Structure of the observable universe for dummies.

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
SCVN 2812
Jedi Knight
Posts: 812
Joined: 2002-07-08 01:01am
Contact:

Structure of the observable universe for dummies.

Post by SCVN 2812 »

My astronomy course and my own investigations into the subject have raised a question in my mind that refuses to die out. For various reasons, I don't trust my instructor to adequately answer my question in layman's or other terms. My instructor comes off as an intelligent woman but is poorly equipped to explain scientific concepts to someone who is thoroughly right brained rather than left brained. My text does not shed any light on the subject either.

The model used by our instructor and the text for us to imagine the growth of the universe since the Big Bang is that of an inflating balloon with ants on the surface, representing galaxy clusters. As the universe (balloon) expands the ants are increasingly separated by the ever increasing surface area. My question is: keeping this layman's terms model in mind, is the universe hollow? I.e. according to the latest observations are all of the galaxies more or less on the same plane of this imaginary balloon with the center and everything below the "surface" hollow or are there "ants" / galaxies present throughout the structure and not just on the "surface"?

Obviously nothing is truly flat depending on the scale you are looking at it but when you look the grand scale, is our universe a filled sphere or a hollow bubble?
Image

"We at Yahoo have a lot of experience in helping people navigate an environment full of falsehoods, random useless information, and truly horrifying pornography. I don't think the human soul will hold any real surprises for us." - The Onion
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

Depending on what studies you prefer, the universe could very well be horn shaped.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Post by Surlethe »

In terms of simplistic models, think about rising bread dough with raisins inside. As the dough rises, the raisins get further and further apart.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
R. U. Serious
Padawan Learner
Posts: 282
Joined: 2005-08-17 05:29pm

Re: Structure of the observable universe for dummies.

Post by R. U. Serious »

SCVN 2812 wrote:My question is: keeping this layman's terms model in mind, is the universe hollow? I.e. according to the latest observations are all of the galaxies more or less on the same plane of this imaginary balloon with the center and everything below the "surface" hollow or are there "ants" / galaxies present throughout the structure and not just on the "surface"?
No, that's not part of the "intended metaphor". While the universe is sometimes called "flat", it means something else in that context, and is unrelated to the metaphor:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo ... .html#FLAT

I think you'll find that the FAQ will answer a lot of the questions you mgiht have about an expanding universe. Your misconception about the balloon metaphor is touched upon here:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/balloon0.html
and here:
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo ... q.html#XIN
Privacy is a transient notion. It started when people stopped believing that God could see everything and stopped when governments realized there was a vacancy to be filled. - Roger Needham
TheLemur
Padawan Learner
Posts: 204
Joined: 2007-03-27 09:36pm

Post by TheLemur »

is our universe a filled sphere or a hollow bubble?
According to general relativity, it is both possible to have a universe that is finite and unbounded (like a balloon's surface) and infinite and unbounded (like an infinite sheet of rubber). It is not possible to actually have a continuous "edge of the universe". The structure of the universe on a large scale is determined by the geometrical structure of spacetime, which is in turn determined by how much mass there is and any other basic properties of space.
I.e. according to the latest observations are all of the galaxies more or less on the same plane of this imaginary balloon with the center and everything below the "surface" hollow or are there "ants" / galaxies present throughout the structure and not just on the "surface"?
The "hollowness" of the "balloon" would only be apparent in a higher dimension; within three dimensions, all we can notice is that if you go in a straight line you return to your starting point. Essentially, the surface of the balloon is 3D, while "in" and "out" is another dimension. The "bread" model is three-dimensional; no higher dimensions are involved.
User avatar
SCVN 2812
Jedi Knight
Posts: 812
Joined: 2002-07-08 01:01am
Contact:

Post by SCVN 2812 »

So essentially if one were to take a cross section of the observable universe today, it would indeed be 3 dimensional on the grand scale rather than a shell and if you were to come back a few billion years later and take another cross section, it would still be 3 dimensional but the distance between galaxy clusters would have increased.
Image

"We at Yahoo have a lot of experience in helping people navigate an environment full of falsehoods, random useless information, and truly horrifying pornography. I don't think the human soul will hold any real surprises for us." - The Onion
User avatar
kheegster
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2397
Joined: 2002-09-14 02:29am
Location: An oasis in the wastelands of NJ

Post by kheegster »

SCVN 2812 wrote:So essentially if one were to take a cross section of the observable universe today, it would indeed be 3 dimensional on the grand scale rather than a shell and if you were to come back a few billion years later and take another cross section, it would still be 3 dimensional but the distance between galaxy clusters would have increased.
Yes. But you should realise that the distance between them is increasing not just because they are moving away from each other, but because space itself is stretching. Hence the idea of the homogeneous and isotropic universe.
Articles, opinions and rants from an astrophysicist: Cosmic Journeys
Post Reply