Paganism
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Paganism
I know this isn't covered a whole lot, but I want to know people's opinions on it.
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Well, the way I look at it is that it's really neo-Paganism, in that these religions have been extinct for centuries, and any records of their rituals are sure to be tainted with a Christian viewpoint.
In all things I'm pretty much a purist, you see. My Chinese food has to be as authentic as I can get it, likewise my Mexican. Same would go for religion, if I were so inclined.
But to put it in a mutshell, whatever floats yer boat. As long as I'm not being preached at or condemned.
In all things I'm pretty much a purist, you see. My Chinese food has to be as authentic as I can get it, likewise my Mexican. Same would go for religion, if I were so inclined.
But to put it in a mutshell, whatever floats yer boat. As long as I'm not being preached at or condemned.
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Well, a lot of times it is looked as neo-paganism, but there are a few that practice the real thing, but it is hard t find those that do. Wicca is what is Christian-infiltrated, but Wicca is also a fad religion. I personally don't like it when people describe their religionm as one thing and then go to another a little while later, but I can understand those that say they are looking for their own, where they belong. And I won't be one to preach, trust me, unless the subject happens to come up, but even then, I would try to take a secular view. Just don't tramp on my views and I won't go on yours.Frank Hipper wrote:Well, the way I look at it is that it's really neo-Paganism, in that these religions have been extinct for centuries, and any records of their rituals are sure to be tainted with a Christian viewpoint.
In all things I'm pretty much a purist, you see. My Chinese food has to be as authentic as I can get it, likewise my Mexican. Same would go for religion, if I were so inclined.
But to put it in a mutshell, whatever floats yer boat. As long as I'm not being preached at or condemned.
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Love it. If I wasn't an atheist, I'd be a pagan (The whole believing thing is a big step for me)
I'm just in love with the idea of a Father Sun and Mother Earth - it makes more sense than any other religion and is very close to truth.
I'm just in love with the idea of a Father Sun and Mother Earth - it makes more sense than any other religion and is very close to truth.
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Unless some random modern Cult has taken the word 'Pagan' as its name, as far as I'm aware Pagan means some one who isnt a Christian, Muslim, or Jew.
Taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan
IIRC Native American Indians were not eco-friendly. That idea was generated by the American setlers, which the Indians adopted.
Taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pagan
- One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
- One who has no religion.
- A non-Christian.
- A hedonist.
- A Neo-Pagan.
IIRC Native American Indians were not eco-friendly. That idea was generated by the American setlers, which the Indians adopted.
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They were not eco-friendly in comparison to what? Modern industry? The early American settlers who mounted guns on their trains and let people pay to use buffalo as target practice, leaving their rotting carcasses to lay in the field for fun where the Indians would have carefully used every piece?ggs wrote:IIRC Native American Indians were not eco-friendly. That idea was generated by the American setlers, which the Indians adopted.
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As I recall, that was, in fact, a deliberate effort on the part of the American government to eliminate the plains Indians (who they knew to be highly dependent on the buffalo herds).Darth Wong wrote: They were not eco-friendly in comparison to what? Modern industry? The early American settlers who mounted guns on their trains and let people pay to use buffalo as target practice, leaving their rotting carcasses to lay in the field for fun where the Indians would have carefully used every piece?
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
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-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
I think in this case the original poster was referring to the pagan religions of Europe, those still practiced in the dark/middle ages when the term pagan would have been coined. Pagan comes from the latin "country-dweller" and would refer to the "primitives" that had yet to be "civilized" by the Roman Catholic Church.
While the notion of the ancient European religions conjures up somewhat romantic images (being in touch with nature, fighting against the tyranny of the Romans and later the Catholic church, etc) .... they were still religions (read: not rational) and many included such things as human sacrifice, population control via priestly incite into the divine, etc.
I guess if I wasn't an athiest, and had to choose, I'd be some form of paganism, because there's no church to tell me what to do, plus it would spook the local Christians.
While the notion of the ancient European religions conjures up somewhat romantic images (being in touch with nature, fighting against the tyranny of the Romans and later the Catholic church, etc) .... they were still religions (read: not rational) and many included such things as human sacrifice, population control via priestly incite into the divine, etc.
I guess if I wasn't an athiest, and had to choose, I'd be some form of paganism, because there's no church to tell me what to do, plus it would spook the local Christians.
What I'm complaining about is the apparent idiolization of how 'eco-friendly' Native American Indians are. No human is 'eco-friendly', practically imposible. An asteriod colony/space station would be eco-friendly, becasue there is no local eco-system to destroy.Darth Wong wrote:They were not eco-friendly in comparison to what? Modern industry?ggs wrote:IIRC Native American Indians were not eco-friendly. That idea was generated by the American setlers, which the Indians adopted.
IIRC Modern industry is still cleaner than Industrial revolution period.
That sounds like a tactic to drive of hunter-gathers off their lands by depriving them of required food(which because they were hunter-gathers they never had enough). The only reason the Indians would have carefully used every piece, is beacuse they need to.The early American settlers who mounted guns on their trains and let people pay to use buffalo as target practice, leaving their rotting carcasses to lay in the field for fun where the Indians would have carefully used every piece?
Eco-friendly-ness is mainly economics, in the long term it pays to be eco-friendly. Were the exact meaning of 'eco-friendly' is subject to debate.
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It has been my experience with Wiccans solely that many of their members come from broken homes and have a desire to belong to something. I went to one of their meetings at the behest of an ex that was slowly becoming Wiccan after years of being an athiest/agnostic. What I met in that meeting was a grab bag of men and women who each desperately wanted to be more than what they were and most if not all came from homes where dad left at an early age or the parents were divorced. I only mention this because I have never been in a single room with so many people that had the same back ground.
Wiccan became for them a place where they could belong and had a family (This was stressed again by nearly every member to me that they felt like they were in one big family)
I do not want to offend any Wiccans on this board, my expereinece is limited to the Wiccan community here in NYC maybe its different elsewhere but the definate impression I got when I left them was that this was a very cult like atmosphere with a bunch of people that just did not have anywhere else to go and wanted to have the happy family they did not have in RL. The fact that they tried very hard to convert me during that one meeting was also slightly offensive.
My ex became a full fledged Wiccan shortly thereafter and we broke up.
Does this mean that the neo pagan community is bad? NOPE. But they have to realize that what they are running away from is what they are running to. Wiccan is not quantifiably better than any other religion, as if any religion is better. But there were ALOT of ex Catholics in that group, disgruntled Christians turning elsewhere for a need or thirst to believe.
Wiccan became for them a place where they could belong and had a family (This was stressed again by nearly every member to me that they felt like they were in one big family)
I do not want to offend any Wiccans on this board, my expereinece is limited to the Wiccan community here in NYC maybe its different elsewhere but the definate impression I got when I left them was that this was a very cult like atmosphere with a bunch of people that just did not have anywhere else to go and wanted to have the happy family they did not have in RL. The fact that they tried very hard to convert me during that one meeting was also slightly offensive.
My ex became a full fledged Wiccan shortly thereafter and we broke up.
Does this mean that the neo pagan community is bad? NOPE. But they have to realize that what they are running away from is what they are running to. Wiccan is not quantifiably better than any other religion, as if any religion is better. But there were ALOT of ex Catholics in that group, disgruntled Christians turning elsewhere for a need or thirst to believe.
Wherever you go, there you are.
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Stravo wrote:Does this mean that the neo pagan community is bad? NOPE. But they have to realize that what they are running away from is what they are running to.
All faiths are like that. I, too, have had interesting run-ins with the smaller cults and religions like paganism, wicca, even bizarre cults like vampires and classical viking religion followers.
The important thing to note is that the tenets of a faith are irrelevant to the kind of people who pledge themselves to it. Like Stravo points out, a lot of people adopt faiths because of fear, lonliness, a need to be popular or a rebel, or some kind of underlying quest for self-worth or importance.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
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Although to stay on-topic, I don't know much about paganism as a faith, merely the people who participate in it. And, like I said, the attitudes of pagans does little to demonstrate that they're somehow different people than anyone else, and isn't that all that counts?
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
->Stravo
I'm not from NYC, I'm not even from the americas but I really share your view on the subject.
I think that you will enjoy this link:
http://whywiccanssuck.com/
It's written by a wiccan so no offense intended...
->All
The problem as I see it is that people who call themselves pagans usually have a deep sentiment of being persecuted by other religions, commonly up to seeking out fundamentalist christians just to prove themselves right.
example
Saying that you are prosecuted by society for being a satanist, then torch a church get arrested and claim that as proof for persucation.
Then we have the whole issue of people who really are new-age (ie mix whatever you fancy right now) claim to be everything from asatru to druids to wiccan. Sometimes I feel that they think that life is a roleplaying game and by claiming to be a druid they will automatically & without research get the supernatural abilities ascribed to them...
If you are interested in older religion and neo versions thereof then here are some links:
http://www.runestone.org/flash/home.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/general.html
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml
http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook.html
I'm not from NYC, I'm not even from the americas but I really share your view on the subject.
I think that you will enjoy this link:
http://whywiccanssuck.com/
It's written by a wiccan so no offense intended...
->All
The problem as I see it is that people who call themselves pagans usually have a deep sentiment of being persecuted by other religions, commonly up to seeking out fundamentalist christians just to prove themselves right.
example
Saying that you are prosecuted by society for being a satanist, then torch a church get arrested and claim that as proof for persucation.
Then we have the whole issue of people who really are new-age (ie mix whatever you fancy right now) claim to be everything from asatru to druids to wiccan. Sometimes I feel that they think that life is a roleplaying game and by claiming to be a druid they will automatically & without research get the supernatural abilities ascribed to them...
If you are interested in older religion and neo versions thereof then here are some links:
http://www.runestone.org/flash/home.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/general.html
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml
http://www.friesian.com/elements.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook.html
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Re: Paganism
Religion tell us that paganism is worshiping an idol so logically christianity is paganism cause christians worship a cross.
and in the ten commandments one of them says that you should not worship a statue or any images.
and in the ten commandments one of them says that you should not worship a statue or any images.
Spoonist...you reminded me of something else about those Wicaans now that you mentioned it. Every one but one of them had played D&D and in fact the entire Wiccan circle was planning to run a game amongst themselves as a group. That is hilarious because that is another impression I got from them. They were frustrated D&D players who wished D&D were real and our lives were not.Sometimes I feel that they think that life is a roleplaying game and by claiming to be a druid they will automatically & without research get the supernatural abilities ascribed to them...
Thanks for the links, I definately want to check them out.
Wherever you go, there you are.
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Spoonist wrote:->Stravo
I'm not from NYC, I'm not even from the americas but I really share your view on the subject.
I think that you will enjoy this link:
http://whywiccanssuck.com/
It's written by a wiccan so no offense intended...
Actually, 4nongoths is a witch, and not a wiccan.
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Re: Paganism
I have no problem with neo-paganism. I personally don't mind any religion a person follows, so long as it does not involve harm to any other human being. As much as I dislike the idea of Satanism (for example) on religious grounds, if the person is rational and non-homicidal, I will discuss religion with person most certainly, but I won't try to condemn or judge the person. I have a couple Wiccan friends, along with quite a few Muslims and Jews (my school was definitely in a weird demographic zone).
Since when? We use a cross as a symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus, but that is all it is. Other than the Catholic crucifix, we don't even place an image of a living being on the cross. I've worshipped in churches where there are no crosses, and others where the only crosses are to the side, where they cannot be seen during the service. That hypothesis fails the test of experience.Montcalm wrote:Religion tell us that paganism is worshiping an idol so logically christianity is paganism cause christians worship a cross.
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If they're casual about it and honestly believe and are intelligent, more power to them.
Otherwise they're idiots, just like the other irrational theists.
Otherwise they're idiots, just like the other irrational theists.
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Does conviction that some alien lifeforms are capable of manipulating nature in near godlike fashion count as paganism? What about conviction that the universe is too insane and inconsistant to be anything but a bizzare simulation of universe created by aliens testing their ubertech?
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that reminds me of something i recently thought about:
i think one of these new UFO "religions" may become the next catholic church over the next millenia...be sure to tell your descendants to get ready for some oppression.
i think one of these new UFO "religions" may become the next catholic church over the next millenia...be sure to tell your descendants to get ready for some oppression.
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Oh, boy...
Wicked Pilot: Harde har har har....
ggs: paganism as in pre-Wicca. It is a very Celtic religion.
Zonk: correct.
Stravo: Paganism came by choice, not by a broken family. Although I do have one, I feel that my heart drew me to paganism, just as some people's hearts draw them to Christianity and Catholicism or Buddhism or any othr religion. And it is not for a thirst to believe, because I would go back to Catholicism before any other form of Christianity.
Lag: Although it IS popular for people to do that, that is not my case. I just wante dopinions on the religion itself, not really who was involved in it. But I should have made that more clear in the beginning.
Spoonist: Not once have I been persecuted by any other religion, and sometimes that is not the case of others. Mostly, it is persecution of atheists to the other religions, and it seems that there's really not so much that's bad about the pagan and Wiccan religion that people go for it rather than other religions.
Montcalm: Watch "Stigmata"
Stravo: Not once have I played D&D. Am I interested? Yes. Do I believe that a game can summon creatures and spells in our life, or that a game controls what would be a real world? No. It's like saying that Magic: The Gathering is real.
Pink Eye: Whatever is not false paganism. And its witch to a lot of goths and non goths. It's all a matter of preference.
Andrew J.: *thwap*
kojikun: definitely a possibilty, but I doubt it is a reliable theory.
UltraViolence83: Doubtful. Unless you mean a church for science people?
Wicked Pilot: Harde har har har....
ggs: paganism as in pre-Wicca. It is a very Celtic religion.
Zonk: correct.
Stravo: Paganism came by choice, not by a broken family. Although I do have one, I feel that my heart drew me to paganism, just as some people's hearts draw them to Christianity and Catholicism or Buddhism or any othr religion. And it is not for a thirst to believe, because I would go back to Catholicism before any other form of Christianity.
Lag: Although it IS popular for people to do that, that is not my case. I just wante dopinions on the religion itself, not really who was involved in it. But I should have made that more clear in the beginning.
Spoonist: Not once have I been persecuted by any other religion, and sometimes that is not the case of others. Mostly, it is persecution of atheists to the other religions, and it seems that there's really not so much that's bad about the pagan and Wiccan religion that people go for it rather than other religions.
Montcalm: Watch "Stigmata"
Stravo: Not once have I played D&D. Am I interested? Yes. Do I believe that a game can summon creatures and spells in our life, or that a game controls what would be a real world? No. It's like saying that Magic: The Gathering is real.
Pink Eye: Whatever is not false paganism. And its witch to a lot of goths and non goths. It's all a matter of preference.
Andrew J.: *thwap*
kojikun: definitely a possibilty, but I doubt it is a reliable theory.
UltraViolence83: Doubtful. Unless you mean a church for science people?
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