Does anyone deserve hell?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-04 12:27am

Sean Gray wrote:Yeah, I noticed that first post. I thought maybe the fiery hell Necron was talking about was of the metaphorical type that I mentioned. Still, my argument stands. Just replace "separation from God" with "separation from God...and also fiery pitchfork rape."

No, MY point still stands--most people on this very bbs ALREADY feel like their lives are completly devoid of God and they DON'T see it as a bad thing.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 12:35am

OK, that's fine. But if you don't believe in God why are you bothering to discuss the mechanics of hell?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-04 12:43am

Sean Gray wrote:OK, that's fine. But if you don't believe in God why are you bothering to discuss the mechanics of hell?

Because there are other definitions than the one you gave.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 12:54am

I thought we were discussing the "standard christian hell," to quote the original poster.

What definition are you supporting?

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2005-10-04 12:57am

No one deserves Hell forever.

In fact, I think Lucifer himself got it way too rough considering.

felineki · Post by **felineki** » 2005-10-04 01:02am

jareth1138 wrote:Felineki, I am sorry if I offended you, I made my post really without think and I accept the responsibility of my mistake. Although I did pull my original statement back, I will hereby pull all of my statements back,
My apologies.

Accepted. I can understand that there are many games that by all definitions do suck, but to punish their creators with eternal fire and brimstone is a bit much.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-04 01:10am

Sean Gray wrote:I thought we were discussing the "standard christian hell," to quote the original poster.

What definition are you supporting?

The "standard christian hell" is eternity of suffering in a lake of fire. You were discussing something that might not even be considered a punishment.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:32am

The standard Christian hell is eternity of suffering in a lake of fire? Pope John Paul II (former leader of the world's largest Christian group) disagrees with you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Roman_Catholicism

Wikipedia wrote:The present Roman Catholic view of Hell is stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from Him for ever by [one's] own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'Hell'." Thus, Pope John Paul II said, "The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, Hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

You're confusing the popular image of hell with the actual Christian definition.

Darth Servo wrote:You were discussing something that might not even be considered a punishment.

I would iimagine, if you were a Christian, separation from God would have to be considered a punishment. And we are discussing the Christian hell.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:36am

And I just stumbled across this: (God, I love Wikipedia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_Hell

If you're looking for some other opinions on the subject.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-10-04 11:25am

The fact is that God doesn't separate us from Him. We're the ones that do the separating. If you've spent your entire life in defiance of God, in becoming evil, in turning away from good, you won't even be able to stand in His presence. Your corrupted, naked soul couldn't take it.

So where does this leave the virtuous atheist? I don't believe in God but I don't do evil.

You're confusing the popular image of hell with the actual Christian definition.

As I already noted, many Christians do believe in the "popular image," quite forcefully, and they have a good deal of Biblical support. As I do not speak for all atheists, you do not speak for all Christians.

I think that the OP was about a place similar to which fundamentalists think most of us would wind up.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-10-04 11:27am

Anguirus wrote:
The fact is that God doesn't separate us from Him. We're the ones that do the separating. If you've spent your entire life in defiance of God, in becoming evil, in turning away from good, you won't even be able to stand in His presence. Your corrupted, naked soul couldn't take it.
So where does this leave the virtuous atheist? I don't believe in God but I don't do evil...well, I try my hardest anyway.

You're confusing the popular image of hell with the actual Christian definition.
As I already noted, many Christians do believe in the "popular image," quite forcefully, and they have a good deal of Biblical support. As I do not speak for all atheists, you do not speak for all Christians.

I think that the OP was about a place similar to which fundamentalists think most of us would wind up.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-10-04 11:28am

Well...perhaps I should say I try not to do evil. As a Christian might say, we're all sinners to some degree.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 11:29am

Anguirus wrote:
The fact is that God doesn't separate us from Him. We're the ones that do the separating. If you've spent your entire life in defiance of God, in becoming evil, in turning away from good, you won't even be able to stand in His presence. Your corrupted, naked soul couldn't take it.
So where does this leave the virtuous atheist? I don't believe in God but I don't do evil.

According to Christian fundie dogma, you are evil. You are evil for these reasons:

1) You do not worship God.This makes you evil.
2) You have desires for things you don't have. This makes you evil.
3) You are human. This makes you evil.
4) You are not perfect. This makes you evil.

Remember that Christian fundies do not distinguish between "less than perfect" and "evil". As far as they are concerned, they are the same thing. It is the mother of all black/white fallacies. Their belief system is set up to declare everyone equally evil and then conclude that they need "salvation" in the form of someone who will magnaminously "forgive" them for being evil. Yes, by simply gazing at pretty girl walking by on the street, you became just as evil (in terms of Christian dogma) as Adolf Hitler.

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2005-10-04 11:58am

I believe that it is very possible that the idea of the fire and brimstone Hell was a concept brought into Christianity in order to increase conversions because no one would really want to spend an eternity in a burning Hell of their own free will.

Now, taking the idea of the bible that "by the one man, Adam, sin came into the world, by the one man, Jesus (the "second Adam") all shall be made alive." (That was from 1 Corinthians 15:22.) If one believes that the work of the creation, the first Adam, can trump the work of the creator, the second Adam, then one can conclude that no one will wind up in Hell. However, exactly what each person will experience after death is unknown.

Food for thought.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2005-10-04 12:11pm

Magnetic wrote:I believe that it is very possible that the idea of the fire and brimstone Hell was a concept brought into Christianity in order to increase conversions because no one would really want to spend an eternity in a burning Hell of their own free will.

Undubitably. However, the popularization of the fire and brimstone sermon (an almost uniquely American phenomenon; Europeans just don't get it) can be traced to just one man--Jonathan Edwards. Edwards was greatly influenced (very ironically) by Locke in this regard, particularly the distinction between simple and complex ideas. It was a straightforward realization: one can't keep one's congregation by appealing to complex (abstract) ideas, wheareas simple ideas are immediate and get results.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 12:18pm

I seem to recall someone saying that very early Jewish religious writings described everyone (saints and sinners alike) going to a place called "Sheol", and they got the idea of a dichotomy between heaven and hell from interaction with some other culture (perhaps Persian). Does anyone know more about this?

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 12:51pm

Anguirus wrote:
The fact is that God doesn't separate us from Him. We're the ones that do the separating. If you've spent your entire life in defiance of God, in becoming evil, in turning away from good, you won't even be able to stand in His presence. Your corrupted, naked soul couldn't take it.
So where does this leave the virtuous atheist? I don't believe in God but I don't do evil.

That's a tricky one. The short answer is that I simply don't know, and neither does anyone else, regardless of what the religious zealots might tell you. I am in no position to tell you whether or not such and such a person is going to hell. That's completely between them and God.

The more complex answer depends on the person we're talking about. I've met some awesome atheists, just as I've met some Christians that I would love to punch in the neck. And once again I can't tell you who's more deserving of hell. But here are some things for the righteous atheist to think about:

On what grounds did you reject God? Did you truly search your soul for any trace of the divine, or was it based on a materialistic desire to reject anything that couldn't be directly observed? Did you even give the concept of God serious thought at all, or did you just disregard it on the grounds that you could lead an earthly life perfectly well without it? Did you look down on people who did believe, or mock their beliefs?

If there is a God, these (and more) are all questions that the righteous atheist may have to answer for when he dies.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-10-04 01:02pm

Sean Grey, the nature of hell is actually irrelevant to the argument being discussed in the OP. The argument is whether or not eternal punishment (IE forever) could possibly be a just punishment non-infinite "sin". Whether or not it's burning in a lake of fire being poked by guys in red horned pajamas or eternal seperation from God on an abstract level, how can any crime be great enough to warrant being punished for all eternity, particularly since by all accounts the punishment is torture of some manner?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 01:07pm

Sean Gray wrote:On what grounds did you reject God? Did you truly search your soul for any trace of the divine, or was it based on a materialistic desire to reject anything that couldn't be directly observed? Did you even give the concept of God serious thought at all, or did you just disregard it on the grounds that you could lead an earthly life perfectly well without it? Did you look down on people who did believe, or mock their beliefs?

If there is a God, these (and more) are all questions that the righteous atheist may have to answer for when he dies.

You mean "if there is the Christian God". And I notice that none of those sins you mentioned involve actually harming anyone.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:09pm

Darth Wong wrote: 1) You do not worship God.This makes you evil.
2) You have desires for things you don't have. This makes you evil.
3) You are human. This makes you evil.
4) You are not perfect. This makes you evil.

Remember that Christian fundies do not distinguish between "less than perfect" and "evil". As far as they are concerned, they are the same thing. It is the mother of all black/white fallacies. Their belief system is set up to declare everyone equally evil and then conclude that they need "salvation" in the form of someone who will magnaminously "forgive" them for being evil. Yes, by simply gazing at pretty girl walking by on the street, you became just as evil (in terms of Christian dogma) as Adolf Hitler.

I don't know too much about fundamentalists, but Christianity as I know it and follow it considers no human being to be evil. Satan is evil, of course, and it's from him that the temptation to do evil comes from, but us mere humans are just sinners. This includes you, me, the Pope, and Mother Theresa. Even Christ had to be baptized to remove himself from original sin.

From your post, Wong, I can't tell whether or not you're saying that fundamentalists consider themselves and anyone else who followers their faith to be free of evil. If so, they're missing an extremely central tenet of Christianity, and I would be very surprised to hear that they even consider themselves Christians.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 01:11pm

Sean Gray wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: 1) You do not worship God.This makes you evil.
2) You have desires for things you don't have. This makes you evil.
3) You are human. This makes you evil.
4) You are not perfect. This makes you evil.

Remember that Christian fundies do not distinguish between "less than perfect" and "evil". As far as they are concerned, they are the same thing. It is the mother of all black/white fallacies. Their belief system is set up to declare everyone equally evil and then conclude that they need "salvation" in the form of someone who will magnaminously "forgive" them for being evil. Yes, by simply gazing at pretty girl walking by on the street, you became just as evil (in terms of Christian dogma) as Adolf Hitler.
I don't know too much about fundamentalists, but Christianity as I know it and follow it considers no human being to be evil. Satan is evil, of course, and it's from him that the temptation to do evil comes from, but us mere humans are just sinners. This includes you, me, the Pope, and Mother Theresa. Even Christ had to be baptized to remove himself from original sin.

From your post, Wong, I can't tell whether or not you're saying that fundamentalists consider themselves and anyone else who followers their faith to be free of evil. If so, they're missing an extremely central tenet of Christianity, and I would be very surprised to hear that they even consider themselves Christians.

You obviously missed the entire point of my post. Of course fundamentalists consider themselves to be evil. They consider everyone to be evil because of the Mother of all Black/White fallacies, as I pointed out (and which you conveniently ignored in your reply).

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:16pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Sean Grey, the nature of hell is actually irrelevant to the argument being discussed in the OP. The argument is whether or not eternal punishment (IE forever) could possibly be a just punishment non-infinite "sin". Whether or not it's burning in a lake of fire being poked by guys in red horned pajamas or eternal seperation from God on an abstract level, how can any crime be great enough to warrant being punished for all eternity, particularly since by all accounts the punishment is torture of some manner?

Then refer to my original post. Restated simply, it is: "By living a life of sin, you have turned your soul into something so corrupted that you couldn't stand to be in God's presence. There is absolutely no choice but for you to be distanced from God.

Darth Wong wrote:You mean "if there is the Christian God". And I notice that none of those sins you mentioned involve actually harming anyone.

If there is a Christian God, then you are harming yourself by rejecting Him.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:18pm

Darth Wong wrote: You obviously missed the entire point of my post. Of course fundamentalists consider themselves to be evil. They consider everyone to be evil because of the Mother of all Black/White fallacies, as I pointed out (and which you conveniently ignored in your reply).

I see that now. My apologies.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-10-04 01:26pm

Sean Gray wrote:Then refer to my original post. Restated simply, it is: "By living a life of sin, you have turned your soul into something so corrupted that you couldn't stand to be in God's presence. There is absolutely no choice but for you to be distanced from God.

How exactly does this process work? Also, you didn't answer the question of what could possibly be a big enough crime for you to be ejected to "Hell" for all eternity as to claim to be just.

Besides, if this was true, people would be ejected from reality the moment their "Sin Counter" turned over to a high enough number to warrant "Hell". After all, certainly a man who opens fire in a shopping mall of his own volition and sound mind and guns down a bunch of teenagers is going to warrant "Hell" strictly on that action, but he could potentially live a long life in "God's Presence" before dying and actually going to "Hell". Obviously, a person can exist just fine in God's presence even with massive amounts of "Sin" on their soul.

Further, this speaks nothing about rehabilitation. Punishment for all eternity? Eternity is a long time to fix what ever problems you had in a satisfactory manner.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 01:27pm

Sean Gray wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You mean "if there is the Christian God". And I notice that none of those sins you mentioned involve actually harming anyone.
If there is a Christian God, then you are harming yourself by rejecting Him.

Two points:

1) That is not a case of verifiable harm.
2) The harm is being inflicted by God, not you. It's like saying that it's sinful to speak your mind under a dictatorship because the dictator might torture you. That "sin" is on the part of the dictator.

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Does anyone deserve hell?

Does anyone deserve to go to hell?