Arguing with antiwar

[The Dark]

Saddam himself is the problem.
Remove Saddam.
Problem solved.

A simple theory nearly impossible to implement without a war. How do you take out a man whose location has been unknown for 12 years? We haven't seen him since the end of the Gulf War, only body doubles. As much as I dislike the idea of killing people, I don't see any way out of this war for multiple reasons. Allowing Hussein to have WMDs would be irresponsible in the least. He has attacked at least three countries unprovoked (Iran, Kuwait, and Israel). If he had nuclear weapons, none of those countries or any of the others bordering Iraq would be safe. As has been pointed out, Hussein IS the government of Iraq. He is a dangerously unstable man who does not seem to have any concern for anyone other than himself...not even his own family.

The difference between Iraq and North Korea is that NK already has nuclear weapons. If we move against the PRNK, Seoul's gone. That simple. They also have two known nuclear weapons and missiles capable of reaching Japan. The damage that could be done to the Orient would be horrible, and we don't have the military there to do anything about it. North Korea may be dangerous, but they're at least somewhat predictable. Iraq is not.

[Stravo]

Now, that out of the way, I say fine if you point out that fighting the actual ARMY is gg to entail civilian deaths. I don't dispute that. I DO dispute this wholesale rushing off to war thing. I DO think we can depose Saddam.

Rushing off to war?
We've had the fucking Resoluting for a year and a half now! We've had the second one for over five months now! HOW FUCKING SLOWER DO YOU WANT TO GO?

ZERO miles per hour. We don't need all-out warfare.

Why ask the fucking question if you already made up your mind? If its obvious to you that we should not make war then thats it, your mind is made up and by you repeating that a million times isn't going to change a fucking thing. There is nothing short of an attack on the US that would move you to even THINK about going to war, that much is obvious since firing on our people for ten years, going on a crash course for WMD and having connections to the same terrorists networks that would love to get their hands on one equals BAD MOVE on our part. You said you're looking for cogent points, I say you are a liar and have not read anything on this thread because its full of cogent points FOR war and a whole boatload of appeals to emotion and senseless peacenik nonsense that refuses to deal with the reality we face on the other side.

Its NICE to not go to war, its NICE to not have to kil people, but life and the world ain't nice and if 9/11 didn't teach you that then nothing will.


YOU have not provided cogent points WHY we shouldn't go to war other than ignorant nonsense about getting rid of Sadaam. We need to take apart the entire aparatus if we're to liberate anyone. He has spent decades cementing his power and he is not so insane as to not know how to hold on to power. The man has his people in a grip of terror and fear and you think getting rid of him will do it? He has sons...terrible fucking children that rape, torture and mutilate people...he has freinds that rape , torture and mutilate people and most importnantly of all he has an ARMY that portects him and his cronies.

Clearly we'd need special forces to train and arm the populace. Maybe that would just lead to another Shah of Iran case, so we'd need to build the nation. We'd need to do that in the event of a war, too.

Been tried before, He gassed them all

So? Wouldn't it be better if he gassed them before he gassed us (cold but true for us)? And then, wouldn't that be an ideal case for war? We'd have no problems getting support then. Or would we? I dunno. Maybe itWhat do you mean name a group, if there's nobody willing to fight then gee I guess we'll just have to do it ourselves. At least you said something cogent. I've been begging for that. No-one else has been making me think especially hard.


This assumes of course that you think instead of spouting the ridiculous nonsense you obviously picked up in school and have not put any of your own thought into..

Exuse me Captian Brillant but where can we find the fokes overthrow him with?

From the population, just like anywhere else we've meddled in.

Oh yes, there are a HORDE of people that can take the reigns of power, have you not been paying attention???? He has SLAUGHTERED entire villages that even hinted at rebelling against him. He has bled any sort of leadership dry over the decades. Not to mention he has this litle thing called AN ARMY. CHRIST is there ANY thought going on behind these pat answers you hand out?.

He excutes people on a whim and his secruity police as worse than anything the KGB ever did, His Loyal Guard can kill the poplas in under a week thanks to the fact they are station in and around vital public buildings(Like the Water supply.... this is not Vietnam, this is not Germany, Its the middle of the @%@% desert If the water is poisioned or otherwise removed people will die and quickly)

Oops. You forgot to depose him first.

Oops you forgot you brain today..


why the 10-year timeline anyway? Who gives a shit? I think if we're honest, we'd see something worth fighting for. I don't think we need any pretenses at all. He's not democratic, and he's got a lot of oil. Just depose him. We did that with Iran, and we didn't need to fight them at ALL (until they killed Mossadegh, then we used Saddam as our attack dog).

I think if you support this war so much, you should go enlist. I don't know why you have such a hard on for taking it to these people, who are totally innocent as far as we are concerned. You're saying "We have to fight them bec the Royal Guard could poison the water" and "if we fight them, the Royal Guard could poison the water" So what if Saddam has WMD and lies abt it? Then kill him and his family. If you think we can't do that, you're blind and crazy.

You ass, I'll let Bean handle that one. Here's a hint...HE IS IN THE MILITARY..


Better yet, let's not concern ourselves with them at all.[/quote]

Oh yes, let's stick our heads in the sand and let more planes crash into buildings and kill thousands of innocents going to work. Let's hope he doesn't hand some terrorists a chemical or nuclear device and set one off in your hometown.

It's PRECISELY that attitude that got us into this mess and you just don't get it..

[HemlockGrey]

Incidentally, let me butt in to say: Fuck the UN. The only reason their opinion matters is that the world gets pissed off if America wipes it's ass without consulting the UN.

What does the UN do? Nothing! What does it accomplish? Nothing! It is only effective when backed up with American military might, when powered by the American industrial machine and the American economic juggernaut. LIBYA is the head of the fucking HUMAN RIGHT'S comission!

When America acts in it's interests it shouldn't need to listen to eight months of bitching from France and Germany. I'm pissed at those bloody bastards in South Korea, too- the students, all enlightened, who want the US off their land. Well, FUCKING SURPRISE! Turns out North Korea is a nuclear monster! Where's your Sunshine now?

I mean, there was an interview on NPR a while back about the Bond movie, and a South Korean student said, and I quote, 'When James Bond attacked the villian, I felt like I was being attacked myself.'

Well, if you're not a FUCKING MEGLOMANIAC, a product of GENETIC MUTATION and in possession of an electric claw, a huge-ass Space Umbrella of Doom and driven by an overwhelming ambition to CONQUER THE FUCKING WORLD, I really don't think you've got anything to worry about, genius!

[Necro99]

Show him the picture of one of the children killed by Saddam's chemical weapons. Ask him how he would feel if that was his child.

To that i should put up the (disguisting) images of children killed from uranium poisoning from DU shells.

It's so ugly they look like aliens.

[Mr Bean]

To that i should put up the (disguisting) images of children killed from uranium poisoning from DU shells.

It's so ugly they look like aliens.

Fuck that, show them the children hit by DU shells

[HemlockGrey]

Wow, Necro tricked Bean into attacking his own side...

[Mr Bean]

Now onto Captian Brillant here
Stravo handled most of it quite well but I'll add anything in as nessary

ZERO miles per hour. We don't need all-out warfare.

Why?
Because we won't win?(No chance of that happening)
Because we might have casualties?(Horrors! Nevermind last time we went to war aginst a enemy who could not figh back we had less servicemen die to enemy fire than we had to car crashes that same year)
Because of what France Says?
Come on whats your reason for not going to War as Stravo asked

So? Wouldn't it be better if he gassed them before he gassed us (cold but true for us)? And then, wouldn't that be an ideal case for war? We'd have no problems getting support then. Or would we? I dunno. Maybe itWhat do you mean name a group, if there's nobody willing to fight then gee I guess we'll just have to do it ourselves.

Your missing the point, We tried Insurgants before, He simply gassed anyone he suspected of Being an Insurgant(And kill quite a few Civys in the proccess) and we lost our only native insugrancy force

I've been begging for that. No-one else has been making me think especially hard.

By your statments, thats pretty obvious

From the population, just like anywhere else we've meddled in.

And we identify these people how?
Magic!
We contact them how?
Magic!
We succesfuly sneak them out of the Contry to be trained how?
Magic!
We succesfuly sneak them back in along with the battalion of equipment they will need?
Magic!
Without letting anything leak to Saddam?
Magic!

Need I remind you how terribly the US and everyone else has done with Insurgants? We have never succesfuly pulled it off even when we had a willing popluation and lots of free reign(Vietnam)

I think if you support this war so much, you should go enlist.[/qutoe]
As a matter of fact I did that
A few years ago. Your talking to a proud memeber of the United States Navy

[Mr Bean]

Wow, Necro tricked Bean into attacking his own side...

No it a comparsion
How many kids do you have pictures of who are sick from DU posioning?
About Zero
How many do you have of Kids hit by DU's
About Zero

[Malecoda]

Oh no, I've been insulted. It made me change my mind! Good lord. What is your deal? so Mr. Bean is in the military, so what? Does it make him any more of an expert on foreign policy? The same as me, I'll bet. All that means is that he's being indoctrinated against our potential allies. Soon he'll be viewing the world from anti-Arab-colored goggles. Wow, he's an expert, let's all fall in line and see if he goes off and gets killed. Stravo, you're so eager for war. I point out to you that the Iraqis are innocents to us, and you call it an appeal to emotion. Oh, duh, of course it is. There's no reason to go killing them. Then you spout some shit abt how many casualties we might have. So what? I'm not contesting our ability to kick ass, you brain-dead prima donna. I point out that you have been silent on my points, and you fly off the handle. Wow, that's convinicing. Oh, look, you've been making compelling arguments all along! And all somehow without addressing my points! So don't snipe at me just bec you are so incapapable of understanding--you can't even begin to understand. This war would be stupid. And when I say "duh, war is bad" you say some shit like "that's what they teach you in school". Even if it was, at least I'd be taking something away from my classes, instead of sitting there like a slug like you seem to be doing. Dumbass, I'm in a welding class. This war would plant us in the middle of Asia in something we don't need to be embroiled in. So what if Saddam has WMD? If he uses them, nuke him. Ooh, that was difficult. You act like we're some kind of savior and that the way to save Iraq is to bomb it into the Stone Age, and you act like we're in some kind of fairy tale land where Bush isn't a puppet and has no ties to Big Oil. You then wildly claim that not gg to war would lead to more airplanes into office towers. Holy shit, you're a robot.

The only time you said anything intelligent was when you noticed that we have a terrible track record with insurgencies. But I already dealt with that. That's what the phrase "nation building" was used for. Like I said, you bellicose little shit, go join the fucking army if you want a war so damn bad, like it's something you jack off to. You want to be more involved in Asia then we already are? THEN GO SIGN UP. DO something about it, instead of taking me to task bec I can see that this war is stupid and I don't want to be at war anymore. For fuck's sake, we've never had a year of peace, give it a goddamn rest already!

[Malecoda]

Now onto Captian Brillant here
Stravo handled most of it quite well but I'll add anything in as nessary

So having a tantrum is "handling it well?" If anything, it made me even more against the war than I was before.

ZERO miles per hour. We don't need all-out warfare.

Why?[/quote]

Yeah, why do we need all out war?[
Because we won't win?(No chance of that happening)
Because we might have casualties?(Horrors! Nevermind last time we went to war aginst a enemy who could not figh back we had less servicemen die to enemy fire than we had to car crashes that same year)
Because of what France Says?
Come on whats your reason for not going to War as Stravo asked[/quote]

Oh damn, I mixed him and you up with that "casualties" thing--but that's OK, bec you seem to be the same thing. I just gave you a reason--how many fucking times do I have to tell you, they're not our enemies? Geez. Better go kill a commie for mommy, or something.

So? Wouldn't it be better if he gassed them before he gassed us (cold but true for us)? And then, wouldn't that be an ideal case for war? We'd have no problems getting support then. Or would we? I dunno. Maybe itWhat do you mean name a group, if there's nobody willing to fight then gee I guess we'll just have to do it ourselves.

Your missing the point, We tried Insurgants before, He simply gassed anyone he suspected of Being an Insurgant(And kill quite a few Civys in the proccess) and we lost our only native insugrancy force[/quote]

So it might not work. Better not try it then. Better just use our own cannon fodder first. Are you ready to be cannon fodder? You pbly wouldn't die, but you might. They're not even remotely comparable to the VC. One thing I get sick of is hearing Iraqi threats. Another thing I'm sick of is you parroting "Oh, we can't lose" "We'll kick their ass" when that ISN'T IN CONTENTION. My POINT, which I will soon have to round off so you can see it, is that we SHOULDN'T. I've given you a reason not to fight. You return with "we won't lose". Man oh man. Did you get some kind of high school waiver to get in the military?

I've been begging for that. No-one else has been making me think especially hard.

By your statments, thats pretty obvious

[/quote] good one, har har. Way to repeat me. I've given you a reason not to fight. I've given you a reason not to fight.

What's your reason to fight? That it's legal by treaty? That we won't lose? That we failed in Central America? What are the reasons to fight, and I'm looking for "he's a real viable threat" and why that might be so. He's not now, and he won't ever be. We can nullify him without the war, and I'm positively at a loss at why this is so hard for you to get.

Before this gets too crazy, kudos on your sacrifice in being in the military. You may not accept it since I'm just a peacenik, but there it is.

From the population, just like anywhere else we've meddled in.

And we identify these people how?
Magic!

We may not find anyone. They're not the ARVN or Sandinistas, after all. We do have that lame insurgency record. My point is that, we are not strangers to covert oops and manipulating governments. We're the kings of it.

We contact them how?
Magic!

If they're fighting, we can find them. Like I said, we may not find anyone. But you act like it's impossible to find guerrilas, even if they exist.

We succesfuly sneak them out of the Contry to be trained how?
Magic!

Is your MOS "Magician"? We can do anything we want.

Need I remind you how terribly the US and everyone else has done with Insurgants? We have never succesfuly pulled it off even when we had a willing popluation and lots of free reign(Vietnam)

Yeah, sorry I mixed you two up. I read his and yours before I answered, but this should answer both. Like I said, I'm ont real concerned. Anywho, that was the part I thought Stravo had said and I agree. But hey, if there're fighters there, we should try to use them, just like in Central America and Afghanistan. You, ah, DO remember Afghanistan, don't you? Don't act like we've never tried it, or that you've never heard of Nicaragua.

I think if you support this war so much, you should go enlist.[/qutoe]
As a matter of fact I did that
A few years ago. Your talking to a proud memeber of the United States Navy

Oh, GOD, LOL! Well, in strictest confidence *koff koff* I don't care all that much. I just want to see why people would support this war, and I don't see a whole lot for it. I'm simply saying, they're not actively our enemies. I agree we need to look both ways when crossing the ocean, as isolationalism really bit us on the ass pretty recently. I'm old enough to have kids, and I don't want them to waste their lives on any silly ventures like this one. It's not critical that we do this thing. My own thoughts are that I'm glad we can, but we shouldn't necessarily do it. Iraq is pretty hurtin', and this isn't helping. OTOH, we need to clean house, and bad, over there, and get them on the right road. I just know that there are real people out there who haven't hurt anyone, who don't want to die on the tip of a US bomb. So, as I said, it's wonderfully gray. I am not against you, but Stravo's being kind of silly. He says he's in favor of the war, but he can't give a real reason why--in the "Rumsfeld" thread, he hit eject pretty much right away. I just want honesty. We're not gg over there to save anyone. WE're doing it to get the oil and position ourselves. I think the whole region is like the tantrum-throwing child of the world, and I'd be OK if we silenced that area altogether. They don't need anymore attention.

My post seems contradictory,but I'm OK with that bec it's a gray area and I can be swayed if you provide thoughtful answers, and now I'm late for class, kia orana!

[HemlockGrey]

Um, why are we going to Iraq for oil, right after Bush announced the gradual implentation of a switch from oil to alternate energy?

[Mr Bean]

Oh no, I've been insulted. It made me change my mind! Good lord. What is your deal? so Mr. Bean is in the military, so what? Does it make him any more of an expert on foreign policy? The same as me, I'll bet.

I dunno, Have you ever been to Iraq? If not, then we are not the same here.

I'll bet. All that means is that he's being indoctrinated against our potential allies. Soon he'll be viewing the world from anti-Arab-colored goggles. Wow, he's an expert, let's all fall in line and see if he goes off and gets killed.

Let me say this for all the Freedom Loving people protecting your Ass STFU
We are not "indoctratned" first because it runs counter-productive to Military thinking, a Army that is whiped up into Religious or otherwise Frenzy will fight better, but they won't think, And they will die because of that.
Second because thats not the American way, And I'd love you to stand up and claim that the Armed Forces are indoctrated in a Marine Bar sometime

Then you spout some shit abt how many casualties we might have. So what? I'm not contesting our ability to kick ass, you brain-dead prima donna. I point out that you have been silent on my points, and you fly off the handle. Wow, that's convinicing. Oh, look, you've been making compelling arguments all along! And all somehow without addressing my points! So don't snipe at me just bec you are so incapapable of understanding--you can't even begin to understand. This war would be stupid. And when I say "duh, war is bad" you say some shit like "that's what they teach you in school". Even if it was, at least I'd be taking something away from my classes, instead of sitting there like a slug like you seem to be doing. Dumbass, I'm in a welding class. This war would plant us in the middle of Asia in something we don't need to be embroiled in. So what if Saddam has WMD? If he uses them, nuke him. Ooh, that was difficult. You act like we're some kind of savior and that the way to save Iraq is to bomb it into the Stone Age, and you act like we're in some kind of fairy tale land where Bush isn't a puppet and has no ties to Big Oil. You then wildly claim that not gg to war would lead to more airplanes into office towers. Holy shit, you're a robot.

I think this speaks quite accuralty for itself

The only time you said anything intelligent was when you noticed that we have a terrible track record with insurgencies. But I already dealt with that. That's what the phrase "nation building" was used for. Like I said, you bellicose little shit, go join the fucking army if you want a war so damn bad, like it's something you jack off to. You want to be more involved in Asia then we already are? THEN GO SIGN UP. DO something about it, instead of taking me to task bec I can see that this war is stupid and I don't want to be at war anymore. For fuck's sake, we've never had a year of peace, give it a goddamn rest already!

This does as well

[Mr Bean]

So having a tantrum is "handling it well?" If anything, it made me even more against the war than I was before.

By the fact you never responeded to any of the points he made and just ranted he never did, I'd say yes

Oh damn, I mixed him and you up with that "casualties" thing--but that's OK, bec you seem to be the same thing. I just gave you a reason--how many fucking times do I have to tell you, they're not our enemies? Geez. Better go kill a commie for mommy, or something.

1. They Harbor Terriorists
2. They Fund and Help Train Said Terriorits
3. They devopled WMD despite the fact the Treaty that ended the War said if he did, The deal was off and we would crush him
4. They have used WMD aginst thier own people

And by they I refer to the people in charge, The avarage Iraq Citizin is probably a decent fellow, but he's not the guy behind the desk with his finger on the button to use the old SU example, They don't have Nukes yet sure, But they are doing their best to correct that sitatoin even today

So it might not work. Better not try it then. Better just use our own cannon fodder first. Are you ready to be cannon fodder? You pbly wouldn't die, but you might. They're not even remotely comparable to the VC. One thing I get sick of is hearing Iraqi threats.

We don't have "Cannon Fodder" as you use the Term in Iraq, THERE ARE NO GROUPS LEFT THAT ARE AGINST SADDAM! Even mild disagreement results in a Death sentance!
I'm not just telling you it might not work, I'm telling you that the Care-Bears are more likley to come save the day then we be able to gather a sizesable force in Iraq to assit the overthrow.

Another thing I'm sick of is you parroting "Oh, we can't lose" "We'll kick their ass" when that ISN'T IN CONTENTION. My POINT, which I will soon have to round off so you can see it, is that we SHOULDN'T. I've given you a reason not to fight. You return with "we won't lose"/

Funny for a statment only about a lack of Insurgants you draw alot out of it that most people don't see
I gave you the reasons to go to war already, You came up with one
An appel to emotion, "They are not our Enemies" They support Saddam in one war or another, Just as the German Citizinery labored away Factories to help provided for the Nazi War Machine, so do the Iraq people help provided for Saddam's, All those who took a stand our dead, all we have left is those to frightended to say otherwise and the Loyalists

What's your reason to fight? That it's legal by treaty? That we won't lose? That we failed in Central America? What are the reasons to fight, and I'm looking for "he's a real viable threat" and why that might be so. He's not now, and he won't ever be. We can nullify him without the war, and I'm positively at a loss at why this is so hard for you to get.

When he's a real viable threat we won't be able to deal with him Captian Brillant, Just like we can't deal with NK aside from Diplo-pressure
Of course NK is about three steps from starving to death so its a viable option, in Iraq we don't have that Luixerey and with Saddam doing his damndist to devolpe Nukes, once he has them it will be to late
But thats what you wan't is it not? No War, no fighting, I give you half a dozen reasons, any two of which is enough to go to war and you give me your reason?
A burden of proof Fallicy

My point is that, we are not strangers to covert oops and manipulating governments. We're the kings of it.

Name one Country where we ever succeded?
Meanwhile with Russia I can name quite a few(SA, Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam)

If they're fighting, we can find them. Like I said, we may not find anyone. But you act like it's impossible to find guerrilas, even if they exist.

If they're fighting they are dead

Is your MOS "Magician"? We can do anything we want.

Might want to use terms which can mean half a dozen things, Which MOS defintion are you refering to?

You, ah, DO remember Afghanistan, don't you? Don't act like we've never tried it, or that you've never heard of Nicaragua.

Afghanistan was mostly luck, It took massive bribes and quite a few Arm pullings for "The Northen Allance" not to sqabble over Afganistan after we won there

My post seems contradictory,but I'm OK with that bec it's a gray area and I can be swayed if you provide thoughtful answers, and now I'm late for class, kia orana!

Your post seems contradictory because your logic is bullshit not "because its a grey area"

[Stravo]

Now onto Captian Brillant here
Stravo handled most of it quite well but I'll add anything in as nessary

So having a tantrum is "handling it well?" If anything, it made me even more against the war than I was before.

No Bitch, THIS is a tantrum:


Oh no, I've been insulted. It made me change my mind! Good lord. What is your deal? so Mr. Bean is in the military, so what? Does it make him any more of an expert on foreign policy? The same as me, I'll bet. All that means is that he's being indoctrinated against our potential allies. Soon he'll be viewing the world from anti-Arab-colored goggles. Wow, he's an expert, let's all fall in line and see if he goes off and gets killed. Stravo, you're so eager for war. I point out to you that the Iraqis are innocents to us, and you call it an appeal to emotion. Oh, duh, of course it is. There's no reason to go killing them. Then you spout some shit abt how many casualties we might have. So what? I'm not contesting our ability to kick ass, you brain-dead prima donna. I point out that you have been silent on my points, and you fly off the handle. Wow, that's convinicing. Oh, look, you've been making compelling arguments all along! And all somehow without addressing my points! So don't snipe at me just bec you are so incapapable of understanding--you can't even begin to understand. This war would be stupid. And when I say "duh, war is bad" you say some shit like "that's what they teach you in school". Even if it was, at least I'd be taking something away from my classes, instead of sitting there like a slug like you seem to be doing. Dumbass, I'm in a welding class. This war would plant us in the middle of Asia in something we don't need to be embroiled in. So what if Saddam has WMD? If he uses them, nuke him. Ooh, that was difficult. You act like we're some kind of savior and that the way to save Iraq is to bomb it into the Stone Age, and you act like we're in some kind of fairy tale land where Bush isn't a puppet and has no ties to Big Oil. You then wildly claim that not gg to war would lead to more airplanes into office towers. Holy shit, you're a robot.

The only time you said anything intelligent was when you noticed that we have a terrible track record with insurgencies. But I already dealt with that. That's what the phrase "nation building" was used for. Like I said, you bellicose little shit, go join the fucking army if you want a war so damn bad, like it's something you jack off to. You want to be more involved in Asia then we already are? THEN GO SIGN UP. DO something about it, instead of taking me to task bec I can see that this war is stupid and I don't want to be at war anymore. For fuck's sake, we've never had a year of peace, give it a goddamn rest already!

ZERO miles per hour. We don't need all-out warfare.

Why?

Yeah, why do we need all out war?[
Because we won't win?(No chance of that happening)
Because we might have casualties?(Horrors! Nevermind last time we went to war aginst a enemy who could not figh back we had less servicemen die to enemy fire than we had to car crashes that same year)
Because of what France Says?
Come on whats your reason for not going to War as Stravo asked[/quote]

Oh damn, I mixed him and you up with that "casualties" thing--but that's OK, bec you seem to be the same thing. I just gave you a reason--how many fucking times do I have to tell you, they're not our enemies? Geez. Better go kill a commie for mommy, or something.


Obviously you HAVE NO POINT. You have no thoughts on this matter, you have not formulated your own points, you spout FUCKING GIBBERISH that means nothing. If you ever think up of ANY point on your own that you put your own thoughts into that you are willing to stand up and defend instead of crying like a little bitch and saying "whatever" please let me know...on second thought I could care less.:


[/quote]
Your missing the point, We tried Insurgants before, He simply gassed anyone he suspected of Being an Insurgant(And kill quite a few Civys in the proccess) and we lost our only native insugrancy force[/quote]

So it might not work. Better not try it then. Better just use our own cannon fodder first. Are you ready to be cannon fodder? You pbly wouldn't die, but you might. They're not even remotely comparable to the VC. One thing I get sick of is hearing Iraqi threats. Another thing I'm sick of is you parroting "Oh, we can't lose" "We'll kick their ass" when that ISN'T IN CONTENTION. My POINT, which I will soon have to round off so you can see it, is that we SHOULDN'T. Your point is we shouldn't....OOokkkkaayyyy. And that and the shit I just took means what? You can oppose something but that don't mean jack shit unless you can stand up like a man and say why. You can't because YOU HAVE NO POINT. You're entire tantrum/rant/pussifest is nothing more than you saying we shouldn't go to war...when asked why...you HAVE NO FUCKING POINT. : I've given you a reason not to fight. You return with "we won't lose". Man oh man. Did you get some kind of high school waiver to get in the military? YOU HAVE NO ANSWER, NO POINT.

I've been begging for that. No-one else has been making me think especially hard.

By your statments, thats pretty obvious

[/quote] good one, har har. Way to repeat me. I've given you a reason not to fight. I've given you a reason not to fight. NO YOU HAVEN'T. Go back and read the trail of shit that you call posts and you wil see that your point is : We shouldn't fight because we shouldn't. Jesus Christ man, you can't thinkof a SINGLE valid argument??? Aren't you fucking ashamed of seeing yourself bitchslapped like this and know that you have no response but to moan.....:

What's your reason to fight? That it's legal by treaty? That we won't lose? That we failed in Central America? What are the reasons to fight, and I'm looking for "he's a real viable threat" and why that might be so. He's not now, and he won't ever be. SO says the expert. I'm sure Osamma was never a threat. You know what in a way you are a really insulting considering I lost friends in the WTC and here you are saying that he'll never be a threat. It insults me that people still think that there are no threats PARTICULARLY from a man that has consistently tried to harm us. You little fucking turd, stand up and speak up for yourself or SHUT THE FUCK UP : We can nullify him without the war, and I'm positively at a loss at why this is so hard for you to get. I'm positively without a loss that you are this fucking retarded.:

Before this gets too crazy, kudos on your sacrifice in being in the military. You may not accept it since I'm just a peacenik, but there it is.
THIS QUOTE IS VERY IMPORTANT REMEMBER IT AS YOU SCROLL DOWN:



[

I think if you support this war so much, you should go enlist.[/qutoe]
As a matter of fact I did that
A few years ago. Your talking to a proud memeber of the United States Navy

Oh, GOD, LOL! Well, in strictest confidence *koff koff* I don't care all that much. YOU ARE A FUCKING SNIVELING LITTLE SHITSTAIN. TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOU WROTE MERE PARAGRAPHS BEFORE......:


Before this gets too crazy, kudos on your sacrifice in being in the military. You may not accept it since I'm just a peacenik, but there it is.

NO, you're just a sanctamonious little turd that lies within his own post. Have you no shame you asshat?????:

I just want to see why people would support this war, and I don't see a whole lot for it. I'm simply saying, they're not actively our enemies. I'm so fucking stupid to think that someone that has fired on our aircraft and pilots for 10 years is NOT an active enemy. : I agree we need to look both ways when crossing the ocean, as isolationalism really bit us on the ass pretty recently. I'm old enough to have kids, and I don't want them to waste their lives on any silly ventures like this one. I prefer you NOT have children so you don't pollute us with any more stupidity. :

It's not critical that we do this thing. My own thoughts are that I'm glad we can, but we shouldn't necessarily do it. Iraq is pretty hurtin', and this isn't helping. OTOH, we need to clean house, and bad, over there, and get them on the right road. I just know that there are real people out there who haven't hurt anyone, who don't want to die on the tip of a US bomb. So, as I said, it's wonderfully gray. I am not against you, but Stravo's being kind of silly. He says he's in favor of the war, but he can't give a real reason why--in the "Rumsfeld" thread, he hit eject pretty much right away. You little bitch, you REALLY wanted to get bitchslapped again????? Seriously CAN YOU READ???? I mean that because for EVERY FUCKING POST I HAVE WRITTEN I have laid out the reasons why...its not my fault you're too fucking stupid to understand them....call me out one more time bitch....:


I just want honesty. We're not gg over there to save anyone. WE're doing it to get the oil and position ourselves. I think the whole region is like the tantrum-throwing child of the world, NO, I do believe that would be you. ![/quote][/quote]

[Master of Ossus]

I have a friend who's family is ardently anti-war. His arguments hinge upon two things:

1) Appeal to emotion(What would YOU feel like if YOU were there?)

2) No blood for oil!

I pointed out Iraq's numerous violations, Saddam's maliciousness, the problems with the 'blood for oil' theory, the fact that a state of war still exists, the warheads found in Iraq, the uncooperativeness of Iraq with the inspectors, etc. etc. but he keeps going back to the same damn appeal to emotion. How do I defeat it?

Point out that French interests in keeping us out of the war ARE for oil, and that 11% of French gasoline is illicitly refined from illegal Iraqi shipments of petrol.

Also, point out that if I were the Iraqis, I would WANT the Americans to come in to protect me from Hussein. That sentiment is shared by practically the whole of the Middle Class, which in spite of Hussein's propoganda attempts, is currently stockpiling weapons to protect themselves from IRAQI soldiers during the upcoming war.

Otherwise, just call him an idiot. Say that to appeal to emotion is a terrible argument when we are working with an objective scenario. Ask him how HE would feel if he was an Israeli who was at risk because Saddam Hussein is financing terrorists and constructing armies and WoMD to fire at Israel.

[Master of Ossus]

You want to be more involved in Asia then we already are? THEN GO SIGN UP. DO something about it, instead of taking me to task bec I can see that this war is stupid and I don't want to be at war anymore. For fuck's sake, we've never had a year of peace, give it a goddamn rest already!

From what little I can gather of your posts, you marginalize people in the military because you feel that they are being "indoctrinated against our potential allies," and then turn around and insist that everyone who believes in a war against Iraq should join the military. You are being hypocritical. NTM that you ignore disenting opinions and lie claiming that "we've never had a year of peace."

[Master of Ossus]

Show him the picture of one of the children killed by Saddam's chemical weapons. Ask him how he would feel if that was his child.

To that i should put up the (disguisting) images of children killed from uranium poisoning from DU shells.

It's so ugly they look like aliens.

Do it. Then put up pictures of the THOUSANDS of Iraqi civilians who have been tortured, killed, or starved by Saddam Hussein and his regime.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think they add up at all. He's shooting at our planes because we wanted him to shoot at our planes, or we wouldn't have been flying over his airspace after making threatening speeches. We may not be as good as our friends the Israelis at goading someone into action and making it seem like they're the bad guy, but I think that's exactly what happened in this case. Every reason to go to war was deliberately invented or created by the Ministry of Peace (Bush, Rumsfeld, et al)

How did Israel "goad" the Iraqis into opening fire on Israel using Scud missiles during the Persian Gulf War? Israel was a neutral country during the conflict. Iraq had possessed those same weapons for years. It was the Iraqis trying to goad the Israelis into joining the war, and Israel refrained from doing so. To simultaneously believe that Iraq was "goaded" into conflicts in Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia (which it DID invade prior to the opening of the ground war), and then to claim that the US has been "goading" Iraq into a conflict is to ignore history. Iraq was not goaded into invading Kuwait. They were not goaded into invading Saudi Arabia. They were not goaded into firing on Israel or firing on American and British warplanes that were enforcing UN mandates. You want us to ignore ALL of those incidents AND the restraint shown by Israel during the Persian Gulf War and then claim that the US is goading the Iraqis into conflict?

[Malecoda]

WEll, y'all could be right abt the war thing. BUT, you don't need to go crazy. You sound like you're sitting in the deep end of an empty pool. I asked for reasons, you returned with Bush rhetoric. Yes, we've been blockading them for a decade and yes, they violate the embargo. Yes, they shoot at us and violate no-fly. Yes, they have WMD, or at least the makin's. Yes, Saddam is evil and we're perfectly poised to push him out.

BUT, you don't address the "they aren't our enemies" thing. To you, there is no middle ground. To you, you can't consider that war is bad, even though this one may be necessary. It's foreign to you to have mixed feelings, it seems. I say we don't need to go to war, and clearly we don't. Saddam can't strike us. He can't dominate the world. He doesn't have the population whipped into a frenzy against us. I JUST told you not to compare them to Germany, bec Germany actually won something for one thing, and for another, Iraq isn't doing the world conquest thing.

Your attack on my logic is stupid. I say we don't need to kill them, and you say we do, even though they're not in any position of power over us. Saddam isn't either. I agree with you on the insurgent thing, that wasn't a great idea. You just brazenly state that you're in FAVOR of war. What kind of maniac is in favor of war?

Here's a hint to you, too--I was in the navy, and I've been to the Gulf. I questioned right and wrong every day, and did my best to be kicked out. Now I wouldn't question it--if I could, I'd join up just for the paycheck and hell, blowing stuff up IS kinda fun. But I'm old enough to have children, and when you balance sending your kid to die for some dummy in the White House when the most your enemy's done to you is "accidentally" missile one of your ships, the dummy in the White House comes up short. This is what I mean by you not understanding. Don't be so naive.

Bean, MOS means Military Occupational Specialty. thought you'd know that *zing* I was merely protesting your repetition of "Magic!" as if we'd never found contras before. Know what I mean? I'll concede, bec really my only reason for not fighting is the civilian suffering--but it's better to save the country, if we do, than to let them go on their present course. I never saw that argument from you, just your blustering and now, your insults. I could just see steam rising from your ears as you wrote that when I read it. I've been playing devil's advocate for too long--I feel the war is necessary, but I don't want to see it anymore. Take it as a concession if you will, but you arguing against a protest of a loss of innocent life is somewhat evil. I've seen the navy and I've seen people living with Saddam, and they've done nothing to us.

[Malecoda]

You want to be more involved in Asia then we already are? THEN GO SIGN UP. DO something about it, instead of taking me to task bec I can see that this war is stupid and I don't want to be at war anymore. For fuck's sake, we've never had a year of peace, give it a goddamn rest already!

From what little I can gather of your posts, you marginalize people in the military because you feel that they are being "indoctrinated against our potential allies," and then turn around and insist that everyone who believes in a war against Iraq should join the military. You are being hypocritical. NTM that you ignore disenting opinions and lie claiming that "we've never had a year of peace."

OK, maybe we've had A YEAR. It's hyperbole. I don't marginalize the military, fool. I was in it. I didn't like it, but I was in it, and I respect it. It's true, they do indoctrinate people against enemies. They have to--after all, they're enemies. (If I typed "allies", I meant "enemies") Indoctrination is just instruction. I was indoctrinated, and good thing too, bec we were gg to war when I joined. Tell me that you're not gg to indoctrinate people if you want them to fight, particularly if one of those potential enemies just aimed an airliner at one of your ships then bitched when you shot it down. I am VERY against hippies saying "Oh you brainwash them into killing machines" but I'm not gg to sit there and pretend that indoctrination in the military doesn't exist. It's not brainwashing I'm claiming. And it's true, if you feel so goddamn strongly that you're in FAVOR of a war, then 1. It's YOU who's been brainwashed, and 2. You SHOULD sign up to fight. If you're able-bodied and crow to the world that we should fight, then show some brass and get in there.

[Master of Ossus]

OK, maybe we've had A YEAR. It's hyperbole. I don't marginalize the military, fool. I was in it. I didn't like it, but I was in it, and I respect it. It's true, they do indoctrinate people against enemies. They have to--after all, they're enemies. (If I typed "allies", I meant "enemies") Indoctrination is just instruction. I was indoctrinated, and good thing too, bec we were gg to war when I joined. Tell me that you're not gg to indoctrinate people if you want them to fight, particularly if one of those potential enemies just aimed an airliner at one of your ships then bitched when you shot it down. I am VERY against hippies saying "Oh you brainwash them into killing machines" but I'm not gg to sit there and pretend that indoctrination in the military doesn't exist. It's not brainwashing I'm claiming. And it's true, if you feel so goddamn strongly that you're in FAVOR of a war, then 1. It's YOU who's been brainwashed, and 2. You SHOULD sign up to fight. If you're able-bodied and crow to the world that we should fight, then show some brass and get in there.

Again, from what little I can gather from your posts you are saying that in order to be in favor of a war with Iraq, we MUST have been brainwashed and could not have formed our own opinions. Let me tell you something. I used to LIVE in the Middle East. I lived in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait (briefly), and Israel. I had an apartment in Beirut, and speak fluent Arabic and enough Yiddish to get by. I don't think I COULD have been brainwashed while I was covering stories there by EITHER side. I've interviewed mothers whose sons have just jumped onto buses and blown themselves up. I've interviewed the widows of people on both sides killed in the war. I've talked with terrorists and IDF agents, the Saudi Royal family (the high-ranking ones, not the little princes) and the Iraqi soldiers during the Gulf War. There is NO WAY I could have been brainwashed by either side into believing one side or the other because my knowledge is SECONDARY (ie. It's straight from the people who MAKE the news). You are creating a false causality by saying that any third person observer would believe as you do, but that anyone who is brainwashed is in favor of a war. The REASONS we give may be similar to those of Bush, but the conclusions are our own. Your inability to recognize this is the reason why you are being mauled in this debate.

[Master of Ossus]

WEll, y'all could be right abt the war thing. BUT, you don't need to go crazy. You sound like you're sitting in the deep end of an empty pool. I asked for reasons, you returned with Bush rhetoric. Yes, we've been blockading them for a decade and yes, they violate the embargo. Yes, they shoot at us and violate no-fly. Yes, they have WMD, or at least the makin's. Yes, Saddam is evil and we're perfectly poised to push him out.

BUT, you don't address the "they aren't our enemies" thing. To you, there is no middle ground. To you, you can't consider that war is bad, even though this one may be necessary. It's foreign to you to have mixed feelings, it seems. I say we don't need to go to war, and clearly we don't. Saddam can't strike us. He can't dominate the world. He doesn't have the population whipped into a frenzy against us. I JUST told you not to compare them to Germany, bec Germany actually won something for one thing, and for another, Iraq isn't doing the world conquest thing.

Listen, dumbass, we're not saying that the Iraqi people are our enemies. They are not. We're saying that their GOVERNMENT IS our enemy already. People die in war, and it's a terrible thing when they do, but sometimes war is NECESSARY for protecting people and nations from external threats. In this case, the Iraqi government is our enemy. They harbor terrorists. They fund suicide bombers. They build weapons of mass destruction and fire missiles at neutral nations. They INVADE peaceful nations for the purposes of gaining oil. The Iraqi people are not doing these things, but their government is, and sometimes the members of that government must be held accountable for their actions.

Iraq IS into the "world conquest" thing. They took over Kuwait. They invaded invade Saudi Arabia. They threatened to invade Israel. Maybe you ignored what happened in the Persian Gulf between 1989 and 1992, but all of the rest of us tried to pay attention, and your lies and distortions of the truth do not alter it.

Your attack on my logic is stupid. I say we don't need to kill them, and you say we do, even though they're not in any position of power over us. Saddam isn't either. I agree with you on the insurgent thing, that wasn't a great idea. You just brazenly state that you're in FAVOR of war. What kind of maniac is in favor of war?

Here's a hint to you, too--I was in the navy, and I've been to the Gulf. I questioned right and wrong every day, and did my best to be kicked out. Now I wouldn't question it--if I could, I'd join up just for the paycheck and hell, blowing stuff up IS kinda fun. But I'm old enough to have children, and when you balance sending your kid to die for some dummy in the White House when the most your enemy's done to you is "accidentally" missile one of your ships, the dummy in the White House comes up short. This is what I mean by you not understanding. Don't be so naive.

Would you send that kid to fight Hitler? Sometimes you have to decide that there are things worth fighting for, and I think that the Iraqi people are worth fighting for. You are the naive one if you feel that the Iraqi regime has not been harming its own citizens, and those of other nations, for some time.

Bean, MOS means Military Occupational Specialty. thought you'd know that *zing* I was merely protesting your repetition of "Magic!" as if we'd never found contras before. Know what I mean? I'll concede, bec really my only reason for not fighting is the civilian suffering--but it's better to save the country, if we do, than to let them go on their present course. I never saw that argument from you, just your blustering and now, your insults. I could just see steam rising from your ears as you wrote that when I read it. I've been playing devil's advocate for too long--I feel the war is necessary, but I don't want to see it anymore. Take it as a concession if you will, but you arguing against a protest of a loss of innocent life is somewhat evil. I've seen the navy and I've seen people living with Saddam, and they've done nothing to us.

The PEOPLE have not. Saddam HAS. Your inability to recognize that a war can be conducted against a COUNTRY as opposed to its PEOPLE is laughable. The Iraqi government does not represent the Iraqi people, which is yet another in its long list of reasons why it needs to be destroyed.

[Knife]

Its no use MoO. The man is an ideologe. His only point is "what about the people" when we have covered that he goes to his next point of "what about the people". And when all else fails "war is bad, why do we need war."

[Vympel]

[*]The "he's been shooting at our planes" argument is not all that powerful either; those planes are overflying his country, he may not have the legal right to shoot at them because of the treaty he signed at gunpoint, but it's not as heinous as some make it sound. To hear some talk, he's been lobbing Scuds into Iowa.

One point on this- he has every 'legal' right to do it- because the treaty he signed said nothing about no fly zones at all, nor are they sanctioned by the UN.

[Mr Bean]

One point on this- he has every 'legal' right to do it- because the treaty he signed said nothing about no fly zones at all, nor are they sanctioned by the UN.

He also has the legel right to use WMD aginst the United States as he never signed any agreements say he would not use them aginst the US
Nevermind either is a hositle act which can justify war