Interesting Plasma Weapon Concept

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Adrian Laguna
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Interesting Plasma Weapon Concept

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Plasma weapons are something of a staple of X-COM: UFO Defense (aka UFO: Enemy Unknown), as it is of much sci-fi. A modern freeware remake, which goes by the name of UFO: Alien Invasion also has plasma weapons. Now, we all know plasma is unrealistic as anything more than a blowtorch (incidentally, the "plasma blade" is pretty much that, and oversized blowtorch). However, I think their attempt at infusing some realism is rather original.

I'd say it's actually plausible and realistic, only suffering from the "too dammed complicated" syndrome.

Anyway, I wanted you guys to give me your opinions as to whether I'm correct, if it's as much bullshit as Babylon 5's PPGs, or somewhere in between.
When the aliens need a sidearm, they don't screw around.

This plasma pistol is a nasty piece of work, Commander. Its operation is extremely complex and inventive, requiring a great deal of technical skill to create. The power pack alone is hundreds of years ahead of our technology. It stores enough power to heat several charges of hydrogen to a plasmatic state inside the miniature fusion chamber, which are expelled as plasma using the ionised particles' own velocity.

Unlike human firearms, the projectiles themselves are not stored in a magazine or reservoir. They are generated inside the pistol from hydrogen contained in the magazine, powered by the magazine's power-pack. Once the plasma is heated, a thin film of liquid plastic is created between the two 'spinnerets' located vertically opposite each other in front of the grip. The plasma particles are then rapidly fired into the film so that the plastic deforms into an orb or 'bolt'. The plastic contains and protects the plasma, keeping it from dispersing until it reaches the target. By the time a bolt reaches the target, the inside of the plastic will be so eaten away that it will burst upon impact like a soap bubble, splashing its payload across the target. The maximum range of a pistol bolt -- the point it can reach before the plasma eats into open air and disperses -- is approximately 20 metres.

A bolt fired from the plasma pistol is so hot that even a near-miss can be lethal. The effects on a victim are truly horrific; I will try to list them all here.

Any unarmoured human sprayed with this plasma will suffer extreme pain and injuries all across the splash zone. Adipose (fatty) tissue will melt like water. Blood and other bodily fluids boil in place. The plasma will actually eat its way into a human body, causing bone-deep charring in a large region around the splash zone. A large chunk of the body will be literally burnt to a crisp.

Any kind of tough fabric will provide some protection against a plasma hit. High-tech armour in particular will disperse the heat as best it can, and will resist the burning plasma for a time. Hopefully this will be enough time to allow air-cooling to take place, bringing the plasma down to non-lethal temperatures.

I won't pretend to know how the aliens managed to squeeze all this stuff into a pistol, but it does look as though they've made the same tradeoffs between power and size that we have done with our handguns. It's almost certain that larger, more powerful versions of these weapons exist and will appear against us in this war. However, my team and I have figured out the control scheme of the pistols, and we've written an appropriate field manual for human use. Our soldiers will now be able to employ the plasma pistol in a combat scenario as they would any other weapon.

--Cdr. Navarre
and...
ommander, here's my report on our alien plasma rifle research.

At its most basic level, the plasma rifle is little more than an upscaled version of the plasma pistol. However, as any firearms fanatic will tell you, pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. Handguns are small, personal defence weapons. Rifles are weapons of war. The disparity in power is remarkable.

Rifle plasma is over 20% hotter than pistol plasma and capable of burning through even heavy armour. The plastic globes containing the rifle's plasma shots are much thicker than the pistol's, only beginning to disintegrate at distances between 80-100m. This is a short maximum range for a general-purpose assault rifle, but ideal for urban infantry engagements and other close-quarters work. The bolts do not suffer from projectile drop and they're far too massive to be affected by wind conditions. This makes the plasma rifle highly accurate at all ranges.

The scariest new feature of this weapon is the fact that it is capable of automatic fire. Its rate of fire on full-auto may not be very high -- approx. 180 rounds per minute -- and the recoil is difficult to handle, but it more than makes up for these failings with sheer power. Two or three solid plasma rifle hits are usually all it takes to kill a human in light or medium-grade armour. An unarmoured soldier has no hope at all.

We've figured out the controls on the rifle and written up a manual for field use. Our troops should be able to make good use of it.

There can be no doubt that this weapon was designed and manufactured for war, and not in any defensive capacity. The aliens clearly know armed conflict very well. The rifle's power and lethality do not imply that they invaded us because of some mistake or misunderstanding. They came to Earth with a plan, Commander, and that really scares me.

--Cdr. Navarre

So, thoughts?
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Post by Darth Wong »

How is this any less retarded than any other plasma weapon scheme? It just relies upon that old sci-fi standby: magic material. This time it's a plastic bubble which can be formed inside the gun and somehow instantly solidified and cooled while magically injecting high-pressure high-temperature plasma into it, and then shot out of the gun where it can withstand the plasma heating for long enough that the obvious question becomes: why don't people build armour out of this magic plastic material? Sure, it's only in the bubble for fractions of a second, but that's also true of the bolt hitting something; it only strikes for fractions of a second.

A laser would still be far more effective, given that level of technology, miniaturization, and energy storage.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Darth Wong wrote:How is this any less retarded than any other plasma weapon scheme? It just relies upon that old sci-fi standby: magic material. This time it's a plastic bubble which can be formed inside the gun and somehow instantly solidified and cooled while magically injecting high-pressure high-temperature plasma into it, and then shot out of the gun where it can withstand the plasma heating for long enough that the obvious question becomes: why don't people build armour out of this magic plastic material? Sure, it's only in the bubble for fractions of a second, but that's also true of the bolt hitting something; it only strikes for fractions of a second.
No, the old sci-fi stand-by is that they plasma holds itself together for no apparent reason. A magical material is somewhat more plausible, at least it acknowledges that plasma doesn't hold itself together naturally. The rest of your criticisms make sense though. The description does say it requires a few shots to get through armour, but the plastic shell is paper-thin and armour plates could be half an inch thick.
A laser would still be far more effective, given that level of technology, miniaturization, and energy storage.
In game human built lasers and shotguns are pretty much equal in effectiveness to the alien's plasma rifle.
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Post by Ariphaos »

Adrian Laguna wrote:No, the old sci-fi stand-by is that they plasma holds itself together for no apparent reason. A magical material is somewhat more plausible, at least it acknowledges that plasma doesn't hold itself together naturally. The rest of your criticisms make sense though. The description does say it requires a few shots to get through armour, but the plastic shell is paper-thin and armour plates could be half an inch thick.
Thing is, this obviously very thin shell would make excellent ablative armor, and it would take a lot more than a few shots to burn through an aerogel-style sponge of the stuff.
In game human built lasers and shotguns are pretty much equal in effectiveness to the alien's plasma rifle.
Stupid Alien Syndrome strikes yet another sci-fi setting.

...in fact, it would probably take more than a few shots to burn through an aerogel-style sponge -anyway-, which means the humans are stupid too.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Plasma weapons in sci-fi are kind of like a religious belief: when you argue with people about them, they keep trying to find a convoluted way back to the same outcome, just like a creationist will always twist and break logic and science in order to find his way back to the same conclusion he started with. In both cases, there is a powerful desire to accomodate that conclusion, regardless of how stupid it is.

Why not just give up on the whole fucking "plasma weapon" idea? I'm so sick of even hearing the word "plasma" in a sci-fi setting.
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Post by brianeyci »

That "modern freeware remake" looks awful from the screenshots. The XCOM soldiers look like SWAT, and bringing realism to XCOM totally ignores its point. It's like how Fallout Tactics brought more "realism" to their weapons, ruining the idea of wacked crazy shit from FO1 and bringing in a whole bunch of gun nuts. XCOM even shipped with a comic book. The soldiers should not look like starship troopers. They should look like 50's sci-fi alien hunters, like terror from the deep soldiers or the original x-com armor. In the original game plasma weapons are clearly superior to laser weapons. Lasers are only better because they take no ammunition.

As for the solid balls of plasma, I won't comment except to say it doesn't sound as original as you make it. The first thing I thought of to explain plasma weapons personally was a solid ball containing plasma, and the next forcefields. Of course once I learned what plasma was, I discarded both ideas instantly, and just decided to forget explaining plasma weapons at all, since they don't make any sense. If I can think of it, no doubt many people have thought of it.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Xeriar wrote:Thing is, this obviously very thin shell would make excellent ablative armor, and it would take a lot more than a few shots to burn through an aerogel-style sponge of the stuff.
An aerogel sponge would be useless against solid bullets. You have to defend against that too.

Regardless, I was agreeing with Wong, if a paper-thin shell can withstand the plasma for a few fractions of a second, then a much thicker armour plate will be borderline immune.
Stupid Alien Syndrome strikes yet another sci-fi setting.
Actually the aliens acting stupid is something of a plot point. The characters who give you the briefing sometimes wonder why the Aliens are coming piecemeal and why they're not deploying their heavier (particle beam) weapons more often.
Darth Wong wrote:Plasma weapons in sci-fi are kind of like a religious belief: when you argue with people about them, they keep trying to find a convoluted way back to the same outcome.
Well, in this case it is a remake of a game from the 90s. It wouldn't be the same without the Aliens shooting glowy blue balls. Yes it is a stupid explanation, sorry I was blinded by the fact that I love that game.
Why not just give up on the whole fucking "plasma weapon" idea? I'm so sick of even hearing the word "plasma" in a sci-fi setting.
As Star Wars shows us, no explanation is better than a bullshit explanation. :wink:
brianeyci wrote:That "modern freeware remake" looks awful from the screenshots. The XCOM soldiers look like SWAT, and bringing realism to XCOM totally ignores its point. It's like how Fallout Tactics brought more "realism" to their weapons, ruining the idea of wacked crazy shit from FO1 and bringing in a whole bunch of gun nuts. XCOM even shipped with a comic book. The soldiers should not look like starship troopers. They should look like 50's sci-fi alien hunters, like terror from the deep soldiers or the original x-com armor.
It looks awesome in my opinion (they're using the Quake 2 engine). It's still incomplete but I love the look, and more importantly the way it plays. I can't play the original any more, the gameplay of the new one is clearly superior. It's much smoother, it feels more like real tactical combat, and the human weapons are awesomer. Unfortunately because UFO:AI is still incomplete the battle scape sucks, and many important elements are still missing. I don't care much though, it's fun.

I like the look of the PHALANX men as opposed to the original XCOM men (their name's better too!), now they have functional-looking clothes instead of skin-tight suits. SWAT type armour makes perfect sense, the armour is designed like that for a reason, and I would expect that those reasons are still valid 2080. In any case that's just the very first suit of armour, you get better stuff later on (though there's still much to be implemented).

I also like that they are trying hard to infuse some realism into it (they got rid of the minigun), even if they are failing in some regards it enhances my gaming experience.
In the original game plasma weapons are clearly superior to laser weapons. Lasers are only better because they take no ammunition.
They made the lasers use ammunition in the new game, more realistic that way. Though now that I remember I'm playing with modded lasers, dunno how the unmodded lasers compare to plasma weapons.
As for the solid balls of plasma, I won't comment except to say it doesn't sound as original as you make it.
I had never seen that explanation before, so at least to me it's original.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Wong wrote:Plasma weapons in sci-fi are kind of like a religious belief: when you argue with people about them, they keep trying to find a convoluted way back to the same outcome, just like a creationist will always twist and break logic and science in order to find his way back to the same conclusion he started with. In both cases, there is a powerful desire to accomodate that conclusion, regardless of how stupid it is.

Why not just give up on the whole fucking "plasma weapon" idea? I'm so sick of even hearing the word "plasma" in a sci-fi setting.
What about using plasma as a sort of Explosive Reactive Armour? Having projectors along the hull that flush a cloud of plasma when an incoming railgun round or missile is detected at point-blank range, strong enough to destroy/detonate the projectile before it impacts the hull? Then no containment is necessary or even desirable.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:What about using plasma as a sort of Explosive Reactive Armour? Having projectors along the hull that flush a cloud of plasma when an incoming railgun round or missile is detected at point-blank range, strong enough to destroy/detonate the projectile before it impacts the hull? Then no containment is necessary or even desirable.
A point-defense laser would be far more logical and efficient. The vast majority of the energy of such a device would be expended uselessly into space, and if you detonate the missile so close to your own hull, you're probably screwed anyway.
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Post by Ariphaos »

Adrian Laguna wrote:An aerogel sponge would be useless against solid bullets. You have to defend against that too.
It weighs next to nothing and yet stops attacks like this. For the cost of a slight amount of bulk.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: What about using plasma as a sort of Explosive Reactive Armour? Having projectors along the hull that flush a cloud of plasma when an incoming railgun round or missile is detected at point-blank range, strong enough to destroy/detonate the projectile before it impacts the hull? Then no containment is necessary or even desirable.
The only use I've found for plasma in combat is that it's a great way to partially deflect lasers. You will need to have quite a chemical mix, but if you have a sort of ablative, paint that quickly plasmifies and can be magnetically bound to the hull, you can defeat the pulsed laser by keeping the material it vaporizes trapped in place, while it fluoresces and proceeds to scatter the laser, and requiring less heat for you to dissipate (assuming the magnetic field is efficient enough).

'shields', in a sense, if temporary and only reactive.

Above and beyond the problems of missiles in space in the first place, insulating them is cheap, mass-wise, and since their lifespan is intentionally short, you aren't concerned about its inevitable heat death. Even lasers are a bit suspect - better to hit them with something.
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Post by brianeyci »

I also like that they are trying hard to infuse some realism into it (they got rid of the minigun), even if they are failing in some regards it enhances my gaming experience.
Minigun? You mean heavy autocannon?

Realism is a dual edged sword. Realism ruins theme in some cases. Case in point, having realistic Newtonian fighter combat in Star Wars would ruin its theme. It would make Luke and Rogue Squadron look stupid for not using their thrusters to whirl around and paste Vader. Trying to bring realism into the XCOM series is awful, particularly realism to bring it into modern grit, as if grit meant better names and more real armor rather than real personalities. I suppose they're replacing all the generic names with "real" gun names. No thanks.

When I think of badly done realism, I think of something like the DOOM movie. Demons from hell isn't realistic enough, so they put in genetic engineering and turn it into a RE knockoff.
I had never seen that explanation before, so at least to me it's original.
How do you contain a gas? When I first wanted an ad-hoc explanation for plasma weapons, I thought of a hollow ball containing the plasma. Maybe it's original for people who have no training in science at all, because I remember containing a gas in a beaker in Grade Nine.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I suppose the problem with plasma is that by the time you reach the heights of unobtanium and magic tech which are required for it to be effective, you might as well use that technology to build something else.

Hell, if you can design a plastic case like the OP describes which can be projected liquid and solidify in form in a microsecond, and withstand the energy of a highly energetic ball of plasma for even a fraction of a second, then why couldn't you use that technology to instead, for instance, take a massive steel slug with a backing of such plastic, and integrate it with an anti-matter initiated fusion bomb as a single shell--and a graphite layer below that as a backup--and load the thing in a massive cannon? The interior would be automatically sprayed with the uber-plastic sealant, and then the bomb initiated. It would literally be an atomic cannon, and even with low-hundreds-of-megaton devices only would be able to deliver hundreds of petajoules to the steel slug, while the vapourization of the plastic layer behind it would create an awesome reactive thrust.

That's a pretty ludicrous piece of engineering, but it still makes more sense than simply filling a plastic ball with plasma.
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Post by Darth Wong »

At some point, you'd think sci-fi authors would realize that the KISS principle should apply in the future as much as it applies today.
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Post by brianeyci »

I don't think it's really the problem of authors. Authors don't spend time concocting explanations for their technology. Science fiction isn't science, it's about people affected by science.

No, it's definitely the fans. The fans, who have too much time on their hands and don't have to worry about more important things like character or plot so they worry about the nuts and bolts. The best idea is that it's called a plasma weapon when it's really not -- maybe the weapon utilizes plasma in its firing mechanism somehow, like how Arnold mentioned 40 watts. I assume the 40 watts refers to the battery, or something else.

But the fans insist on figuring out some mechanism, even if it doesn't make sense, all in the name of "realism." Bah.
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Post by rhoenix »

Darth Wong wrote:At some point, you'd think sci-fi authors would realize that the KISS principle should apply in the future as much as it applies today.
For what this is worth, I tried repeatedly to dodge the way physics laughs derisively at the plasma weapon concept when working on my scifi story idea, without success.

So, for the scifi tech I was working on, I simply replaced the gun with a hybrid coilgun/railgun that fires self-guided shells containing quantities of antimatter.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Want plasma? Look at the Bolo novels. Fusing cryo-hydrogen at a few million degrees flying out at a good fraction of lightspeed. It's the best you'll get, because it's simply a fusion beam that doesn't have time to disperse before it hits something, even better with a targeting laser clearing a tunnel in atmosphere.

That's essentially a particle weapon, only without protons or electrons being the sole source of KE and heat, you've got plasma instead.

Anything else requires magick.
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Post by AMX »

FWIW, my personal idea of "plasma weapon": A particle beam weapon firing a mix of ions and electrons with a net charge of zero (i.e., plasma), called "plasma <insert size-related noun>" to distinguish it from other types of PBW (firing ions/neutrons/electrons/etc and named accordingly).
Of course, that won't produce glowy floaty orbs, but those don't make sense no matter how the gun is supposed to work, anyway.


re the OP: Well, I think they actually made the things even less realistic than they originally were...

Also:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Well, in this case it is a remake of a game from the 90s. It wouldn't be the same without the Aliens shooting glowy blue balls. Yes it is a stupid explanation, sorry I was blinded by the fact that I love that game.
I'm very sure the plasma weapons in UFO fired green beams, not blue balls.
(You may ba thinking of stun bombs, IIRC.)
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

brianeyci wrote:Minigun? You mean heavy autocannon?
It looked and acted like a minigun, you know with revolving cannons. I think they kept it for multiplayer, as the model was already done when the guy who started to steer the game toward a more down to Earth flavour came on board.
Trying to bring realism into the XCOM series is awful, particularly realism to bring it into modern grit, as if grit meant better names and more real armor rather than real personalities.
*shrug* I think it improves the game, because it feels more like I'm really fighting a desperate war against alien invaders. However, the realism is really of secondary importance, if they had gone with cool gadgets I'd still like it better than the original. The gameplay is just superior in every way (well, you can't destroy walls... yet).
I suppose they're replacing all the generic names with "real" gun names. No thanks.
Only if you bother to read the UFOpedia, which is entirely optional. In the load-out screens you see generic things like "assault rifle", "flamethrower", and "grenade launcher". If you do read the the in-depth documents, you find out that, for example, the flamethrower is Iranian in design and called the ADA 22 (nicknamed 'The Torch of God' by Alliance troops). It also says its flame reaches 1700 degrees celcius, but since it uses gas fuel rather than liquid it has been deemed "safe" for urban operations.
When I think of badly done realism, I think of something like the DOOM movie. Demons from hell isn't realistic enough, so they put in genetic engineering and turn it into a RE knockoff.
Well, I think UFO:AI has excellently done realism. Even if it's spotty in places I think their attempts are worthy of praise, because like I said I feel they improve the feel of the game considerably. If you do not like it, that's fine, don't play it. This is entertainment, it's to be expected not everyone is going to like it, let alone fall in love as I have.
How do you contain a gas? When I first wanted an ad-hoc explanation for plasma weapons, I thought of a hollow ball containing the plasma. Maybe it's original for people who have no training in science at all, because I remember containing a gas in a beaker in Grade Nine.
Yes it's an obvious solution, but nobody uses it, not B5, not Star Trek, not Homeworld, not any other instance of plasma weapon usage I've ever seen. It still doesn't work, but it's better than "oh it just holds together naturally" which is what everyone else does, with maybe some allusion to a magnetic field. Beam weapons being invisible is something that happens in real life, yet Blakes 7's energy guns may be called original because it's the only sci-fi TV show that acutally reflected reality.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

AMX wrote:
Adrian Laguna wrote:Well, in this case it is a remake of a game from the 90s. It wouldn't be the same without the Aliens shooting glowy blue balls. Yes it is a stupid explanation, sorry I was blinded by the fact that I love that game.
I'm very sure the plasma weapons in UFO fired green beams, not blue balls.
(You may ba thinking of stun bombs, IIRC.)
Green beams were tachyon weapons, they've bee renamed particle beam weapons in the remake.
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Post by AMX »

Adrian Laguna wrote:Green beams were tachyon weapons, they've bee renamed particle beam weapons in the remake.
Are you drunk?
There's exactly one tachyon weapon in the published X-Com games, and that's the nonlethal Tachyon Pulser in Interceptor; in fact, the only time the word "tachyon" was used in the "big three" (UFO, TFTD, APOC) was during the TFTD intro.
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Post by rhoenix »

I'll go with AMX on this one. That I recall (and I played both XCOM: UFO Defense and XCOM: Terror from the Deep rather obsessively for a while), in the original XCOM: UFO Defense game, there were no tachyon weapons. The aliens' weaponry was all Plasma-based.

In TFTD, the alien's weapons were all sonic in nature. Again, that I can recall, there were no tachyon weapons.

Even with that said Adrian Laguna, your point does stand - and I'm waiting semi-patiently for a Mac OS X PPC version of UFO: AI to be released.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Yes it seems I've made a mistake. Happens with old games.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I suppose the problem with plasma is that by the time you reach the heights of unobtanium and magic tech which are required for it to be effective, you might as well use that technology to build something else.

Hell, if you can design a plastic case like the OP describes which can be projected liquid and solidify in form in a microsecond, and withstand the energy of a highly energetic ball of plasma for even a fraction of a second, then why couldn't you use that technology to instead, for instance, take a massive steel slug with a backing of such plastic, and integrate it with an anti-matter initiated fusion bomb as a single shell--and a graphite layer below that as a backup--and load the thing in a massive cannon? The interior would be automatically sprayed with the uber-plastic sealant, and then the bomb initiated. It would literally be an atomic cannon, and even with low-hundreds-of-megaton devices only would be able to deliver hundreds of petajoules to the steel slug, while the vapourization of the plastic layer behind it would create an awesome reactive thrust.

That's a pretty ludicrous piece of engineering, but it still makes more sense than simply filling a plastic ball with plasma.
Or, use that same amount of energy to launch a slug at very high velocities for a very effective kinetic-kill weapon. Push the concept just a bit further and you have the R-bomb —a slug pushed to any appreciable fraction of c to deliver the punch of an asteroid strike in a very small package.
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Lord of the Abyss
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

brianeyci wrote:The best idea is that it's called a plasma weapon when it's really not -- maybe the weapon utilizes plasma in its firing mechanism somehow, like how Arnold mentioned 40 watts.
Like plasma rifles in Steve Perry's Matador books. They don't shoot plasma; they use an extremely powerful capacitor to turn, say, water into a plasma, and the expanding plasma is the propellant for a bullet.

As for using plasma itself as a weapon; there's the Bolo Hellbore idea mentioned above of shooting so fast it lacks the time to dissipate. There's the idea of confining the plasma bolt in a self generated electromagnetic field or scifi force field; not that silly, just hi-tech lightning balls. Or the magnetically confined "plasma whip" type weapon; like the Machines used in one of Gregory Benford's novels to attack nearby human vessels that irritated them ( and if it's good enough for a plasma physicist, it's good enough for me :wink: )
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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

Why even try to make a plasma weapon? What possible advantage is there in a weapon which pisses away its energy constantly by radiating it away in all directions as it flies through space and which must be contained in an incredibly powerful super-tech forcefield in order to achieve sufficient density to do any damage?
Lord of the Abyss wrote:As for using plasma itself as a weapon; there's the Bolo Hellbore idea mentioned above of shooting so fast it lacks the time to dissipate. There's the idea of confining the plasma bolt in a self generated electromagnetic field or scifi force field; not that silly, just hi-tech lightning balls.
Wrong. A self-generated plasma containment field is total bullshit. Citing some freaky atmospheric effect as proof of the concept is the king of all red herrings.
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