Does anyone deserve hell?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-10-04 01:29pm

Verily, it's alot like an abusive father going "Why do you make me hit you?"

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:35pm

1.) I don't know what you mean by "verifiable harm." Please explain.

2.) It's not God's fault that He's the ultimate source of good in the universe. He just is. Is God supposed to take you in despite the fact that you've twisted your being to be completely contrary to His nature? Or should he change the defintion of "good" to be more in line with your nature?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 01:40pm

Sean Gray wrote:1.) I don't know what you mean by "verifiable harm." Please explain.

Don't be an idiot. It's a straightforward term using mundane English words. How can you get simpler than two unambiguous words?

2.) It's not God's fault that He's the ultimate source of good in the universe. He just is. Is God supposed to take you in despite the fact that you've twisted your being to be completely contrary to His nature? Or should he change the defintion of "good" to be more in line with your nature?

Actually, God is the ultimate source of evil in the universe, since he tortures countless people for eternity: an act which makes all of the world's most heinous dictators look like Boy Scouts by comparison.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-10-04 01:46pm

Sean Gray wrote:OK, that's fine. But if you don't believe in God why are you bothering to discuss the mechanics of hell?

The same reason we discuss Star Trek vs. Star Wars. Sometimes it's fun to talk about fantasy.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-04 01:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:I seem to recall someone saying that very early Jewish religious writings described everyone (saints and sinners alike) going to a place called "Sheol", and they got the idea of a dichotomy between heaven and hell from interaction with some other culture (perhaps Persian). Does anyone know more about this?

If I'm not mistaken, it happened during the Babylonian exile. The various Babylonian and other Fertile Crescent religions gave Judaism the angels because the Babylonians had some really freaky things in their mythos. I think there was also interaction with the Zoroastrians which gave rise to the whole Good/Evil dichotomy, due to the Zoroastrians belief in Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Light and good and Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, the Lord of Darkness and evil. I might be a little confused on the specifics due to being a few semesters removed from my Judaism, Christianity, and Islam class, but I think that's what happened, more or less.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:52pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Sean Gray wrote:Then refer to my original post. Restated simply, it is: "By living a life of sin, you have turned your soul into something so corrupted that you couldn't stand to be in God's presence. There is absolutely no choice but for you to be distanced from God.
How exactly does this process work? Also, you didn't answer the question of what could possibly be a big enough crime for you to be ejected to "Hell" for all eternity as to claim to be just.

How does the process work? I think I might be better off explaining quantum mechanics. I know very precious little about the soul, much less can I explain the exact process by which one becomes corrupted. I guess that every time you do evil, your soul turns a little darker, and every time you repent or do well, it fixes itself a bit. If by time your soul is separated from your body you have a "too dark" soul, then it's off to hell for you.

All this, of course, is conjecture. I no more know how my soul works than a monkey knows how his neurons firing and muscles contracting allows him to grab a delicious banana. But he knows that the banana is delicious nonetheless.

Besides, if this was true, people would be ejected from reality the moment their "Sin Counter" turned over to a high enough number to warrant "Hell". After all, certainly a man who opens fire in a shopping mall of his own volition and sound mind and guns down a bunch of teenagers is going to warrant "Hell" strictly on that action, but he could potentially live a long life in "God's Presence" before dying and actually going to "Hell". Obviously, a person can exist just fine in God's presence even with massive amounts of "Sin" on their soul.

I see my wording earlier was a little vague in regards to what it means to live in God's presence. I'm sorry. Allow me to define two diferent types:

1.) On the one hand, there's living in this physical world, surrounded by God, but never really in "direct contact" with Him.

2.) On the other, there's the world after you die, in which you have no physical form, and you can finally meet God "face to face" as it were. This is the eternal unity with God that the corrupted soul couldn't handle.

Further, this speaks nothing about rehabilitation. Punishment for all eternity? Eternity is a long time to fix what ever problems you had in a satisfactory manner.

Is it? Think of the fetus analogy I gave earlier. Like a child in the womb, this earthly life is the time when our souls develop and change into what they will be for eternity. Could an albino receive pigment by standing out in the sun all day? No more could your soul become godly enough through eternal suffering.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 01:54pm

OK now your evasiveness is starting to piss me off. ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS, ASSHOLE. Don't give us reasons why you won't or can't provide an answer unless you're willing to concede the point that your dogma makes no sense.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 01:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:Don't be an idiot. It's a straightforward term using mundane English words. How can you get simpler than two unambiguous words?

Alright. I'll go with what I thought you meant by verifiable harm.

Distancing yourself from God is verifiable harm because God is good (by Christian definition) and distancing yourself from good is bad. Thus you are harming yourself.

Actually, God is the ultimate source of evil in the universe, since he tortures countless people for eternity: an act which makes all of the world's most heinous dictators look like Boy Scouts by comparison.

If you say so. But I think I'll take God's word over yours.

You're still stuck on the idea of God torturing people, as if he's the one turning the screws. We're the ones hurting ourselves.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2005-10-04 02:01pm

There are some people in the world who I think deserve eternal punishment because there are truly irredeemable people out there. Mass murders, Serial Killers, Pedophiles, and Religious Fundamentalists. (who warp Religion to their personal gain of power and wealth) They all need a taste of their own medicine. Call me cruel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 02:02pm

Sean Gray wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Don't be an idiot. It's a straightforward term using mundane English words. How can you get simpler than two unambiguous words?
Alright. I'll go with what I thought you meant by verifiable harm.

Distancing yourself from God is verifiable harm because God is good (by Christian definition) and distancing yourself from good is bad. Thus you are harming yourself.

(sigh) it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what the word "verifiable" means. You seem to think "verifiable" means "because I say so".

Actually, God is the ultimate source of evil in the universe, since he tortures countless people for eternity: an act which makes all of the world's most heinous dictators look like Boy Scouts by comparison.
If you say so. But I think I'll take God's word over yours.

So you disagree that torture is wrong?

You're still stuck on the idea of God torturing people, as if he's the one turning the screws. We're the ones hurting ourselves.

Bullshit. He created Hell according to your dogma. He didn't have to, nor does he have to tolerate its continued existence if he doesn't want to. He could have said that sinners will be forced to live in condominiums with only basic cable.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 02:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:OK now your evasiveness is starting to piss me off. ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS, ASSHOLE. Don't give us reasons why you won't or can't provide an answer unless you're willing to concede the point that your dogma makes no sense.

Christianity isn't science and I never said it was. Do you want scientific answers for something that can't be detected or measured through conventional means? You're not gonna get it, and I will openly admit that.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 02:05pm

By the way, God and I were talking over coffee today, and he confided in me that he lied to you and you're totally wrong. Now it's time to look up what "verifiable" means, right?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 02:06pm

Sean Gray wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:OK now your evasiveness is starting to piss me off. ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS, ASSHOLE. Don't give us reasons why you won't or can't provide an answer unless you're willing to concede the point that your dogma makes no sense.
Christianity isn't science and I never said it was. Do you want scientific answers for something that can't be detected or measured through conventional means? You're not gonna get it, and I will openly admit that.

Yet again, you lie. It doesn't have to be science-based; we're just asking you to make sense rather than saying that A is true because of A.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 02:14pm

Darth Wong wrote: (sigh) it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what the word "verifiable" means. You seem to think "verifiable" means "because I say so".

Are you looking for proof that turning away from God is bad for you? A study that shows that atheists have an 80% less chance of getting into heaven than Christians? Good luck.

Bullshit. He created Hell according to your dogma. He didn't have to, nor does he have to tolerate its continued existence if he doesn't want to. He could have said that sinners will be forced to live in condominiums with only basic cable.

Actually, according to my dogma, we created hell by turning away from Him.

For all I know, hell is a set of condominiums with basic cable. Maybe it even has a bitchin' pool. Inground. But it would still suck because it's removed from God's love. Not because God wants it to be, but because the people in it can't stand to be in his presence.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-10-04 02:17pm

I believe Sean Grey is reffering to the modern Catholic interpretation of hell, which is nothing like the one in the original post. Simply put, that interpretation is that hell is an eternal afterlife where those who are sinners go. It's not inherently tormentful, but it's infinitely tormentful in comparison to heaven because being in God's prescence is so infinitely wonderful. Kinda like room temperature water would feel very cold if you plunged a hand that's been heated into it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 02:18pm

Sean Gray wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:(sigh) it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what the word "verifiable" means. You seem to think "verifiable" means "because I say so".
Are you looking for proof that turning away from God is bad for you? A study that shows that atheists have an 80% less chance of getting into heaven than Christians? Good luck.

Exactly. You can demonstrate no verifiable harm whatsoever in the examples you gave of sin. Concession accepted; you define sin with no reference whatsoever to reality.

Bullshit. He created Hell according to your dogma. He didn't have to, nor does he have to tolerate its continued existence if he doesn't want to. He could have said that sinners will be forced to live in condominiums with only basic cable.
Actually, according to my dogma, we created hell by turning away from Him.

Really? What methods did we use to create Hell? Did we use shovels? Oh wait, you're just being a dishonest little shit now.

For all I know, hell is a set of condominiums with basic cable. Maybe it even has a bitchin' pool. Inground. But it would still suck because it's removed from God's love. Not because God wants it to be, but because the people in it can't stand to be in his presence.

And now you're just changing the subject. Read the fucking thread subject, you trolling dipshit. It's about the justice or injustice of eternal torture. If Hell is in fact a comfortable, safe, and pleasurable place to be, it has nothing to do with the question posed by this thread.

Besides, God told me himself that you're totally wrong and he conned you.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 02:19pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Sean Gray wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:OK now your evasiveness is starting to piss me off. ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS, ASSHOLE. Don't give us reasons why you won't or can't provide an answer unless you're willing to concede the point that your dogma makes no sense.
Christianity isn't science and I never said it was. Do you want scientific answers for something that can't be detected or measured through conventional means? You're not gonna get it, and I will openly admit that.
Yet again, you lie. It doesn't have to be science-based; we're just asking you to make sense rather than saying that A is true because of A.

Alright, that makes a little more sense. Point out the gaps in my logic and I will be happy to make an attempt to fill them.

I'm not asking you to point them out to be an ass, I'm doing it because I don't know where they are. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made them.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2005-10-04 02:29pm

Sean Gray wrote:For all I know, hell is a set of condominiums with basic cable. Maybe it even has a bitchin' pool. Inground. But it would still suck because it's removed from God's love. Not because God wants it to be, but because the people in it can't stand to be in his presence.

If the people in Hell can't stand God, then it wouldn't suck for them, now would it? And if Hell doesn't suck to be in, how can it be Hell?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-04 02:35pm

Sean Gray wrote:Alright, that makes a little more sense. Point out the gaps in my logic and I will be happy to make an attempt to fill them.

You have no logic. You're saying that it's righteous for God to torture people forever because God is righteous, which is the exact fallacy of circularity that I already pointed out to you.

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 02:38pm

Darth Wong wrote: Exactly. You can demonstrate no verifiable harm whatsoever in the examples you gave of sin. Concession accepted; you define sin with no reference whatsoever to reality.

The examples were made in reference to the question posed by the poster who asked what would happen to a righteous atheist after he died. I could have responded with "What does he care, he's an atheist?!" Obviously, when the poster asked that question, we were assuming for the moment that the Christian God exists.

Really? What methods did we use to create Hell? Did we use shovels? Oh wait, you're just being a dishonest little shit now.

From the essays of yours that I've read, I get the feeling that you're a fairly intelligent guy. I take it you've probably read all or parts of the Bible, or are at the very least familiar with its main stories. Remember Adam and Eve? Taken as either a factual historical account (highly unlikely) or an allegorical myth, it outlines how man became subject to death, disease, sin, and hell by rejecting God and following Satan.

And now you're just changing the subject. Read the fucking thread subject, you trolling dipshit. It's about the justice or injustice of eternal torture. If Hell is in fact a comfortable, safe, and pleasurable place to be, it has nothing to do with the question posed by this thread.

Is eternal torture just? Maybe not by human standards, but you as an atheist do not have to worry about that. You can only be tortured for as long as you still draw breath. The only people eternal torture concerns are those who consider themselves immortal beings, i.e. Christians. If you don't believe that you have an eternal soul, the question "Is eternal torture good or bad" is moot. If all there is is this earthly life, eternal torture doesn't exist! You're in the clear.

This is why I looked at the question from a Chrsitian perspective, and this is why every argument I've made in this entire thread takes for granted the idea that God is real.

The question posed by this thread was "is eternal torture just?" I answered from a Christian perspective. What's the problem?

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-04 02:39pm

Dooey Jo wrote:If the people in Hell can't stand God, then it wouldn't suck for them, now would it? And if Hell doesn't suck to be in, how can it be Hell?

It sucks in comparison to Heaven. Plus, you're stuck in it for eternity. Eventually, you'll exhaust the possibilities and get bored. And, unlike Heaven, there's no divine source of joy.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-10-04 02:40pm

Sean Gray wrote:The question posed by this thread was "is eternal torture just?" I answered from a Christian perspective. What's the problem?

You haven't given a reason for the Christian reason to be considered any more than a bad joke, perhaps?

Sean Gray · Post by **Sean Gray** » 2005-10-04 03:39pm

SirNitram wrote:
Sean Gray wrote:The question posed by this thread was "is eternal torture just?" I answered from a Christian perspective. What's the problem?
You haven't given a reason for the Christian reason to be considered any more than a bad joke, perhaps?

I'm assuming you are atheist. Would you consider the argument that we all have souls to be a "bad joke"?

If so, try to argue whether or not eternal torture is just using your assumption that there is no such thing as eternal life. Without eternal life, eternal torture cannot exist, hence the question makes no sense. You might as well ask, "Are circles that are also squares ugly or pretty?"

I took the question from a Christian standpoint because that is the standpoint that assumes immortality of the soul that I am most familiar with.

Anomie · Post by **Anomie** » 2005-10-04 03:44pm

Sean Gray wrote:Is eternal torture just? Maybe not by human standards, but you as an atheist do not have to worry about that. You can only be tortured for as long as you still draw breath. The only people eternal torture concerns are those who consider themselves immortal beings, i.e. Christians. If you don't believe that you have an eternal soul, the question "Is eternal torture good or bad" is moot. If all there is is this earthly life, eternal torture doesn't exist! You're in the clear.

Intresting, I didn't realize that you had to believe in the Christian God in order to belive in a soul. I didn't realize that the two were mutually inclusive.

Wait a sec, what would that make me? I don't nescessarly believe in God but I do believe in souls.

By your definition, I'm a contradiction.

Wake up child, there are a lot of people in the world that either don't believe in your god or don't believe in a god at all, yet still worry about what will happen in the here-after.

Is it just me or does it seem that most Christians are the U.S.A. of religion, that they think that only they matter in the grand scheme of things?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-10-04 03:46pm

According to the Latin (Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) Rite Churches, the Soul will be judged twice. Once, immediatly after Death and a Second time at the ending of the world. It will be this time, that every soul that has ever lived will be put back on trial and therefore judged a second time on what they have done and to presumably ask for clemency and Repentance for what they have done.

According to this belief, it will be the ones who refuse to ask for divine forgiveness that will be be banished to hell along with the Devil. This is under the argument that they had ample oppurtunity to go before God and ask for forgiveness in the upmost sincere way and failed to do it.

Then of course there is the whole situation regarding Purgatory.

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