Outside the Camp

[Kanastrous]

Hmm. I keep hearing about people who are 'lapsed Catholics.' I wonder if there's such a thing as a prolapsed Catholic...

[Morilore]

Before this thread dies I'd just like to point out that the website from the OP is about a bunch of Calvinists, who do not believe in human free will. We can rag on LionEl Penis, but what Calvinists believe is actually way worse because they embrace the logic that God knew ahead of time who was going to Hell, and created them for the express purpose of sending them to Hell, and actually praise him for that. No irony, no doublethink, no "hah you didn't really think this through did you." As one of the Phelpses once put it, "God doesn't hate them because they are fags (sic); they are fags (sic) because God hates them."

[Kanastrous]

That's interesting. I didn't realize that basically Phelps et all hate these people because they believe that those people were put there to be hated.

[Simon_Jester]

Samuel L. Fury did it in a way that would be cool, not gangsta, because gangsta is not cool. Gangsta is, like, lame, feeble and stupid.

A distinct point. Never mind.

[Akhlut]

First, sorry for the delay. Work and a kid make it hard to be as involved as I otherwise could/would be.

Firstly, Original Sin is, essentially, a philosophical model for all of humanity's proneness to evil action, regardless of one's religion. Secondly, and more importantly, the RCC does recognize the ability of non-Christians to be moral, virtuous people (hence many Doctors of the Church using Aristotle, a decidedly non-Christian person, to argue for the philosophical reality of YHWH and Jesus) as a result of the Holy Spirit imbuing all humans with a virtuous nature.

You are of course aware of the fact that the RCC has not always been as moderate in their position as it is now? Also, I said inclined, not always. I'm a former catholic too, you know. And lets not forget that "holy spirit granted man virtue" is a blatant contradiction of the doctrine of original sin (though I doubt we disagree here). And no, I've been through all that confirmation stuff: it only grants the Seven Virtues to those who have been baptized and confirmed. So you DO in fact have to be a catholic to get the benefits according to catholicism, even though its not the sole determiner of whether or not you are virtuous or sinful.[/quote]

Ah, I forgot/wasn't told about the Seven Virtues only being granted to the confirmed.

At anyrate, I wasn't so much disagreeing as nitpicking about subtleties. So, I don't think there's much we actually diagree on, with regards to this.

So, while the RCC does deserve its fair share of blame, one cannot paint such a simplistic, black and white picture of it, I think.

I think you misunderstand. My point was simply to highlight the motivation of missionaries and the disgusting belief it stems from, not to put the blame solely on their feet for the destruction of native cultures.[/quote]

Fair enough. There are plenty of missionaries who were complete asshats destroying culture more or less for the sake of it than trying to "merely" eradicate a religion in order to save the poor, benighted heathens. Like the asshat priest who destroyed all but a handful of Mayan books.

One has to remember that the RCC is not a monolithic entity either, and that there have been dozens of different cliques within it, all fighting for supremacy and all having different ideas on how to evangelize and how to operate as a religion. For instance, in spite of the actions of lay Catholics during colonization of the Caribbean, it was the priest and friar Bartolomeo de las Casas who argued against enslavement and mutilation of the non-Christian natives and argued that doing so was a grave sin against God. Similarly, one saw the spread of Liberation Theology throughout the globe by Catholics who were trying to make the world a lot more egalitarian than what most other people in the globe were trying to do.

We are talking about an organization that says the Pope's word is God, you know. The Church may have its internal factions, but that's largely unimportant in the scale of things.

Another nitpick is that only ex cathedra statements are taken as infallible, while everything else he says is "merely" more authoritative, but not necessarily correct. However, the Jesuits and other ordained orders do carry significant clout within the RCC and they can vary dramatically on political and spiritual matters from the established 'party line'.

But, in the end, I suppose this mostly just was an effort to show some of the subtleties involved.

[General Mung Beans]

Before this thread dies I'd just like to point out that the website from the OP is about a bunch of Calvinists, who do not believe in human free will. We can rag on LionEl Penis, but what Calvinists believe is actually way worse because they embrace the logic that God knew ahead of time who was going to Hell, and created them for the express purpose of sending them to Hell, and actually praise him for that. No irony, no doublethink, no "hah you didn't really think this through did you." As one of the Phelpses once put it, "God doesn't hate them because they are fags (sic); they are fags (sic) because God hates them."

They don't consider themselves to be Calvinist actually because they think Calvinists are too tolerant of Christians who believe in Free Will.

[Channel72]

Christianity is practically unique in that, thanks to the way the religion has mutated over time, standard Christian theology holds that good is NOT rewarded and evil is NOT punished- not in human terms, anyway. The only way to be rewarded- to even avoid horrible punishment- is to believe in the big judgmental beard in the sky. Believe and any evil you commit is irrelevant; do not believe and any good you do is irrelevant.

I don't think you can say that good/evil behavior is irrelevant to Christianity, or that Christianity is unique in demanding belief as a prerequisite for salvation. Islam is similar, in that unbelievers in Mohammed's revelation are destined for hellfire, especially if the unbeliever is an apostate.

...and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. - Surah 2.217

Of course, Islam also makes it clear that good works are important as well (e.g. giving to charity, etc.) But both Islam and Christianity attempt a difficult balance between emphasis on works and emphasis on belief. It's impossible to read the Synoptic Gospels, for example, and not conclude that Jesus was very interested in good behavior, especially regarding humane treatment of the poor or downtrodden. However, John's Gospel and some of Paul's letters emphasize belief to the extent that non-believers are excluded from salvation (e.g. John 3:18).

This is one of those long-running Biblical contradictions that will never be easy to harmonize. Evangelical theologians have come up with the idea that only faith is required, and that good works are simply a natural symptom of faith. A better interpretation is probably that both belief and good works are required for salvation.

If anything, Christianity is unique as a major religion because it has no clear guidelines on what is necessary for salvation, other than belief. We can assume that good behavior is also required, since Synoptic Jesus seems to be very interested in that, and some of his parables suggest that bad behavior is punishable by damnation, (e.g. the rich man and Lazarus), but centuries of theological wrangling proves that agreement is difficult. Islam has a more clear emphasis on works, e.g. giving to the poor is clearly mandatory for salvation (Surah 9:60, 17:26, etc.)

[Channel72]

As an addendum, the modern evangelical stance on the belief/works problem is wrapped up in their reading of John 3, which emphasizes being "born again" through the Holy Spirit. Basically, the idea is that God likes good (holy) behavior, but that the human condition (inherited sin) makes it impossible for any particular individual to live up to God's standard. Therefore, each individual needs supernatural assistance to become "good enough" for God. This supernatural assistance is obtained through the belief that Jesus is God and that he died for their sins. Once the believer accepts these things, the Holy Spirit imbues a new "spirit" into the believer, which changes their behavior so that they now act rightly. Thus, in the Evangelical churches, belief is emphasized over works, because only with belief is it even possible to be good enough for God.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hmm. I keep hearing about people who are 'lapsed Catholics.' I wonder if there's such a thing as a prolapsed Catholic...

Sorry for the one-line post... but this is just too good to pass up.

Have you seen a catholic children's choir lately?