God as an Imperfect Creator

[Firefox]

Now I ask you, in reference to a thread like this and others like it, when can a pot demand, ask, or whater of the Potter when the Potter is the one shapping the clay?

I've encountered this argument before, and it's the shittiest copout I've read. You're trying to shrug off the argument that the Christian god is a sadistic, narcissistic, megalomaniacal evil, by saying that "oh, he's the artist, why should his sculpture have any say in how it's made?" Bullshit. Since when was clay a sentient organism, capable of emotions, and physical pain?

You've got to do fucking better than "don't question your creator because he created you!"

[General Zod]

Actually Lucifer was the problem. He was so full of pride that he felt that the should be equal to or greater then God, forgetting that he was created by God. A creation is not equal or greater then its Creator.

yet notice this actually doesn't answer how evil came in. lucifer was supposed to have been one of god's most perfect creations. he shouldn't have been able to screw up any more than perfect man.

Job maybe a good answer as to why God allows evil. Why Adam and Eve were allowed to be tempted. Satan accused God that the only reason that Job served and loved Him was because He blessed Job. So God allowed Satan to test him and Job passed and God richly rewarded him, because Job knew who his Creator is.

right. he loved job and so in order to get job to prove how much he loved him he stood by and let satan subject him to all kinds of torture, kill off his entire family and drove him into poverty just to get job to consistently admit that he loved god. on a fucking dare. some love.

Now I ask you, in reference to a thread like this and others like it, when can a pot demand, ask, or whater of the Potter when the Potter is the one shapping the clay?

pots don't have sentience or the ability to make decisions for themselves dimwit.

[Darth Wong]

Actually Lucifer was the problem. He was so full of pride that he felt that the should be equal to or greater then God, forgetting that he was created by God.

So he suffered from pride and poor judgement? Sounds like a rather imperfect creature. And who made him that way? Oops.

A creation is not equal or greater then its Creator.

Bullshit. An ordinary car is vastly more fast and powerful than its human creators. That is two characteristics in which a mundane industrial product exceeds those of its creators. So why do you feel that it's impossible for a creator to make something which exceeds him in any way?

Job maybe a good answer as to why God allows evil. Why Adam and Eve were allowed to be tempted. Satan accused God that the only reason that Job served and loved Him was because He blessed Job. So God allowed Satan to test him and Job passed and God richly rewarded him, because Job knew who his Creator is.

God does not "allow" evil according to Biblical dogma. He created everything, therefore he created evil. And it existed before the "fall", otherwise the idea of a tree of knowledge of good and evil would be meaningless.

Now I ask you, in reference to a thread like this and others like it, when can a pot demand, ask, or whater of the Potter when the Potter is the one shapping the clay?

If the pot somehow had thoughts and feelings, it could legitimately demand that the potter treat him accordingly. The potter would agree, unless he's an asshole.

[Queeb Salaron]

First, Ryan, let me thank you for responding to the tangential post without addressing ANY of the points mentioned above. How very adult of you.

Now let's have a bit of fun, shall we?

Actually Lucifer was the problem. He was so full of pride that he felt that the should be equal to or greater then God, forgetting that he was created by God. A creation is not equal or greater then its Creator.

Funny that, considering he has more sway over God's creation than God does.

Pride is a characteristic of an unfallen Angel as well as those who have fallen. Lucifer was full of pride before his fall from Heaven, so the story goes, which means that even those Angels who hold God's favor are capable of pride. This means that even the best angels are capable of sin, meaning even the MOST PERFECT of God's creations is not perfect.

Job maybe a good answer as to why God allows evil. Why Adam and Eve were allowed to be tempted. Satan accused God that the only reason that Job served and loved Him was because He blessed Job. So God allowed Satan to test him and Job passed and God richly rewarded him, because Job knew who his Creator is.

Talk about sadistic. If this is how God rewards faith, if gambling with the lives of his faithful is perfection, if even God himself can be tricked into inducing suffering on even one of his creations, then he is not perfect. You've proven my case for me. Concession accepted.

Now I ask you, in reference to a thread like this and others like it, when can a pot demand, ask, or whater of the Potter when the Potter is the one shapping the clay?

I don't know what shapping is, but I assume it has something to do with how the pot is formed.

And when can the Pot demand the intentions of the Potter? When the Potter starts fucking around with his life (Job), discriminatingly punishing men for acting in their nature (Leviticus), killing innocent children (Exodus), and forever damning man for imperfections that God himself made inherent to mankind (Genesis). Then the Pot has every damned right to question the motives of the Potter.

Now for the love of Henry Rawlins, answer my fucking questions.

[Petrosjko]

Ah, fun with Biblical myth. Every answer leads to new questions.

Yup, Darth Ryan, you really should answer Queeb's questions. As for your reply, everyone pretty much already gave my answers.

But I've got another one for you, on the issue of Job.

Why in the hell would God care about any accusations from Satan, and why would he care about proving anything to him?

God knows how this is going to go. In the end, it's into the Lake of Fire with Satan. He's beyond salvage, according to the whole Christian myth.

So why make one of his creations suffer to prove something to Satan? God, being omniscient and all, would know full well that Job would stick to his guns. So why not just give Job his pat on the head for being a good guy, tell Satan to shove it, and move on with all his pressing work of being a big deity-figure?

The continual testing of faith and scourging of the unfaithful of the Old Testament certainly doesn't speak to the concept of a God of love or a God that is particularly secure in his existance. It certainly comes across more as casual sadism.

And as for this:

Now I ask you, in reference to a thread like this and others like it, when can a pot demand, ask, or whater of the Potter when the Potter is the one shapping the clay?

Because I have free will, unlike a pot, free will that according to you is a God-given gift. But by your worldview, God gave us this free will essentially as a test, the successful completion of which involves rejecting said free will and giving ourselves over to him.

Stating that we are little more than objects of utility and art to be shaped by our Creator into forms which please Him certainly doesn't indicate any sort of respect for us from this God of yours.