Shameful Revelation

[cadbrowser]

It's a fuckin shame that murders, rapist, theives, and etc. have more/better civil rights (in America at least) than our children.

Try having a prison guard hit (in discipline) one of his prisoners.

You get a horrid cry from activist groups.

Now have this same prison guard hit (in discipline) one of his own childeren.

His church wouldn't mind, hell most people I've confronted about this type of behavior say the kid probably deserved it.

What kind of a world is this that your own child can be treated worse than the neighbors dog?

How can we teach our children to not be violent when as we tell them we smack 'em?

Anyway, had to get that off my chest.

[Enforcer Talen]

Your making the jump that the church group has the same authority over you as the law does over prison guards;

Youll find the law is strict in both cases.

[Chiaroscuro]

Uh... I'm not sure what prisons you've been exposed to, but the ones I've heard about--especially high-security ones--there is a lot of physical punishment, not just from the guards, but from the prisoners, and nothing gets done about it. Our prison system is pretty bad right now.
Whereas, a history of continuous violence against one's children is abuse, and if noticed leads to imprisonment and (if the parent/s deemed unfit) different custody for the child. Teachers, camp counselors, and social workers are all supposed to notice and report that type of thing. Not many people pay attention to what's going on in prisons. Both child abuse and prison abuse are pretty serious problems, in my opinion.

[Chiaroscuro]

PS: If you could back up your claim that murderers and rapists are treated better, overall, than our nation's children (in terms of physical abuse), I'd be more inclined to view the argument with respect.

[Frank Hipper]

PS: If you could back up your claim that murderers and rapists are treated better, overall, than our nation's children (in terms of physical abuse), I'd be more inclined to view the argument with respect.

No shit!

Show me something more than your opinion, cadbrowser: I've seen too many videotaped casual abuses perpetrated on convicts in prison by guards to greet this with anything but laughing contempt!

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

How about focusing on the real crime: i.e. the fact that non-violent offenders get shut in with hardened rapists, murderers, and violent criminals to be beaten up by the guards all the same?

Corporal punishment has its place, yes, but this almost always shades very quickly into abuse and torture in a prison environment due to the sadistic nature of the people attracted to prison-guard and warden jobs. Incarceration gets turned into extrajudicial torture a lot of times.

[wolveraptor]

I think you'll find that there is a far greater percentage of guards abusing prisoners than parents abusing children. The Adminstration for Children and Families reports that 1.19% of all children were abused in 2004. This includes neglect, threats of harm, congenital drug addiction, sexual abuse, and physical abuse.
Unfortunately, I only have abuse statistics from April 1999, but assuming there hasn't been a huge spike in abuse lately, they should be sufficient for our purposes. According to the Bureau of Justice, about 1 in 5 state inmates, 1 in 10 federal inmates, and 16% of those in local jails were abused at the time of the survey.
Keep in mind, also, that the definitions for child abuse and prisoner abuse are different. What would be considered psychological abuse for a child would be expected of someone who went to prison. I mean, you're supposed to feel bad about being an inmate.

[Chiaroscuro]

I mean, you're supposed to feel bad about being an inmate.

But is that a good thing? Isn't taking away freedom enough of a punishment?

[wolveraptor]

I mean, you're supposed to feel bad about being an inmate.

But is that a good thing? Isn't taking away freedom enough of a punishment?

Not if the prisoner is totally defiant and blames the system instead of himself. If he doesn't realize what he's done is bad, he's likely going to be a repeat offender. Those kinds of people are generally sociopaths.

[Chiaroscuro]

Not if the prisoner is totally defiant and blames the system instead of himself. If he doesn't realize what he's done is bad, he's likely going to be a repeat offender. Those kinds of people are generally sociopaths.

Many people who go to prison--particularly juveniles--end up being repeat offenders anyway. Is abuse going to make that less likely?
And if by sociopaths you mean people with antisocial personality disorder, that's a pretty serious brain problem that isn't the person's fault. They have no sense of morality, so like you said, they don't know what they've done is bad. They need treatment, although there isn't much right now, because people insist on believing that criminals are just "bad" people, rather than people who have some pretty serious psychological and/or sociological damage. But in any case, getting even more physical punishment, when many have been abused as children already (most serial killers not only have a history of serious brain damage, but continual childhood abuse), is probably not going to better help them reenter society.
(This is so much more interesting than the original topic)

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I believe the prison system, as is, is likely subtly designed to increase rates of repeat offense. Long prison sentences for ingesting not very harmful substances leading into overcrowding tends to do that.

Any idea when the last time someone served a five year stretch for guzzling Drano?

[cadbrowser]

No shit!

Show me something more than your opinion, cadbrowser: I've seen too many videotaped casual abuses perpetrated on convicts in prison by guards to greet this with anything but laughing contempt!

On that same token, I've seen too many videotaped abuses perpetrated on children. I've eyewitnessed assaults in walmart, my own neighborhood and other places as well.

So I really have no idea what point you were trying to make here.

Upon further research into human rights I came across some things and it looks like there is a piece of legistlation that was added to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1989 called the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

I will have to read these more in depth. Maybe I'm way off, but I will research more to see if I can provide more details to my ramblings.

I think you'll find that there is a far greater percentage of guards abusing prisoners than parents abusing children. The Adminstration for Children and Families reports that 1.19% of all children were abused in 2004. This includes neglect, threats of harm, congenital drug addiction, sexual abuse, and physical abuse.
Unfortunately, I only have abuse statistics from April 1999, but assuming there hasn't been a huge spike in abuse lately, they should be sufficient for our purposes. According to the Bureau of Justice, about 1 in 5 state inmates, 1 in 10 federal inmates, and 16% of those in local jails were abused at the time of the survey.

Aren't those figures for childeren based on reports that were filed with police or DSF? What about those that nothing is ever done about? That is an unrealistic number that doesn't in any way relflect reality. Also what constitutes abuse? What are they using to measure the level of abuse? As far as I know, a spanking doesn't constitute abuse according to DSF. Even a brutal assault (that I witnessed and reported) on a teenager because she (according to the police officer) probably deserved it.


And your second piece of survey data? Who did they ask? Were these inmates that were polled, or are these results of reports on offending guards?

[Darth Wong]

That 1.19% figure sounds like bullshit to me. The fact that it's so precise can only mean that it's based only on officially reported data, and yet it is no secret that most child abuse (physical and sexual) is not reported. It's a lower limit, not a valid estimate. Using it as an estimate is the same bullshit logic that "Iraq Body Count" uses when they estimate that Iraqi deaths are fewer in number than American military casualties.

[Magus]

Also what constitutes abuse? What are they using to measure the level of abuse?

Wait a second. How can you say that child abuse is better tolerated than prison abuse if you can't even define what child abuse is?

As far as I know, a spanking doesn't constitute abuse according to DSF. Even a brutal assault (that I witnessed and reported) on a teenager because she (according to the police officer) probably deserved it.

Could you please be more specific about what this assault actually was? It's rather difficult to come to a conclusion about your claims given the widely varying opinions regarding what constitutes child abuse.

[cadbrowser]

Wait a second. How can you say that child abuse is better tolerated than prison abuse if you can't even define what child abuse is?

Maybe I didn't clarify when I made that statement. I was wondering what defenition of child abuse was used when the 1.19% figures were tallied.

Let me make this clear, my studies into secular humanism, and on the rights of humanity (children are humans too) have led me to hold the opinion that ANY malicious intentional harm or pain to another human caused by a human is abuse and should NOT be tolerated.

But I realize that my opinion is not necessarily the govenment (states?) definition for DFS.

It is also my opinion that some people think the only way a child (prisoner?) can learn a lesson is to hit them with a stick, belt, fist, hand, or something else is exceedingly stupid and horrible.

Why is this tolerated on any level? Are our childeren so stupid that we must treat them like animals?

Could you please be more specific about what this assault actually was? It's rather difficult to come to a conclusion about your claims given the widely varying opinions regarding what constitutes child abuse.

The child was 15 and a girl. The mother of this girl got very upset (there was an attitude problem) and the mother tossed (yes literally tossed) somebody else's toddler onto my lap (without warning me and I almost dropped her) and proceeded to run off the deck down the stairs and into the yard towhere her daughter was. The mom then grabbed the 15 y.o. by her ponytail and yanked it hard enough that the girl fell head first into the ground. It was a sickening thud. The mom then pulled the 15 y.o. up by the ponytail and proceeded to scream at her and jerk her around the yard (she was making her way into the house). They got up on the deck and the mom took the 15 y.o. head and smashed into the side of the house (next to the sliding glass door) and told her daughter to get the fuckin door.

Well that was all I could handle, I grabbed my wife, and kids and left. I called the police, and DFS, because as hard as the 15 y.o. hit the ground I was concerned that there might be a concussion. Then this woman came to MY house to try to intemmidate me and tried to justify her actions.

Was that specific enough for you Magus?

One of the police officers said that there didn't appear to be any marks, and the child denied that the mother laid a hand on her. He also said that the mother told him that the child was getting bad grades, hanging out with the wrong crowd, and other such nonesense (smoke & mirrors).

The police officer told me that the girl probably deserved it. I was horrified at his attitude.

[Magus]

Was that specific enough for you Magus?

Quite. After reading that, I'm as appalled as you. You must understand, of course, that there are people in the world for whom a spanking, any pushing at all, or other such things are all "abuse." I was just making sure we were all on the same wavelength here.

[Superman]

That cop's attitude is not an example of the system, dude. And I agree with Wong, your percentage (which looks suspiciously more like a percentile and that you pulled it out of your ass) needs to be shown to be true.

What happened to you is horrible, but this type of thing would have CPS all over her ass. In California at least, the police are required to notify them and take a field report.

[Chiaroscuro]

Let me make this clear, my studies into secular humanism, and on the rights of humanity (children are humans too) have led me to hold the opinion that ANY malicious intentional harm or pain to another human caused by a human is abuse and should NOT be tolerated.

No one ever said they should be tolerated. No one ever said children weren't humans. No one ever said child abuse was a good thing, or that it didn't happen, or that teenage girls are never assaulted.
What I do object to is your claiming that prison abuse is much less tolerated by our government than child abuse without any sort of evidence other than vague emotional statements. In fact, I think child abuse is much less acceptable to our society--people are perfectly willing to see children as humans, but not criminals.
Yes, most child abuse doesn't get reported--do you think most prison abuse does? There's really no way to measure them definitively through polling. Therefore until you can come up with some other evidence, don't say you know that child abuse is completely ignored just because you saw one teenager get abused and nothing was done.

[cadbrowser]

That cop's attitude is not an example of the system, dude. And I agree with Wong, your percentage (which looks suspiciously more like a percentile and that you pulled it out of your ass) needs to be shown to be true.

What happened to you is horrible, but this type of thing would have CPS all over her ass. In California at least, the police are required to notify them and take a field report.

That wasn't MY percentage, that was a percentage quoted from a post by wolveraptor.

And that's what happened here in Missouri, a field report was made. But they (DFS) didn't think it was abuse.

What I do object to is your claiming that prison abuse is much less tolerated by our government than child abuse without any sort of evidence other than vague emotional statements.

You are absolutely right. I was irrational with my claim. Unfortunatly, IMO, I don't think there is really an accurate way to get the evidence. Also what would you accept as evidence?

Would it be appropriate to tally all the news reports and newspaper articles where child abuse vs. prison abuse? (Asking in sincerety).

Therefore until you can come up with some other evidence, don't say you know that child abuse is completely ignored just because you saw one teenager get abused and nothing was done.

Where do you get off assuming that I've only witnessed ONE teenager get abused? You don't know me! You didn't even bother to ask. Do you want me to fill this blog with over 12 years of specific stories as a first hand witness of abuse to over 200 children? Where the "government system" has indeed failed these and other children many, many times?

When did I say I know child abuse is COMPLETELY (emphasis mine) ignored?

No one ever said they should be tolerated. No one ever said children weren't humans. No one ever said child abuse was a good thing, or that it didn't happen, or that teenage girls are never assaulted.

When did I say the contrary? I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[Magus]

Would it be appropriate to tally all the news reports and newspaper articles where child abuse vs. prison abuse? (Asking in sincerety).

I doubt this would be very effective, as child abuse would seem to me to be a bit more inflammatory than prison abuse, and would sell more papers.

[wolveraptor]

Aren't those figures for childeren based on reports that were filed with police or DSF? What about those that nothing is ever done about? That is an unrealistic number that doesn't in any way relflect reality. Also what constitutes abuse? What are they using to measure the level of abuse? As far as I know, a spanking doesn't constitute abuse according to DSF. Even a brutal assault (that I witnessed and reported) on a teenager because she (according to the police officer) probably deserved it.

CAPTA defines what states must include in their child abuse policy. It's a long-ass document, and I haven't read it all yet. However, you bring up a good point. It's very likely that many unreported cases occur, so this number is, like Wong said, a lower limit. In fact, it's probably worthless if spanking is indeed legal. The real number must be through the roof.

And your second piece of survey data? Who did they ask? Were these inmates that were polled, or are these results of reports on offending guards?

Also, I somehow linked to the wrong study with that other post. This is what I'm talking about: warning, PDF. That other file is a PDF, too. I forgot to mention that.

To answer your question, most professional surveys tell you their methods on their somewhere. I haven't had the time to look it over yet.

[wolveraptor]

Sorry for the double post.

Many people who go to prison--particularly juveniles--end up being repeat offenders anyway. Is abuse going to make that less likely?

Uh, when the fuck did I say that? I just said that the definition of child abuse does not apply to prisoners. You distorted that statement into, "wolveraptor says abuse helps prisoners".
For example, something CAPTA defines as abuse is neglect. A parent is obligated to spend time to nurture and aid the development of their child. The only possible application of that in prison is rehabilitation, and surely that wouldn't require the same amount of time spent between a parent and his/her child.

And if by sociopaths you mean people with antisocial personality disorder, that's a pretty serious brain problem that isn't the person's fault. They have no sense of morality, so like you said, they don't know what they've done is bad. They need treatment, although there isn't much right now, because people insist on believing that criminals are just "bad" people, rather than people who have some pretty serious psychological and/or sociological damage. But in any case, getting even more physical punishment, when many have been abused as children already (most serial killers not only have a history of serious brain damage, but continual childhood abuse), is probably not going to better help them reenter society.
(This is so much more interesting than the original topic)

Now you've spiraled away from what I've said completely. Point out, please, where I advocated the physical abuse of prisoners. All I meant to say was that prisoners should regret their crimes. There's no rehabilitation without that crucial step. A child, however, shouldn't have to spend most of his time in a state of regret. That would be considered abuse when applied to the child, but not when applied to prisoners.

Of course, I do not feel that drug offenders, especially those who were sentenced on mere posession charges, deserve the same treatment, but that's a whole different can of worms.