What's your opinion on Kevlar?

[haas mark]

Yeah, that's the problem. Guns are too easy to acquire. The ability to use a gun effectively, is not.

Stop parroting the same crap thats been levied against guns ever since
they first appeared on the battlefield and gave the lowly peasant with
a week's training the capability of killing a Knight with years of training
easily=...

Except they can't. A hundred peasents with guns can kill ten knights, but one peasent vs. one knight and the knight will win most of the time.

Only if the knight has greater experience, which is not always the case.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Nope, never needed it. And niether do most people.

Jesus, you live in La-La-La land. I live a few miles from
a very NASTY shopping center. anyone who knows
the area knows NOT to be there after dark.....

I live in a normal neighbourhood.

BTW, care to give to crime stats for the area, including population, etc.

[MKSheppard]

Provide cites for the number of civilians saved by BPV.

Over 850 people have been saved by Second Chance Body
armor since they started making vests.

http://www.secondchance.com/news.asp

[haas mark]

If guns give us any indication, Kevlar vests would be a hundred times more likely to be stolen than to save your life. Then they are helping save the lives of criminals.

There he goes again, claiming that everything is FOR the
criminals. Jesus strowbridge, stop pulling shit out of your
ass and provide CITES for BPV thefts.-

Provide cites for the number of civilians saved by BPV.

He already has, sorta. Burden of proof is yours. You have claimed that BPVs are going to be stolen more and more, yet fail to show evidence. MKS has shown at least one example of someone being saved by a BPV, and you have yet to show even one example of one being stolen.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Same is true today. One poorly trained loser with a gun won't be able to take out an expericenced criminal who has real combat experience.

Right. That means all perps drill themselves on their guns like fucking navy SEALs. All cops will miss because their training is inadequate, no matter what they do.

Didn't I tell you to go shoot yourself just now? Or do you have to read THAT a few hundred times before it sinks in?

[C.S.Strowbridge]

See, I look at what's the mostly likely cause of death, and figure how to limit that. I don't look for the least likely cause of death and worry about that. It's not worth my effort.

So, by your reasoning, If I had to work in a convience store, I would
be justified to own a Bullet Proof Vest to limit my cause of death by
Gunshot Wounds in a failed holdup?

You're more likely to die of a heart-attack from eating convenience store food than from a gun shot.

[haas mark]

Nope, never needed it. And niether do most people.

Jesus, you live in La-La-La land. I live a few miles from
a very NASTY shopping center. anyone who knows
the area knows NOT to be there after dark.....

I live in a normal neighbourhood.

BTW, care to give to crime stats for the area, including population, etc.

You live in a neighborhood where crime isn't all that common. Some of us live in suburbs. Suburbs are normal. Crime happens a lot more in suburbs than urban areas.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

You're more likely to die of a heart-attack from eating convenience store food than from a gun shot.

Guess which one is easier to prevent? Guess which one requires a major lifestyle change and which one requires a Kevlar vest?

[haas mark]

See, I look at what's the mostly likely cause of death, and figure how to limit that. I don't look for the least likely cause of death and worry about that. It's not worth my effort.

So, by your reasoning, If I had to work in a convience store, I would
be justified to own a Bullet Proof Vest to limit my cause of death by
Gunshot Wounds in a failed holdup?

You're more likely to die of a heart-attack from eating convenience store food than from a gun shot.

This means nothing. Obnesity is a disease. Gun shots aren't.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah, that's the problem. Guns are too easy to acquire. The ability to use a gun effectively, is not.

Stop parroting the same crap thats been levied against guns ever since
they first appeared on the battlefield and gave the lowly peasant with
a week's training the capability of killing a Knight with years of training
easily=...

Except they can't. A hundred peasents with guns can kill ten knights, but one peasent vs. one knight and the knight will win most of the time.

Same is true today. One poorly trained loser with a gun won't be able to take out an expericenced criminal who has real combat experience.

Not many criminals with "Real combat experience out there" and those that have been in gunfighters are those most likely to run away rather then bother fighting it out. Why? Because it's simply not worth it. They can find another person to rob easier then they can find a new kidney. Thats what experiance teaches.

Your average gun owner is far more likely to be familiar with there weapon, which likely cost them quite a bit as well, then some punk who bought a .22 for 135 dollars, has never been to a range in his life and will dump it as soon as they can.

[Sea Skimmer]

See, I look at what's the mostly likely cause of death, and figure how to limit that. I don't look for the least likely cause of death and worry about that. It's not worth my effort.

So, by your reasoning, If I had to work in a convience store, I would
be justified to own a Bullet Proof Vest to limit my cause of death by
Gunshot Wounds in a failed holdup?

You're more likely to die of a heart-attack from eating convenience store food than from a gun shot.

Whats your fucking point? WHY SOUND'T HE BE ABLE TO BUY A VEST IF HE WANTS? WHY, STATE SOMETHING SPECIFIC. YOU’RE THE ONE AGAINST VEST BEING LEGAL, BACK IT UP.

ANSWER THIS QUESTION OR SHUT THE FUCK UP

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Nope, never needed it. And niether do most people.

That's what most people say until they're confronted. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes.

300,000 guns stolen every year.

Buying guns doesn't make you safer, it arms the criminals.

Besides, modern Kevlar vests, especially the Second Chance
Vests are no more uncomfortable than a tee shirt, yet
still stop .357 rounds

So fucking what? If you're never shot it doesn't matter. And that's the fucking point. How many times have you been shot? And you went to jail charged with a violent felony.

If you're never shot it doesn't matter. But there will *always* be the possibility that you might be.[/quote]

0.00367%, verses the chance that BPV will be stolen.

Just to give you some more number ....

300,000 guns are stolen anually.
In the year 2000 7.7 million gun applications were made.
So 3.896% of guns bought are stolen, anually.

So, if the same pattern holds true to BPV, and I see no logical reason why it wouldn't, each BPV would be 1000 times more likely to be stolen then to have the oppurtunity to save your life.

Are you starting to understand?

[MKSheppard]

Buying guns doesn't make you safer, it arms the criminals.

Then where the fuck do all the stories in the NRA's Armed Citizen Column
Come from?

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Ah, so Strowbridge is one of the Elite Fitness Morons.

No, I exercise half an hour a day cause obsesity is like a billion times more likely to kill you than guns.

See, I look at what's the mostly likely cause of death, and figure how to limit that. I don't look for the least likely cause of death and worry about that. It's not worth my effort.

More people care about gun deaths than obesity.

And that would make them stupid.

Besides, more people that shoot the guns are likely to not be obese, as they would not be able to run away, or do you not watch the news? Or are you just too worried about getting off your treadmill or bench to look? I get more news, it seems, than you do, and I hardly get out!

Murder rates drop 20% in the 90's.
Murder coverage increased 600% during the same time.

Don't believe everything you see on the news.

[Sea Skimmer]

Nope, never needed it. And niether do most people.

That's what most people say until they're confronted. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes.

300,000 guns stolen every year.

Buying guns doesn't make you safer, it arms the criminals.

Besides, modern Kevlar vests, especially the Second Chance
Vests are no more uncomfortable than a tee shirt, yet
still stop .357 rounds

So fucking what? If you're never shot it doesn't matter. And that's the fucking point. How many times have you been shot? And you went to jail charged with a violent felony.

If you're never shot it doesn't matter. But there will *always* be the possibility that you might be.

0.00367%, verses the chance that BPV will be stolen.

Just to give you some more number ....

300,000 guns are stolen anually.
In the year 2000 7.7 million gun applications were made.
So 3.896% of guns bought are stolen, anually.

So, if the same pattern holds true to BPV, and I see no logical reason why it wouldn't, each BPV would be 1000 times more likely to be stolen then to have the oppurtunity to save your life.

Are you starting to understand?[/quote]

So zero guns are stolen from stores or the Police or the manufactures? I've got a big list of tv stations and newspapers you need to contact.

Has the fact that a Vest is massively larger factored into your little delusion yet?

[haas mark]

Nope, never needed it. And niether do most people.

That's what most people say until they're confronted. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes.

300,000 guns stolen every year.

Buying guns doesn't make you safer, it arms the criminals.

Says you. But we're not talking about guns, were talking about BPVs. Better to have one of those (safe) than get shot in the heart without one (sorry).

Besides, modern Kevlar vests, especially the Second Chance
Vests are no more uncomfortable than a tee shirt, yet
still stop .357 rounds

So fucking what? If you're never shot it doesn't matter. And that's the fucking point. How many times have you been shot? And you went to jail charged with a violent felony.

If you're never shot it doesn't matter. But there will *always* be the possibility that you might be.

0.00367%, verses the chance that BPV will be stolen. [/quote]

Which is...? Doesn't matter. Split seconds do.

Just to give you some more number ....

300,000 guns are stolen anually.
In the year 2000 7.7 million gun applications were made.
So 3.896% of guns bought are stolen, anually.

And how many of the deaths by guns are by stolen guns? I assure you, the death rate by stolen guns is in the 80-90% range.

So, if the same pattern holds true to BPV, and I see no logical reason why it wouldn't, each BPV would be 1000 times more likely to be stolen then to have the oppurtunity to save your life.

Cite evidence.

Are you starting to understand?

As ESB said, trying to understand bullshit hurts my head.

[haas mark]

More people care about gun deaths than obesity.

And that would make them stupid.

Why, because they care more about violence in the street rather than starving?

Besides, more people that shoot the guns are likely to not be obese, as they would not be able to run away, or do you not watch the news? Or are you just too worried about getting off your treadmill or bench to look? I get more news, it seems, than you do, and I hardly get out!

Murder rates drop 20% in the 90's.
Murder coverage increased 600% during the same time.

Don't believe everything you see on the news.

I could say the same to you. Many murders are not even reported. YOu have yet to live in the suburbs where murder is a way of life.

[MKSheppard]

As ESB said, trying to understand bullshit hurts my head.

Ditto.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

So fucking what? If you're never shot it doesn't matter. And that's the fucking point. How many times have you been shot? And you went to jail charged with a violent felony.

By that reasoning, why should I wear a seatbelt? I've never been in an accident, and I surely don't intent to get in one, so why bother? Oh, wait, because I'm in a situation where it could save my life!

Automobilie accidents are the leading cause of death amoung people ages 5 - 24, and in the top ten in ALL age ranges. It's a very real possibility.

No-one is saying kevlar should become a defacto fashion statement, just that those who may need them should be able to obtain them! Is that so difficult to grasp?

Wearing or not wearing a seatbelt is not going to effect criminals in any way. But, if BPV follow the same pattern as guns, they will be 1000 times more likely to end up in the hands of criminals than have the opputunity to save your life.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

They are trained in fire arm usage, safety, reaction time, friend or foe identification, threat analysis, etc. Yearly checks are just for accuracy, eyesight, reaction time, etc.

This is true. But it has nothing real to do with the situation.

Yes it does. They are trained in how to use a gun in a hostile situation. You average citiczen is not.

[haas mark]

So fucking what? If you're never shot it doesn't matter. And that's the fucking point. How many times have you been shot? And you went to jail charged with a violent felony.

By that reasoning, why should I wear a seatbelt? I've never been in an accident, and I surely don't intent to get in one, so why bother? Oh, wait, because I'm in a situation where it could save my life!

Automobilie accidents are the leading cause of death amoung people ages 5 - 24, and in the top ten in ALL age ranges. It's a very real possibility.

So is the possibility of getting shot with a gun. Why don't you step outside your comfort zone? GO to the poorer parts of wherever the hell you live and tell me, how often do you hear a police siren? How often do you see opressed people?

No-one is saying kevlar should become a defacto fashion statement, just that those who may need them should be able to obtain them! Is that so difficult to grasp?

Wearing or not wearing a seatbelt is not going to effect criminals in any way. But, if BPV follow the same pattern as guns, they will be 1000 times more likely to end up in the hands of criminals than have the opputunity to save your life.

Cite evidence that Kevlar vests will follow the same trend.

[MKSheppard]

Wearing or not wearing a seatbelt is not going to effect criminals in any way. But, if BPV follow the same pattern as guns, they will be 1000 times more likely to end up in the hands of criminals than have the opputunity to save your life.

Seatbelts save the lives of car thieves involved in 100 MPH colissions with
the police, so we shoudl do away with them!

Great logic, Strowey!

[The Yosemite Bear]

Does that mean you can't have Mountain Bikes in NY, & MD?

As far as Vest's Go When I worked for Seven Eleven, we asked Southland if we could get permission for the night shift to wear them at our own expense (Permission denyed)

Oh, Southland has a current pollicy that my method of defense will result in Firing, and being prosecuted for Shoplifting/Burglery.

I gave the Cops free Coffee, and Expired food. (After a certain number of hours you have to throw out those burgers, etc.)

This resulted in increased police presence, and the only Druggie that came into my store, was quickly arrested. How many crooks are stupid enough to try to rob a place with a Saturday Night Special, while there are 6 cops in the building, with their B&W's parked right in front.

[haas mark]

They are trained in fire arm usage, safety, reaction time, friend or foe identification, threat analysis, etc. Yearly checks are just for accuracy, eyesight, reaction time, etc.

This is true. But it has nothing real to do with the situation.

Yes it does. They are trained in how to use a gun in a hostile situation. You average citiczen is not.

So? When are the polioce your average citizen? Try again.

[Sea Skimmer]

His entire delusion requires that theft rates for totally different products remain the same, and that all product stolen in a list of a total where stole indirectly from the consumer, not from any of the middle men, police or manufactures despite the fact that this has happened many times.

Strowbridge has based his entire argument off of one number he's miss using and a big leap in logic. He has not presented key evidence concerning the actual theft rate of vests, resulting in a totally unsupported claim. As a result I'm declaring victory in this.

I suggest everyone else stops as well. There's no point.