps. make too much money off the medications that keep the people alive.

[RedImperator]

I believe there is a cure for HIV and Cancer, but the pharmaceutical corps. make too much money off the medications that keep the people alive.

Right. There's no cure for any virus from the common cold to Ebola, but somehow a grand conspiracy of pharmaceutical companies developed a cure for HIV--along with all the prerequisite advances in biological science that would be necessary to actually cure any viral disease, let alone a retroviral disease--in secret. Furthermore, no single company in this grand conspiracy has looked at its books and decided to fuck over its competitors by coming forward and becoming the sole provider of this AIDS cure to the entire world. Nor does one single scientists, lab technician, or manager among the thousands of people who would necessarily been involved in such a process has a guilty conscience, or is afraid of what will happen if they're discovered to be hiding a cure for AIDS, and thus nobody's come forward. Nor has any shareholder, accountant or ombudsman noticed the hundreds of millions, possibly billions of dollars that would have been spent developing a cure for AIDS going missing for no good reason.

Ditto cancer, except since cancer can be caused by random mutations and thus will never be completely eradicated the way a disease caused by a microorganism theoretically could, the pharmaceutical companies are sitting on a miracle drug that could make money for them forever.

Overall, this conspiracy theory is only slightly less stupid than "HIV doesn't cause AIDS at all" and slightly more stupid than "AIDS was created in a lab".

[Max]

Although the sarcasm was 'neat'. You can't be certain for 100% that my fun little conspiracy is completely false. You never know. That's why it's a conspiracy theory and not fact.

[RedImperator]

Although the sarcasm was 'neat'. You can't be certain for 100% that my fun little conspiracy is completely false. You never know. That's why it's a conspiracy theory and not fact.

I can't be 100% certain an invisible fire-breathing dragon isn't reading this over my shoulder, either. The fact that neither I nor anyone else can 100% disprove any asinine conspiracy theory doesn't lend any of them or their adherents one iota of credence.

[Solauren]

My father believes that anti-virus software companies hire people to write viruses. Probably because he, like I, can't see what anyone could possibly think they would gain by deleting eight thousand personal hard drives.

If I recall correctly, some current Anti-virus people used to be virus programmers.

Tell your Dad is the computer-geek equal of graffiti/verbal masterbation

[Solauren]

I have no trouble beliving in Bigfoot and sea monsters, just not the 'tabolid versions of them'

Reason: We are still finding new species.

Big Foot and Sea Monsters are a bit of a STRETCH, but not totally unfeasible.

Big Foot could be a type of mountain ape. (the only land terrain we have yet to find a species of Ape)

Sea Monsters could be big snakes ala Anaconda.

And I COULD be related to every Royal Family in the world and will be declared Fully-powered Legal Emperor by there and the various governments they figure-head tomorrow.

Doesn't mean it's true however

[Petrosjko]

My father believes that anti-virus software companies hire people to write viruses. Probably because he, like I, can't see what anyone could possibly think they would gain by deleting eight thousand personal hard drives.

If I recall correctly, some current Anti-virus people used to be virus programmers.

Tell your Dad is the computer-geek equal of graffiti/verbal masterbation

Ah, missed that one.

Yes, great idea! Hire some talent to create viruses. Viruses wipe out data all over the place.

Then the freelancer goes public with his ties to Symantec or whoever... as such people are wont to do, the damned loose cannons, and the legal and economic reprecussions are... unpleasant. Not to mention the potential jail time for various corporate officers.

Oh, and Assassin X's image is a load of shit. Anybody who'd actually done their homework on that particular shot would have known that the largish rock slightly to Elvis' left was what he used to mark the spot where he buried Jimmy Hoffa and the real Hope Diamond. Frickin' amateurs always omit important details.