JW's and blood products

[mr friendly guy]

Now we all know Jehova's Witnesses refuse blood because of their religious beliefs. Today at work a patient who had an eye operation performed by my bosses was inadvertantly given a blood product. The product wasn't even given intravenously, it was dabbed in gauze and placed on the eye to promote clotting. If any one is interested, the protein is thrombin.

I will spare you whole story, suffice to say she reacted with revulsion when I mentioned that the product was derived from cows (I was informed that JW's only have problems if the product is human derived, but apparently this was not so with her). However I should note that I called one of the hospital's chaplain who is a JW and he felt that in case of what I described its more of a personal choice, likening it to a choice between disprin or solprin (they are both essentially the same drug, ie aspirin, just made by different drug companies and given different names). Ergo he didn't feel some blood products should be treated the same as blood cells.

Personally I don't think this counts as blood. To expand on this, when most people think of a blood transfusion, we are thinking packed cells, ie red blood cells. Thrombin and other clotting factors are protein found in the blood which promote clotting. She just thought very simply "blood is blood".

I should point out, if anything found is blood is considered the same as blood, then following that logic a JW would also reject medications which are endocrine hormones since they have to circulate in blood to reach their target. This would include adrenalin (for allergic reactions), insulin for diabetes etc. Moreover if they aren't suppose to contaminate themselves with animals, then why do they eat meat?

I do have several questions I want to throw to the members of the board.

a) do JW typically treat other blood products in the same light as a blood transfusion - this includes clotting factors which are protein as opposed to cells such as red blood cells and platelets (ok strictly speaking platelets are cell fragments)

b) am I splitting hairs, or is "blood is blood"

c) which bible verses actually do tell you against blood transfusions or the use of animal products (lets just keep it as animal products for medical procedures)

[Gustav32Vasa]

Why do JWs refuse blood tranfusions? What is it in their holy book that says its wrong?

[Molyneux]

Why do JWs refuse blood tranfusions? What is it in their holy book that says its wrong?

I think it's the verse that goes something like "Thou shalt be ignorant, arrogant fuckheads."

[Rye]

This comes from the bit in Acts where Paul says to abstain from blood. They thought blood transfusions meant people were feeding on the blood, though, by that reasoning, they should ban pregnancy, too.

Lately, the JWs have been showing signs of potentially changing this policy, though, since now they say it's up to the individual to make a conscientious choice on their own, since the larger church is unsure of what position to take. Individual blood products per se aren't necessarily disallowed, nor are plasma products, they jsut get bent out of shape over it all being delivered at once.

Apparently, they've not been excommunicating members for accepting blood transfusions anymore, but I would presume condemnation and the lame social shunning practises are still practised.

[Darth Servo]

Why do JWs refuse blood tranfusions? What is it in their holy book that says its wrong?

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.

Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.

For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.

Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

How they got from "don't eat blood" to "don't have in transused is a mystery known only to the great infalliable elders of the Watchtower society. They attempt to justify it with "If a doctor said don't drink alcohol would you think it OK to inject it into your veins?" nevermind the enormous difference between eating and organ transplants. But then they use to think organ transplants were forbidden too.

Of course the last verse is particularly interesting since they don't have any problem eating fat.

[Enigma]

We refuse blood transfusions or use products containing whole blood. But where medications or treatments involving blood fractions is up to our conscience.

We abstain from taking or using blood as was mentioned in Acts 15:28-29.

DS: Have you read more than Lev 3:17 regarding fat? That scripture was referring to the communion sacrifices in which fat was used and not to be consumed.

[Setesh]

This comes from the bit in Acts where Paul says to abstain from blood. They thought blood transfusions meant people were feeding on the blood, though, by that reasoning, they should ban pregnancy, too.

Lately, the JWs have been showing signs of potentially changing this policy, though, since now they say it's up to the individual to make a conscientious choice on their own, since the larger church is unsure of what position to take. Individual blood products per se aren't necessarily disallowed, nor are plasma products, they jsut get bent out of shape over it all being delivered at once.

Apparently, they've not been excommunicating members for accepting blood transfusions anymore, but I would presume condemnation and the lame social shunning practises are still practised.

See that's because the JW leadership are better than average conartists and realise that outlawing something that keeps your suckers alive is a bad idea. Basic parasitism, the host must survive long enough for the parasite to spread. Keeping the host just weak (ie. dumb) enough not to get rid of it but not so weak it dies.

Speaking of which aren't we due another round of 'the world is about to end so give all your money to us if you want to see heaven' from these dipsticks?

[Broomstick]

I am not a JW (apparently a JW does answer in this thread), although I do work with them.

I will spare you whole story, suffice to say she reacted with revulsion when I mentioned that the product was derived from cows (I was informed that JW's only have problems if the product is human derived, but apparently this was not so with her). However I should note that I called one of the hospital's chaplain who is a JW and he felt that in case of what I described its more of a personal choice, likening it to a choice between disprin or solprin (they are both essentially the same drug, ie aspirin, just made by different drug companies and given different names). Ergo he didn't feel some blood products should be treated the same as blood cells.

Question: Did the chaplain you consulted have more education than your patient? JW's are not a homogenous group and education and reasoning levels vary among them just as much as among the general population.

Personally I don't think this counts as blood.

No, but it sounds like maybe she did....

To expand on this, when most people think of a blood transfusion, we are thinking packed cells, ie red blood cells. Thrombin and other clotting factors are protein found in the blood which promote clotting. She just thought very simply "blood is blood".

And she would not be alone, either among JW's or in the population at large. The vast majority of people have quite rudimentary medical and biological knowledge

I should point out, if anything found is blood is considered the same as blood, then following that logic a JW would also reject medications which are endocrine hormones since they have to circulate in blood to reach their target. This would include adrenalin (for allergic reactions), insulin for diabetes etc.

To you that might all be the same, but to a segment of the general population there is a different between things that are excreted into the blood vs. things are are inherently part of the blood. Where they draw that line is all over the place and may have little to do with objective biological facts.

Moreover if they aren't suppose to contaminate themselves with animals, then why do they eat meat?

Where I work, the JW in the next cube over is a vegetarian for exactly that reason.

am I splitting hairs, or is "blood is blood"

You're splitting hairs from the viewpoint of someone outside the medical field. To a LOT of people "blood is blood", and not just JW's. It just that with JW's that viewpoint can wind up killing them if they need blood to survive an accident or medical procedure.

[mr friendly guy]

Question: Did the chaplain you consulted have more education than your patient? JW's are not a homogenous group and education and reasoning levels vary among them just as much as among the general population.

I have no idea about his education level. I just assumed the religion will have some sort of written code of conduct for its members which would deal with specific moral quandaries.

To you that might all be the same, but to a segment of the general population there is a different between things that are excreted into the blood vs. things are are inherently part of the blood. Where they draw that line is all over the place and may have little to do with objective biological facts.

Thats an interesting thought since even red blood cells are secreted into the blood from the bone marrow. Note, I am not saying all things in blood are the same, I am just taking their logic to its proper conclusion. I would consider clotting factors to be counted as a blood product rather than blood itself, the same way milk is a cow's product, but milk itself is not a four legged animal which goes moo.

Where I work, the JW in the next cube over is a vegetarian for exactly that reason.

I didn't realise they are vegetarians. I just thought whether they are vegetarians or not was a personal choice, or in other words, the religion didn't specifically prohibit it.

[Darth Servo]

We refuse blood transfusions or use products containing whole blood. But where medications or treatments involving blood fractions is up to our conscience.

We abstain from taking or using blood as was mentioned in Acts 15:28-29.

Except "taking or using" isn't mentioned anywhere in the verse. And its clearly just a sacred cow given that it also mentions things like "things strangled" which the JWs don't seem to pay any attention to.

DS: Have you read more than Lev 3:17 regarding fat? That scripture was referring to the communion sacrifices in which fat was used and not to be consumed.

Bullshit. Read the actual verse. "ALL GENERATIONS", "ALL DWELLINGS" are forbidden from eating fat. Not just the ones around the temple. A Jew who was taken from Israel, living in Babylon was under those exact same commandments even though they could not perform the ritual at the temple/tabernacle. You aren't about to claim that the refusal of blood was just "referring to the communion sacrifices".

[Rye]

We refuse blood transfusions or use products containing whole blood. But where medications or treatments involving blood fractions is up to our conscience.

So, why don't JWs ban pregnancy? I mean, everything in the blood passes through the placental wall, that's how they grow and live during the gestation period, denying blood transfusions but allowing for pregnancy seems to be totally hypocritical.

DS: Have you read more than Lev 3:17 regarding fat? That scripture was referring to the communion sacrifices in which fat was used and not to be consumed.

DS was accurate, actually. 16 ends with "All fat is the lord's" and 17 says "It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, in all your settlements: you must not eat any fat or any blood."

[Junghalli]

And its clearly just a sacred cow given that it also mentions things like "things strangled" which the JWs don't seem to pay any attention to.

Would that be a serious issue in the modern world? My knowledge of the subject is very limited but I think most commercial slaughterhouses kill their animals by methods other than strangulation.

[Superman]

I would just say that such a stupid belief is Natural Selection in action. If you're psychologically fucked up to the point of rejecting life-saving modern medical practice, then get the fuck out of everyone else's way. We're better off without you here.

[Molyneux]

I would just say that such a stupid belief is Natural Selection in action. If you're psychologically fucked up to the point of rejecting life-saving modern medical practice, then get the fuck out of everyone else's way. We're better off without you here.

What about kids who are raised in those beliefs, though?

[Superman]

I would just say that such a stupid belief is Natural Selection in action. If you're psychologically fucked up to the point of rejecting life-saving modern medical practice, then get the fuck out of everyone else's way. We're better off without you here.

What about kids who are raised in those beliefs, though?

It's tantamount to child abuse, but society doesn't seem to have a problem with it. It's sad.

[Jack Bauer]

I would just say that such a stupid belief is Natural Selection in action. If you're psychologically fucked up to the point of rejecting life-saving modern medical practice, then get the fuck out of everyone else's way. We're better off without you here.

What about kids who are raised in those beliefs, though?

It's tantamount to child abuse, but society doesn't seem to have a problem with it. It's sad.

I remember articles that the Watchtower Society published that cited stories about kids who refused blood transfusions and died as a result. They were lauded as having been "faithful to the end". It was sickening. I remember that even as a 12 year old, I still couldn't accept this tripe. This practice was precisely one of the reasons I quit being a JW.

[Broomstick]

Question: Did the chaplain you consulted have more education than your patient? JW's are not a homogenous group and education and reasoning levels vary among them just as much as among the general population.

I have no idea about his education level. I just assumed the religion will have some sort of written code of conduct for its members which would deal with specific moral quandaries.

But even when religions do have that written guideline there is always room for interpretation.

To you that might all be the same, but to a segment of the general population there is a different between things that are excreted into the blood vs. things are are inherently part of the blood. Where they draw that line is all over the place and may have little to do with objective biological facts.

Thats an interesting thought since even red blood cells are secreted into the blood from the bone marrow. Note, I am not saying all things in blood are the same, I am just taking their logic to its proper conclusion. I would consider clotting factors to be counted as a blood product rather than blood itself, the same way milk is a cow's product, but milk itself is not a four legged animal which goes moo.

The thing is - YOU know a lot more about blood than the average person. They don't "follow to the logical conclusion". While the typical person is aware of something called a "red blood cell" they usually haven't a clue about platelets or clotting factors or any of the other parts involved in blood, or where they come from.

Where I work, the JW in the next cube over is a vegetarian for exactly that reason.

I didn't realise they are vegetarians. I just thought whether they are vegetarians or not was a personal choice, or in other words, the religion didn't specifically prohibit it.

My co-worker has decided/interpreted that vegetarianism is required - it is by no means a universal among JW's. I've known JW's who would only eat kosher meat (koshering removes blood from the flesh) as a way of observing the "no blood" prohibition and others who weren't nearly as concerned about the juicy slab of steak on their plate.

[Kristoff]

There is technology to process blood from slaughterhouse into food "protein additive" which origin is not specified on final product. I don't know if this is in use, I just wonder what would JW do if they knew that?

[Broomstick]

Probably freak