Third World Poverty

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Third World Poverty

Post by Gerald Tarrant »

After reading this thread commenting on the gross disparities of wealth, I started wondering about potential solutions to the problem.

I have several problems and proposed solutions

Poor farmers in the third world: Cut agricultural subsidies. There's no reason for a General mills to receive price supports, or tax breaks, which undercut the prices of a farmer in Africa.

Few third world businesses: Unilaterally drop tariffs, if not with everyone, at least with third world countries. This lessens the cost of going global with your supply chain. So even if new businesses aren't created in those countries, multi-nationals can move in and offer new jobs.

No capital: Micro-credit has been discussed endlessly, I'll just note that Muhammed Yunus was a worthy recipient of the Peace prize.

Capital Flight (endemic corruption and lawlessness causes people to take their money overseas where it won't be robbed): I don't know how to solve this one, people have been working on this problem since the colonial powers gave up their empires.

This article

offers a different take on the problem of capital. (
Exactly a century ago, Cemex became the first Mexican cement producer. In 2000, Cemex became the largest cement producer in the world beating out France's Lafarge and Switzerland's Holcim. Although the Cemex market profile has changed over the last hundred years, its early success came from their ability to serve micro-markets -- selling a bag at a time to poor folks.

In a micro-market like this, a homeowner who lacks a title to his house and property (an "informal" homeowner) but has a bit of extra cash, might buy a single bag of cement and a dozen cement blocks and use it to add a few square feet to a house wall. Finishing the house often takes years, but in the end he has a real house. And like 55% of all American wealth, this is where he saves -- he lives in his savings "account."

Cemex mastered this part of the market and has prospered. But poor homeowners throughout the developing world remain poor because their savings account is frozen and so they can't leverage their property. Unlike Americans, these informals have no diversity in their savings. Informal shelter, and the cottage industries they often house, are nearly always their total savings. And also unlike Americans, their savings - their capital - can't be used to back up a credit card or get a home improvement loan. An informal homeowner can't even make a contract with a utility company to deliver electricity or water since the utilities have no way to know who owns the house so have no certainty of being paid.

As a result of this capital being "dead" -- that is, their savings are illiquid -- the potential market it represents is rarely considered by multinational businesses. And when they do think about it, they usually conclude that there isn't a viable strategy to open it widely to their products.

But this market could be enormous. It wasn't long after the collapse of the tech stocks that a new conversation started in the business community; "What," they asked, "is the next big thing?" Well today, these informals hold one of the largest discrete pools of capital ever accumulated. But it is not on anyone's radar screen since these frozen savings are held by the world's poor and so they are relegated to the margins of this conversation despite its enormous size.

Nevertheless, this capital is there and eager to enter the global marketplace if only it can be unlocked. So let me propose a "key" for opening the market and then suggest ways for businesses to help facilitate it.

Unlocking Frozen Capital

Several years ago, the World Bank acknowledged that there was a large "informal" (extralegal) business sector in all developing countries. It was not made informal by tax avoidance but by bureaucracy avoidance (see Doing Business 2004). Ongoing research into the structure of these informal economies reveals the legal, regulatory and bureaucratic barriers for small businessmen and homeowners which block their entry into the formal economy. In fact, these barriers impede modernization for the entire society and render futile the various efforts of aid organizations to significantly reduce poverty. This failure compels poor countries to become dependent on outside sources of capital (commercial loans, government debt and foreign aid).
The above comes from TechCentral Station, which is where libertarians go when we're not re-reading Atlas Shrugged (18 times so far). So it shouldn't surprise anyone that the above proposes a market based solution, and the problem arises from government interference in the market. The above illustrates why micro-credit is so vital, many of the assets available to the impoverished are "illiquid". Bankers therefore treat such people as "unbankable" (from Wiki on micro-credit).

The article also notes that
A billion or so poor families and hundreds of millions of informal businesses yield trillions in this "dead capital" (Adam Smith's term). Six years ago, one well-respected researcher published an estimate that this dead capital was worth nearly ten trillion dollars globally. By comparison, the total loss of market capitalization in the 2001 "tech bubble" crash was just over four trillion dollars.


Brief summary then, there are vast untapped pools of capital in the third world. If someone could un-freeze them then it could allow poorer countries to industrialize and solve their own problems.

So those are some of the more dramatic problems, and potential solutions I see in third world poverty. What are your thoughts, what other problems are there, will my solutions work, what are some other solutions?
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

The real solution is to just wait all of them to die.....

The true basket case countries that have managed none of negative growth is far beyond the help of a few tweeks in the system. All this market and other crap only applies when there is a sane state that can enforce anything and a population not too busy dying or shooting each other.

On the other hand, if given order and careful management, even the poorest country can manage growth at a slow rate. Give them a century and they'll largely fix themselves.... All this tiny, micro issues are just tweeks on top of everything.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Poor farmers in the third world: Cut agricultural subsidies. There's no reason for a General mills to receive price supports, or tax breaks, which undercut the prices of a farmer in Africa.
That would certainly help, banning all agricultural subsidies. Penn effect still fucks a lot of trade up. Wealth will tend to circulate where it's concentrated territorially.
But come on. What you're speaking, at best, is the wiping-out of entire agricultural industries in developed countries. Since when did the fat cats of globalization ever _let_ such things happen?
Remember that food security, despite all the bull that is fed about the "absolutely free globalization", remains a clear principle of integration as it is run by the current players.
Few third world businesses: Unilaterally drop tariffs
Yet another devastating blow to the developed countries' massive industries.
No capital: Micro-credit has been discussed endlessly
Micro-credit can't exactly create a lot of capital, it can amass some wealth to combat citizens' daily poverty but that's about it. FDI is what you need to get _real_ capitals up and running. The best would be either having _very_ strong national capital or importing capital (like Finland did during it's industrial highrise in the 1980's).
Capital Flight (endemic corruption and lawlessness causes people to take their money overseas where it won't be robbed): I don't know how to solve this one
Capital flight problem is far wider than what you've singled out. Capital flight also means that capitals are not simply removed to a "still place", they're _not invested_ in this country. And sometimes they're _invested_ in more developing countries which are net importers of capital. The mass of FDI that is available from world countries in a given year is a cap, and under this cap there is fierce competition - which means countries that are unlucky geographically, have a bad political situation at the moment or someting else are _utterly fucked_. In a way I can't even begin to describe.
I would say that the solution is either erecting protective barriers and state-investing in key industries under their shield, then lifting them and kicking the shit out of the developed coutries (remember, massive reductions of wealth and industry htere follow inevitably), or destroying all national barriers and molding all states into a super-state to exclude the possibility of abuse by those more powerful. Both are unfeasible in the near future, but as history shows, re-nationalization will inevitably follow if country's wealth is ruthlessly plundered by foreign institutions.
Unlike Americans, these informals have no diversity in their savings. Informal shelter, and the cottage industries they often house, are nearly always their total savings. And also unlike Americans, their savings - their capital - can't be used to back up a credit card or get a home improvement loan. An informal homeowner can't even make a contract with a utility company to deliver electricity or water since the utilities have no way to know who owns the house so have no certainty of being paid.
There's no solution to that either because it's the Third fucking World! It can't just have massive, secure capitalist powerheads which maintain their own security - it will be insecure as long as it's Third World, and total freedom of capital allocation will only mean:
a) destruction of national capital concetration systems (banks, industries, vital production)
b) destruction of national currency systems

Last of all, no, the developed countries will _NEVER_ do it, because it means shooting yourself in the foot to make people in other places more wealthy. Massive reduction of wealth in developed countries will lead to public dissent, hatred and social strife, because people are used to consume 40 times what people in the Third WOrld consume and DON'T give a bloody fuck about striving farmers.

And even abolishing all barriers, those who have more capital can simply level the playing field by their economy of scale, backed-up resource, and the fact that they own a lot more and are present on the market since long. Destruction of national industries imminent.

To counter that, you'll need _world-level_ anti-monopoly legislation, which is as unfeasible as turning all world into a superstate. Otherwise there's nothing preventing TNCs from destroying promising competitors before those even have a chance to rise.

So much. Solutions that will never be implemented, or at least implemented to produce real results, and there aren't many solutions to that which do not require the wealthy countries and corporations to give their wealth out.
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Post by Medic »

Social problems keeping Africa in a rut are many religions' influence spreading fearmongering over contraceptives and genetically modified crops thus ensuring continued famine and resultant wars for the foreseeable future. I don't know if it would also oppose education so badly needed to effect some type of change in Africa [trying to keep cavemen out of museums may be seen as evidence it would be], but you can be sure the wealth disparity inherent in Africa would lend itself to perpetuating the system in-place to maximize and prolong the above-average standard of living of a select few.
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Post by brianeyci »

I don't know what your defintion of "solution" is, but mine is money in the hands in the poor and not in the top 2% of the rich. Therefore the only solution is wealth redistribution, laws to take money from the Paris Hiltons and Donald Trumps of the world into public hands, which somehow won't be mismanaged, and the political and public will to sustain heavy casualties subduing warlords and bringing peace to the planet.

Might as well hope Earth's discovered by Darth Vader and ten billion stormtroopers. What you can do is lessen the gap between the rich and the poor, and that means getting rid of the attitude "let them in only if we need them" but let in as many immigrants that the economy can absorb. There may be no solution to cutting the poverty of the third world.

Capitalism "works" because other alternatives are worse. If you find an alternative which isn't ivory tower and has a real world example of wealth redistribution, which doesn't eventually result in a small elite getting hold of that power, let me know.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

brianeyci wrote:What you can do is lessen the gap between the rich and the poor, and that means getting rid of the attitude "let them in only if we need them" but let in as many immigrants that the economy can absorb. There may be no solution to cutting the poverty of the third world.
So, basically, end Third World poverty by moving everyone out of the Third World?
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Post by brianeyci »

Uraniun235 wrote:So, basically, end Third World poverty by moving everyone out of the Third World?
No, it won't end it, but it will lessen the gap. You obviously can't let everybody in unless you want to lower your standard of living to shit, and you have to be selective with who you let in, but the let them in if you need them attitude is anti-humanitarian. Not to mention the attitude's destructive for other reasons... let them in if we need them means we don't need to help people in Africa because it doesn't help us and therefore there's an attitude of fuck the people in Africa.
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Post by Surlethe »

The really big problem is convincing people who don't think this huge wealth disparity is a problem that it actually is. How do you go about doing that?
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Post by Sikon »

While it is true that only a limited number of immigrants are practical in the short-term, much would be possible in the long-term if only the will to do so existed. Let in even just several percent or less of national population annually, and there would be slow exponential growth. It would be a gradual rate but still processing a large number of immigrants eventually. For example, at 3% annual growth, the result is a cumulative growth factor of 1.3 after 10 years, 4.4 after 50 years, 7.9 after 70 years, etc.

Just doing that alone would lead to a weird undesirable situation for eventual world population distribution, but national borders don't have to stay the same forever. A very effective "assimilation" system would be important so that the wealthy country is not overwhelmed by uneducated, unincorporated immigrants. Imagine a fast-operating "melting pot" system in which immigrants from 5 years ago would already be like the rest of the population. On the order of 10% or less of the population would be relatively new and not yet as fully educated at any time. The idea is that old immigrants are fully assimilated with a per capita income of tens of thousands of dollars per year by the time new ones arrive. If done right, the average per capita income of the country does not drop even as its population increases, so its GDP gradually goes up exponentially.

Of course, the preceding is only the ideal, and governments usually are incompetent in comparison. The people of the third-world could theoretically be helped much, but unfortunately there is a severe lack of public interest in doing so. It is ironic, as a nation truely managing to do the preceding successfully enough could eventually become the largest and most powerful nation in history.

Immigration was critical to what led to the U.S. becoming the greatest superpower, particularly the result of relatively massive past 19th-century immigration. Unfortunately, today too few immigrants are legally accepted, while many of those that do arrive are not optimally absorbed.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Stas Bush wrote:
Poor farmers in the third world: Cut agricultural subsidies. There's no reason for a General mills to receive price supports, or tax breaks, which undercut the prices of a farmer in Africa.
That would certainly help, banning all agricultural subsidies. Penn effect still fucks a lot of trade up. Wealth will tend to circulate where it's concentrated territorially.
But come on. What you're speaking, at best, is the wiping-out of entire agricultural industries in developed countries. Since when did the fat cats of globalization ever _let_ such things happen?
Remember that food security, despite all the bull that is fed about the "absolutely free globalization", remains a clear principle of integration as it is run by the current players.
Few third world businesses: Unilaterally drop tariffs
Yet another devastating blow to the developed countries' massive industries.
I agree that both of the above are unlikely to be implemented. Especially now that Republicans are out of control of the Senate and House. It's been noted before that current Democrats aren't like Clinton on free trade. They've been nick-named Lou Dobbs Democrats.

Opposition to free-trade does not invalidate Ricardo's ideas on trade. It's ironic that we're still debating the Corn Laws 200 years later.

I'm unfamiliar with the Penn effect, (I just checked out wiki on it). My brief reading of it suggests that, distortions not withstanding, countries can still realize the benefits of trade due to specialization. Opposition to the policy (corporate fat-cats, whatever) does not change this fact.
Few third world businesses: Unilaterally drop tariffs
Yet another devastating blow to the developed countries' massive industries.
David Ricardo's ideas about the gains due to trade have undergone some revision (We now refer to Heckscher-Ohlin theorem) but this does not invalidate the core concept that countries experience gains due to trade. Yes trade destroys some industries, but it also causes growth in industries where a country has a comparative advantage, the US has an advantage in capital intensive goods. So yes, free-trade will be a blow to some US industries but US industries will hardly collapse, in fact new markets open up. And of course lower prices measurably increase quality of life for the wealthier country.
No capital: Micro-credit has been discussed endlessly
Micro-credit can't exactly create a lot of capital, it can amass some wealth to combat citizens' daily poverty but that's about it. FDI is what you need to get _real_ capitals up and running. The best would be either having _very_ strong national capital or importing capital (like Finland did during it's industrial highrise in the 1980's).
I apologize for that section, I' was sloppy in my use of "capital". I mean it in both senses, both the monetary sense (invested money), and the physical sense, things that increase your productivity without being used up. For physical capital, micro-credit is a perfect prescription for increasing it, albeit on a small/individual scale.

As you note micro-credit increases wealth. I think it's worth pointing out a truism, given adequate liquidity wealth=financial capital. The targets of micro-credit who get wealth can do whatever they want with it, hid it under a matress, spend it on luxuries, or invest it. But some percentage of it turn into financial capital, invested or saved currency.

Obviously Direct Foreign Investment would be better than micro-credit: large amounts of investment are needed. Unfortunately as you note there is only a limited amout of DFI, any investment is better than no investment.

I'm unfamiliar with the case of Finland which you mentioned,
The best would be either having _very_ strong national capital or importing capital (like Finland did during it's industrial highrise in the 1980's)
If you have any more you'd like to say on this I'd appreciate it.
Capital Flight (endemic corruption and lawlessness causes people to take their money overseas where it won't be robbed): I don't know how to solve this one
Capital flight problem is far wider than what you've singled out. Capital flight also means that capitals are not simply removed to a "still place", they're _not invested_ in this country. And sometimes they're _invested_ in more developing countries which are net importers of capital. The mass of FDI that is available from world countries in a given year is a cap, and under this cap there is fierce competition - which means countries that are unlucky geographically, have a bad political situation at the moment or someting else are _utterly fucked_. In a way I can't even begin to describe.
I would say that the solution is either erecting protective barriers and state-investing in key industries under their shield, then lifting them and kicking the shit out of the developed coutries (remember, massive reductions of wealth and industry htere follow inevitably), or destroying all national barriers and molding all states into a super-state to exclude the possibility of abuse by those more powerful. Both are unfeasible in the near future, but as history shows, re-nationalization will inevitably follow if country's wealth is ruthlessly plundered by foreign institutions.
Again I note that trade theory says while there will be losses to some industries, gains due to trade outweigh the costs. Your suggestions for solving capital flight look good, but I've been under the impression that barriers like that make people more reluctant to invest in a country.

About the super-state, eventually that would be nice, in the short term, as you said, it's unrealistic.
Unlike Americans, these informals have no diversity in their savings. Informal shelter, and the cottage industries they often house, are nearly always their total savings. And also unlike Americans, their savings - their capital - can't be used to back up a credit card or get a home improvement loan. An informal homeowner can't even make a contract with a utility company to deliver electricity or water since the utilities have no way to know who owns the house so have no certainty of being paid.
There's no solution to that either because it's the Third fucking World! It can't just have massive, secure capitalist powerheads which maintain their own security - it will be insecure as long as it's Third World, and total freedom of capital allocation will only mean:
a) destruction of national capital concetration systems (banks, industries, vital production)
b) destruction of national currency systems
I'm not sure we're discussing the same things. I'll sum up the argument as I see it. The western model of loans, involves colateral, houses, cars, some sort of property. Unfortunately, plenty of folks in the 3rd world find themselves without any acceptable colateral. One solution is micro-credit
as I briefly mentioned. The article I sited suggests that despite the unrecognized nature of the colateral, it still has some value. The number $10 trillion was suggested. This is UNRECOGNIZED wealth, it's untapped because no one has bothered trying to tap it. Schemes which formalize the ownership of the colateral allow people to get access to wealth. Some of which can be used for the formation of physical capital.

Last of all, no, the developed countries will _NEVER_ do it, because it means shooting yourself in the foot to make people in other places more wealthy. Massive reduction of wealth in developed countries will lead to public dissent, hatred and social strife, because people are used to consume 40 times what people in the Third WOrld consume and DON'T give a bloody fuck about striving farmers.

And even abolishing all barriers, those who have more capital can simply level the playing field by their economy of scale, backed-up resource, and the fact that they own a lot more and are present on the market since long. Destruction of national industries imminent.

To counter that, you'll need _world-level_ anti-monopoly legislation, which is as unfeasible as turning all world into a superstate. Otherwise there's nothing preventing TNCs from destroying promising competitors before those even have a chance to rise.

So much. Solutions that will never be implemented, or at least implemented to produce real results, and there aren't many solutions to that which do not require the wealthy countries and corporations to give their wealth out.
Again your view of trade seems to be a zero-sum game. I'm personally convinced that that is NOT the case. Free trade allows all parties involved to benefit from the specializations their trade partners have made.

Free-trade seems to be fighting a losing battle. In the US, Clinton's trade policy (nick-named Rubinomics) is not in vogue, Americans are likely to close up their markets some. The unpopularity of Globalisation doesn't invalidate the ideas though. And I'm amused that a guy who advocates a technocracy considers the unpopularity of a proposal to be a valid criticism.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

sorry for the double post, I took a long time writing up the above (to respond to Stas Bush)

I just wanted to respond to this
brianeyci wrote:I don't know what your defintion of "solution" is, but mine is money in the hands in the poor and not in the top 2% of the rich. Therefore the only solution is wealth redistribution, laws to take money from the Paris Hiltons and Donald Trumps of the world into public hands, which somehow won't be mismanaged, and the political and public will to sustain heavy casualties subduing warlords and bringing peace to the planet.
Wealth redistribution, is one solution. But it's not the only one. Another alternative starts by considering how wealth is forumlated. The simple answer is by income greater than expenditures. Wealth redistribution does nothing to adress the disparity in incomes between the rich and the poor. If all you did was move the money around, inequality would pop up quickly, due to income disparities. The only difference would be that the lazy rich (Heirs to colossal fortunes) would not be able to recreate their fortunes. But doctors, lawyers, and other highly productive individuals would still be able to generate wealth, and hence large inequality.

Most of the solutions I posted are ways to increase income, which aids in wealth formation.

[quote = "Brianeyci"]and the political and public will to sustain heavy casualties subduing warlords and bringing peace to the planet. [/quote]

We can hope. Unfortunately recent experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as a previous attempt in Somalia, suggest that their is little stomach for the nation building needed.
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Post by Sikon »

Adding a little to my previous post in this thread on the potential benefit of immigration:

An upper limit on the effect of "redistribution" alone is implied by the total world GDP divided by the total population, equating to $9500 annually (ref.), still below U.S. poverty level, and that is before practical problems like incompetent governments managing to waste a lot of money, damage productivity, etc. Certainly there still could be benefit from much more foreign aid than today's tiny amount to the poorest countries, if done right. However, immigration has exceptional potential because it can not only effectively redistribute economic output but actually increase economic output as well.

For example, ideally, a person who once made $1000 annually in a third-world country can after immigration eventually have tens of thousands of dollars annually. He/she can not only be able to consume that much but also produce that much. To give another example, hypothetically redistributing U.S. production of airplanes to the third-world would accomplish much less than upgrading today's third-world population to produce as many airplanes relative to population as Americans. Obviously, the immigration scenario in my last post is only an ideal, but, if it was ever approached at all, immigration could help a lot of third-world people.
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Post by Pelranius »

That's assuming the Earth has enough resources and carrying capacity to allow everyone to acheive First World production levels.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Pelranius wrote:That's assuming the Earth has enough resources and carrying capacity to allow everyone to acheive First World production levels.
But it would! ...if only the world population was about an order of magnitude smaller.
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Post by Sikon »

Pelranius wrote:That's assuming the Earth has enough resources and carrying capacity to allow everyone to acheive First World production levels.
Such wouldn't work on oil, but oil is not even going to support well the present level of civilization once peak oil effects start appearing. For smarter technological use, the situation is different in the long-term. I covered a similar topic before in parts of several posts in this thread. To summarize, there are billions of tons of uranium in seawater for nuclear power, practically unlimited quantities of the most important metals like iron and aluminum in earth's crust, etc. Even in my random example of 3% per year population growth from immigration, the process is slow enough for transition. What really determines prosperity and even environmental issues is how technology is applied.

Also, regarding "overpopulation," see the discussion in that thread, since it would be repetitive to repeat it here.

In practice, there are fairly incompetent governments; nations currently aren't using technology in the right manner; much of the third-world will remain poor for the foreseeable future; and the kind of immigration scenario discussed is not occurring. However, something different would be possible, and my point is to illustrate what would be better.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I'm unfamiliar with the Penn effect, (I just checked out wiki on it). My brief reading of it suggests that, distortions not withstanding, countries can still realize the benefits of trade due to specialization. Opposition to the policy (corporate fat-cats, whatever) does not change this fact.
The problem is not that countries can specialize. The fatter players have economies of scale so unimaginably vast that the size of this economy of scale alone can exceed no matter if the quality of goods and services is similar/equal or even better, local players are levelled to the ground because of the fatcats' vastly superior economy of scale/dumping ability, capitalization of assets and marketing abilities. This is how the First World can essentially maintain dominion over the Third World inefinetely.

Another problem is also the fast mobility of some production factors, but immobility of others - which is what leads to destruction of the Third World. Let's examine capital flight. The comparative advantage model requires all production factors to be totally landlocked, so to say, it doesn't account for situations which occur when factors are mobile. Okay, one might say, what's the problem if capital and labour are totally mobile? Capital moves out from territory X to Y, yeah, people of X will starve if landlocked... but a totally mobile labour means they'll be able to migrate totally to territory Y. The problem is - labour is immobile compared to capitals' mobility and for the most part can't migrate to territory Y - sans the most elite cadres (the "brain drain"). So the model is like that: majority of the capital and the best and most qualified segment of the labour force flee from the country, leaving it depraved of human and capital resource. This situation does not get better, it perpetrates itself further into the future just like poverty does.

Yes trade destroys some industries, but it also causes growth in industries where a country has a comparative advantage

Trade itself causes nothing, really. Only direct investment causes growth. Speculative trade is worthless and creates exactly the type of shitty Third World resorts we all are so worried about. Without long-term investment, trade regardless, there will be nothing but misery.
So yes, free-trade will be a blow to some US industries but US industries will hardly collapse

Do you understand that "some" industries mean entire sectors which have currently more costly production than their 3W counterparts? Agriculture, for example? Free-trade _with_ US/EU protectionism is a mirror of the situation - entire agricultural industries are simply vaped, and I mean vaped. That is in no way different from the reverse situation which will happen if the US/EU suddenly loses it's unfair advanages - their cost-inferior agriculture will be vaped.
So how good will US farmers feel about US argiculture being vaped by 3W companies? I would believe pretty damn bad. How will US car manufacturers feel if tariffs on Japanese cars be lifted? Assraped. Same with many, many other industries.

There's a lot of social disasters that will happen when some colosses will tumble down, _if_ they do.

As I said, huge companies can squander/bankrupt opposition by virtue of resource economies that give the ability of price dumping, as well as due to sheer size, being more reliable investment assets opposed to 3W companies. Which means 3W will invest in foreign giants, not their own kin. Pretty fucked up, but that's how it works now and not much is changing...

Unfortunately as you note there is only a limited amout of DFI, any investment is better than no investment.

You're correct here, obviosly. I'm merely remarking that without direct investment, either foreign or domestic, radical improvements will not occur.

The number $10 trillion was suggested. This is UNRECOGNIZED wealth, it's untapped because no one has bothered trying to tap it.

Libertarian ideas are ridiculous - it's the same like their idea that removing all taxation and regulation will lead to improvement (taxes are seen as a "free source of additional money", which is bull). Same here - $10 trillion of "untapped" wealth and no one has been getting it out? Yeah, right... it's as if people are dumb fucks who don't realize this resource? Rest assured, those who make money, do realize it, and if it was really $10 trillion, there'd be people working to extract as much as possile from it. The fact that it's "untapped" means that the cost of "extracting" this money is more than what can be gained, or, alternatively, that $10 trillion of "untapped monetary resource" are fiction.

Again your view of trade seems to be a zero-sum game. I'm personally convinced that that is NOT the case. Free trade allows all parties involved to benefit from the specializations their trade partners have made.

Trade and investment are different things, really. Trade in an open system where investment is a capped resource means that those who have inferior positions to compete for investment are fucked anyway, period. Capital flight in an open system means that your capital is also a capped resource, which is decreased with time because you have less suitable conditions for capitalization - you're fucked, period. Your entire nation - just like enterprises go bankrupt and people are left jobless and insecure, entire nations go "bankrupt". But a nation is a very huge "enterprise", and if it fails in the market of nations, the outcome is harsh - it's labour is not mobile and cannot 100% shift... people die.

Imagine an open market with investment competitors A to Z and amount of investment fixed as (I), close to totally unmobile labour. Say, 2 companies that have 100 employees each, then firm A destroys firm B and captures close to 100% of the market share (an exaggeration but to make the example). B is vaped, bankrupt, people are jobless and starving... but they can't do shit. They can't enter A because A is full (resource cap), and they're _royally fucked_ since there's nothing to generate revenue anymore. No way out of this, trade or no trade. You can say that it's unbeneficial to A not to help B out. But that fails as A can have 100% it's resource (I) allocated to investment type Y which is more beneficial than B... and thus B people fails to compete for investment, still royally fucked. In the end probably what's left of the "murdered" B will invest in A or Y since there's nothing else to do... :lol:

Now imagine all that happening, but on a national scale.
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General Brock
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Post by General Brock »

A solution would have to involve removing the economic and social incentives to have a Third World in the first place. I don't see that happening, any more than removing inequity in the First World. The impoverished and disempowered, as people and class of people seem essential to the dominant interpretation of liberal capitalism.

Cheap labour is needed for the dirty work, there can only be so many positions of ownership, the fear of poverty keeps people productive and reinforces some social hierarchies and customs, and some people are just less capable of securing themselves economically than others. Too many social factors inspire the financial mechanisms behind poverty.
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