Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

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Shrykull
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Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by Shrykull »

I'm working on a site as to why cigarettes should be taken off the market here's what I have sofar, and some pro smoking arguments, which I already have some rebuttals to, just want to see what you guys think/think of, still have a lot of research to do:
Once upon a time, a man walked carefully through the woods, carrying a bow and arrow on a hunting trip for his tribe. He had tracked the deer for hours now, even managed to find it, but he missed, it ran away and now he was back on it’s trail. The sun was setting and the first snows had started two months ago, and now it was the dead of winter and he was freezing. He knew he would need warmth and he would need to build a fire. He gathered some sticks and leaves, some fallen logs which he was fortunate to find and made a ring of rocks. He put the leaves on the bottom, took a stick and started drilling the end into one of the logs, after much effort the log started to give a little smoke, then more then it finally came alight. He took it and ignited the leaves with it, the leaves caught fire, then the kindling caught fire and then finally the logs, he was now warm.
Suddenly a wind blew one of the leaves out toward the man, startled, he jumped and it landed next to him, he put his face to it, and caught a wiff of the smoke coming from it, this smoke had a pleasant aroma, from these kind of leaves, he started inhaling more of it, and enjoyed it. He ignited another leave, rolled it and inhaled the smoke. He would soon relay this message to his tribe. For the caveman, he didn’t know any better that the smoke was though so pleasant, was so harmful. For him, ignorance was bliss…………….

We Don’t have that Excuse!!

Every year hundreds of thousands of people die of cigarette smoke, mostly firsthand and some secondhand. The hazard has been known for decades. Yet, WHY is it a cancer causing gum is taken off the market, but not a product that causes MANY types of cancer and also many other diseases? Why is that we must watch our loved ones suffer on a respirator while the cigarette companies get rich and profit from it. Why is that they allowed to put an addictive additive into their cigarettes that is sometimes used to kill insects and will be taken into their lungs? Why is it that children must be in presence of a substance which produces 10 times the pollution of a diesel engine for a parent’s addictive pleasure? How many tax dollars must be wasted on health care for people to rot their lungs? How many more people have to die, until we get the message that cigarettes must go? Yes, It’s time we made smoking history, and get cigarettes OFF the market!
Pro Smoking Arguments I've heard

1. It's my life, fuck off and mind your own business, leave me alone, it's my right.

2. You're going to die anyway.

3. If we have to get rid of cigarettes, we also have to get rid of everything else that causes harm. How about McDonalds? How about Caffeine? How about skateboards?

4. I can't believe people complain about second hand smoke, but not auto emissions!

5. I should have the right to let my establishment patrons smoke if they want to, if you don't like it, don't come in my establishment (here in Massachusetts, smoking is banned in any public place, (restaurants, bars, etc)

6. Yes, smokers do cause taxpayers to pay lots of money to healthcare, but if everyone stopped smoking, eventually we'd be paying for all the non smokers who would live longer and ultimately require more money for healthcare.

7. If cigarette smoke causes so much harm, then why in the 50's when most men smoked, were thier lower sickness and fatality rates among thier wives?

8. I don't blow smoke in my children's faces!

9. You'll like this one: Once I heard about a girl, who to mask the smoke on her breath, sprayed hairspray or something into her mouth to mask it. She wouldn't have to do this if the school allowed smoking (Actually, in the 70's at least some high schools did have smoking lounges, not sure now. Though I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. If it's illegal for minors to smoke, why would it be allowed in school?)
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Re: Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by Darth Tanner »

Just my two cents
1. It's my life, fuck off and mind your own business, leave me alone, it's my right.
Sure, but your actually chemically addicted to taking that drug, if it came in a white powdery from it would be illegal. Also it stops being your business when you start polluting everyone elses air with your fumes.
2. You're going to die anyway.
True for everything, should we all take cyanide?
3. If we have to get rid of cigarettes, we also have to get rid of everything else that causes harm. How about McDonalds? How about Caffeine? How about skateboards?
And skateboards cause cancer how? Many things are bad for you in excess smoking is bad for you regardless of level of consumption.
4. I can't believe people complain about second hand smoke, but not auto emissions!
Banning cars would cause the immediate collapse of modern civilization. Would that happen with banning cigarettes? Also most people dont bring their internal combustion engines into their homes to spray their loved ones with poison gas.
5. I should have the right to let my establishment patrons smoke if they want to, if you don't like it, don't come in my establishment (here in Massachusetts, smoking is banned in any public place, (restaurants, bars, etc)
And perhaps people should be allowed to have signs up saying 'no blacks' if people don't like it they don't have to come in right? No. Your providing a public service, that means you have to be able to serve the public safely. Also should people be able to run a public service with dangerous substances like asbestos present?
6. Yes, smokers do cause taxpayers to pay lots of money to health care, but if everyone stopped smoking, eventually we'd be paying for all the non smokers who would live longer and ultimately require more money for healthcare.
So if we instigate murder squads to kill people off to lower the tax bill that would be ok? Smokers also take up a lot of money treating their lung cancer.
7. If cigarette smoke causes so much harm, then why in the 50's when most men smoked, were their lower sickness and fatality rates among their wives?
Who knows? probably because they spent so little time with their wives.
8. I don't blow smoke in my children's faces!
You don't have to, second hand smoke is invisible so doing it in the same room is nearly as bad as blowing it in their faces. Your still killing them.
9. You'll like this one: Once I heard about a girl, who to mask the smoke on her breath, sprayed hairspray or something into her mouth to mask it.
Some drugged up scum do nasty things to pay for their next fix. If the state gave out drugs on the street for free they wouldn't have to rob people right?
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Post by bilateralrope »

7. If cigarette smoke causes so much harm, then why in the 50's when most men smoked, were thier lower sickness and fatality rates among thier wives?
Is this one even true ?

I suggest you hunt down the actual numbers.
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Re: Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by PeZook »

Shrykull wrote: Pro Smoking Arguments I've heard

1. It's my life, fuck off and mind your own business, leave me alone, it's my right.
Suicide cults should be allowed by this logic - after all, it's their own life, right? Frankly, there a lot of things that are harmful to society as a whole that you are not allowed to do. And,of course, it stops being your business if you're polluting a public space.

Shrykull wrote:2. You're going to die anyway.
Yes, yes. Therefore...what? It's a non-argument.
Shrykull wrote:3. If we have to get rid of cigarettes, we also have to get rid of everything else that causes harm. How about McDonalds? How about Caffeine? How about skateboards?
No, we don't have to get rid of everything else that causes harm. It doesn't logically follow.
Shrykull wrote:4. I can't believe people complain about second hand smoke, but not auto emissions!
They do complain about car emissions. This doesn't make second-hand smoke harmless.
Shrykull wrote:5. I should have the right to let my establishment patrons smoke if they want to, if you don't like it, don't come in my establishment (here in Massachusetts, smoking is banned in any public place, (restaurants, bars, etc)
Justify this. Remember you employ people like waiter, kitchen staff etc. who don't necessarily smoke ; Should you have to right to expose them to second hand smoke every day for hours, because you feel like it?
Shrykull wrote:6. Yes, smokers do cause taxpayers to pay lots of money to healthcare, but if everyone stopped smoking, eventually we'd be paying for all the non smokers who would live longer and ultimately require more money for healthcare.
Justify this with calculations, please, or give a source.
Shrykull wrote:7. If cigarette smoke causes so much harm, then why in the 50's when most men smoked, were thier lower sickness and fatality rates among thier wives?
Proof?
Shrykull wrote:8. I don't blow smoke in my children's faces!
Good for you. You're still killing them.
Shrykull wrote:9. You'll like this one: Once I heard about a girl, who to mask the smoke on her breath, sprayed hairspray or something into her mouth to mask it. She wouldn't have to do this if the school allowed smoking (Actually, in the 70's at least some high schools did have smoking lounges, not sure now. Though I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. If it's illegal for minors to smoke, why would it be allowed in school?)
Yeah, and if driving drunk would be allowed, no drunks would run from police in high-speed chases. Actually, corruption would be non-existent if we just eliminated the police and let people do whatever the hell they want! Brilliant!
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Re: Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by Shrykull »

5. I should have the right to let my establishment patrons smoke if they want to, if you don't like it, don't come in my establishment (here in Massachusetts, smoking is banned in any public place, (restaurants, bars, etc)

And perhaps people should be allowed to have signs up saying 'no blacks' if people don't like it they don't have to come in right? No. Your providing a public service, that means you have to be able to serve the public safely. Also should people be able to run a public service with dangerous substances like asbestos present?
I did actually have an idiot say that, yes they should be allowed to have asbestos in thier establishment, or even a dog crapping on the floor, I'm not kidding. I should have recorded it, it was on paltalk.
6. Yes, smokers do cause taxpayers to pay lots of money to health care, but if everyone stopped smoking, eventually we'd be paying for all the non smokers who would live longer and ultimately require more money for healthcare.

So if we instigate murder squads to kill people off to lower the tax bill that would be ok? Smokers also take up a lot of money treating their lung cancer.
I'm not even sure this is true, I heard a claim but no figures to back it up. Someone who has never smoked and never been exposed to second hand smoke (much, at least) I don't think would require the multitude of services for the plethora of cancers and diseases they would develop, that smokers would, no chemo, radiation, hormone therapy[/quote]

I can proudly say, honestly, I've never taken a drag in my life :)[/quote]
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Re: Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by Darth Raptor »

1. It's my life, fuck off and mind your own business, leave me alone, it's my right.
*yawn* Your ability to swing your arms ends where my face begins. While there is a lot of self-abuse out there that harms no one but the practicioner, smoking ain't one of them. When I have to choke on your poison, it becomes my business.
2. You're going to die anyway.
Yeah, so? It still behooves us all to ensure that our "inevitable" deaths are as painless as possible. And to ensure that the qualities of our "finite" lives are optimized. Seriously, what a half-assed argument.
3. If we have to get rid of cigarettes, we also have to get rid of everything else that causes harm. How about McDonalds? How about Caffeine? How about skateboards?


False analogies ahoy. Caffeine and McDonalds, unlike smoked tobacco, only harms the user and only in excess. Skateboards can be enjoyed in a responsible manner that harms absolutely no one.
4. I can't believe people complain about second hand smoke, but not auto emissions!
People *do* complain about ICE emissions, but that's still irrelevant. The classic "A is not bad because B is even worse!" falacy. Trying to deflect criticism by changing the subject is seven distinct kinds of fail.
5. I should have the right to let my establishment patrons smoke if they want to, if you don't like it, don't come in my establishment (here in Massachusetts, smoking is banned in any public place, (restaurants, bars, etc)
And as long as you have absolutely *no* employees aside from yourself, I'm okay with that. But once your business is large enough to demand a payroll of employees, we exit Libertarian Dreamland and make an abrupt turn into IRL, where very few people work because they like their jobs.
6. Yes, smokers do cause taxpayers to pay lots of money to healthcare, but if everyone stopped smoking, eventually we'd be paying for all the non smokers who would live longer and ultimately require more money for healthcare.
Completely made up, unsubstantiated bullshit claim.
7. If cigarette smoke causes so much harm, then why in the 50's when most men smoked, were thier lower sickness and fatality rates among thier wives?
A can make up facts too. Mine are likely more plausible to boot. Statements like these are obviously irrelevant unless they back them up.
8. I don't blow smoke in my children's faces!


My mom blows smoke in my face when I complain about the smoke that she wafts my way unintentionally. For every anecdote you can come up with, I can come up with two.
9. You'll like this one: Once I heard about a girl, who to mask the smoke on her breath, sprayed hairspray or something into her mouth to mask it. She wouldn't have to do this if the school allowed smoking (Actually, in the 70's at least some high schools did have smoking lounges, not sure now. Though I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. If it's illegal for minors to smoke, why would it be allowed in school?)
If you're poisoning yourself with hairspray, at least you aren't poisoning me.
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Post by Cairber »

I always find the most recent report on second hand smoke from the surgeon general to be really useful:

link


It is very useful for combating the "I don't blow smoke in my children's faces!" one (because it talks about how even small exposure is harmful and also how even smoke on someone's breath can be harmful to an infant) and, of course, any arguments on health.
Say NO to circumcision IT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.

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health cigarette?

Post by Shrykull »

Is there any such thing as a healthy cigarette? Herbal ones, or something else other than tobacco? My Junior year history teacher in high school who smoked proposed this, instead of the outright banning of tobacco.

I once saw this thing advertizing old indian (native american) natural tobacco. Natural doesn't mean it's good for you! Snake Venom is natural too!

I heard someone say once that smoking anything will have you inhaling tar, which I'm not sure of, but smoking anything will have you inhaling carbon monoxide, though if this is true, incense is just as bad for you as smoking anything.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

Deliberately inhaling smoke is always a bad idea, whether you're burning tobacco, petroleum, incense or cupcakes. Just because you're banning (or heavily restricting) the use of smoked tobacco doesn't necessarily demand similar proscriptions on chewing tobacco et al. Some of the smoker-apologist arguments like "it's my business!" or "I'm not hurting you!" actually become true when you remove the smoke from the equation. It's like someone drinking their piss in the privacy of their own home versus advocating taking a piss in a public swimming pool.
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Post by Shrykull »

Darth Raptor wrote:Deliberately inhaling smoke is always a bad idea, whether you're burning tobacco, petroleum, incense or cupcakes. Just because you're banning (or heavily restricting) the use of smoked tobacco doesn't necessarily demand similar proscriptions on chewing tobacco et al. Some of the smoker-apologist arguments like "it's my business!" or "I'm not hurting you!" actually become true when you remove the smoke from the equation. It's like someone drinking their piss in the privacy of their own home versus advocating taking a piss in a public swimming pool.
Guess you must really hate second hand smoke. And, I guess you still live with your folks, as do I. And, I despise it. My mother smokes as well, I want her to quit.

There was this sub shop someone told me about where they would actually smoke while they were making your food, I used to like it until I stopped going there for this reason (someone told me, and the place was a little run down, so it seemed reasonable)

But..........it may be difficult to avoid sometimes. When I have my own place I will definitely ask smokers to wash thier hands when coming in from a smoke. I'd actually like to ask them to take a shower, garble some mouthwash and wash thier face. I wondered if it would it would going too far telling them not to smoke (and come back in after it) because I may be able to handle the smell, but the saliva mixed with smoke that's on thier hands, when they touch things (Hmm, maybe I could wash the faucet)

Guess you get an idea how much I don't like second hand smoke.

In AD&D I made this necromancy spell created by me, a necromancer called smoker's bane. Anyone who has ever smoked first hand in thier life, lungs fills with mucus and viscera which suffocates them. :twisted:
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Post by NoXion »

I don't smoke in the presence of non-smokers. Does that mean I'm still an evil person?
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Re: Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by General Zod »

Shrykull wrote: >snip common arguments<
5. I should have the right to let my establishment patrons smoke if they want to, if you don't like it, don't come in my establishment (here in Massachusetts, smoking is banned in any public place, (restaurants, bars, etc)
How about I form a public pool that allows pissing in it? Don't like it, don't swim there.
6. Yes, smokers do cause taxpayers to pay lots of money to healthcare, but if everyone stopped smoking, eventually we'd be paying for all the non smokers who would live longer and ultimately require more money for healthcare.
This is retarded in more ways than I can possibly count. Neverminding it's a slippery slope, it's completely unjustifiable and says that people having longer lifespans is a bad thing.
7. If cigarette smoke causes so much harm, then why in the 50's when most men smoked, were thier lower sickness and fatality rates among thier wives?
Unfounded assumption without numbers.
8. I don't blow smoke in my children's faces!
Yet they probably reek of smoke or do so in the same room. Enough to do damage to their lungs.
9. You'll like this one: Once I heard about a girl, who to mask the smoke on her breath, sprayed hairspray or something into her mouth to mask it. She wouldn't have to do this if the school allowed smoking (Actually, in the 70's at least some high schools did have smoking lounges, not sure now. Though I'm not sure how that's supposed to work. If it's illegal for minors to smoke, why would it be allowed in school?)
This is probably the single most retarded argument out of the entire batch. I'm not even sure how to begin addressing this.
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Post by General Zod »

NoXion wrote:I don't smoke in the presence of non-smokers. Does that mean I'm still an evil person?
Just a stupid one.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
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Post by Shrykull »

Take a look at these pro smoking sites (just on a google search)


the first on the list in particular
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Post by Shrykull »

this one's hilarious, looks at the pictures of non-smokers, and smokers.

http://www.geocities.com/americansall/
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Post by PeZook »

Shrykull wrote:this one's hilarious, looks at the pictures of non-smokers, and smokers.

http://www.geocities.com/americansall/
I don't think that pro-smoking lobby is trying to claim smoking isn't dangerous ; There's too much evidence for that. Their current front is that second-hand smoke is not the danger that people claim it to be, and so smokers should be allowed to smoke in public places, since they aren't harming anybody. Oh, tomorrow I gonna show you people something, as soon as I get my hands on a digital camera.
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Post by Shrykull »

but they are claiming on that site that they pay more in sin taxes than thier health care will ever cost. I don't think that's true.
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Post by PeZook »

Ghetto edit: Oh. I can see this webpage is claiming that smoking is perfectly harmless, non-addictive and fun. I take my earlier statement back.
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Post by Shrykull »

Also, I wonder. I've heard cigars are supposedly healthier because you don't inhale, but not a safe alternative, what about pipes?
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Post by The Vortex Empire »

Shrykull wrote:Also, I wonder. I've heard cigars are supposedly healthier because you don't inhale, but not a safe alternative, what about pipes?
They're still harmful, because the tobacco is still secondhand smoke. Both the smoker and people around him/her will still inhale it.
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Re: Anti Cigarette site/Pro Smoking Arguments

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Shrykull wrote:I'm working on a site as to why cigarettes should be taken off the market here's what I have sofar, and some pro smoking arguments, which I already have some rebuttals to, just want to see what you guys think/think of, still have a lot of research to do:
Once upon a time, a man walked carefully through the woods, carrying a bow and arrow on a hunting trip for his tribe. He had tracked the deer for hours now, even managed to find it, but he missed, it ran away and now he was back on it’s trail. The sun was setting and the first snows had started two months ago, and now it was the dead of winter and he was freezing. He knew he would need warmth and he would need to build a fire. He gathered some sticks and leaves, some fallen logs which he was fortunate to find and made a ring of rocks. He put the leaves on the bottom, took a stick and started drilling the end into one of the logs, after much effort the log started to give a little smoke, then more then it finally came alight. He took it and ignited the leaves with it, the leaves caught fire, then the kindling caught fire and then finally the logs, he was now warm.
Suddenly a wind blew one of the leaves out toward the man, startled, he jumped and it landed next to him, he put his face to it, and caught a wiff of the smoke coming from it, this smoke had a pleasant aroma, from these kind of leaves, he started inhaling more of it, and enjoyed it. He ignited another leave, rolled it and inhaled the smoke. He would soon relay this message to his tribe. For the caveman, he didn’t know any better that the smoke was though so pleasant, was so harmful. For him, ignorance was bliss…………….

We Don’t have that Excuse!!
Do you honestly think that smoking started because some caveman accidentally inhaled some smoke and enjoyed it? Look, your intentions are good, but don't give the pro-smoking crowd an easy target. Cut out this crappy story please. I am, of course, assuming that you were quoting yourself.
Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

The Vortex Empire wrote:
Shrykull wrote:Also, I wonder. I've heard cigars are supposedly healthier because you don't inhale, but not a safe alternative, what about pipes?
They're still harmful, because the tobacco is still secondhand smoke. Both the smoker and people around him/her will still inhale it.
Not to mention the incidents of mouth cancer in cigar smokers (this goes for chewing tobacco too).
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Post by Shrykull »

I've never heard a lot of fuss about pipes at least. I remember one of my teachers said he quit smoking cigarettes by smoking a pipe, then quit smoking the pipe because he got sick of carrying the stuff around.
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Post by phred »

The singular of "leaves" is "leaf'

The first 3 are easy. When you smoke it stops being your problem and starts being others. Im going to die but it may come faster because of smokers

number 4. people do complain about auto emissions

number 5. thats being taken care of

Number 6. the problems caused by smoking are a hell ofd alot more expensive to treat than simple "old age"

number 7. prove it

number 8. its airborne. do you force your kids to hang out with people that have the flu, chicken pox, or any other illness that can be transmitted through the air?
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Post by rhoenix »

Somehow, I knew this would come up sooner or later.

I speak as a former smoker. Not an ex-smoker, mind you - being an ex-smoker implies that the habit might start again in the future.

It was a chemical way for me to find solace, emotional support, and comfort when I wasn't able to give any of the above to myself.

Since I began taking Qigong nearly a year ago, I worked on replacing the reasons I smoke, one at a time, and replacing them directly with things that added to or enhanced my life, not poisoning and killing myself.

I began to drink good tea all the time to help me keep calm and at peace. I began to take walks and exercise to shed stress. I began to eat better, and more often.

Now, it's been nearly four months since I've left cigarettes in my past. I don't miss them or feel any inclination to go back - I happen to like breathing well.

For all other arguments on this topic, I'll quote a friend of mine: "Those who lack courage will always find a philosophy to justify it."
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