Help With Fundie Brother

[JLTucker]

I logged into MySpace and I received a message from a brother who lives in Mississippi:

Jeffrey, I love you. I read your blog about your political and religious views, and it saddened me. I am praying for you and will continue to love you despite your direction of life. I don't know for what reason you have chosen to believe there isn't a God, but I would like to know. You are deceived, and that grieves me.
" The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God.' " - Psalm 52:1
The Bible never defends the fact that there isn't a God, because God doesn't have to defend the fact that he exists. Just like you don't have to argue the fact that you exist. You live in a house because someone built it. You live on planet earth because God created it, and put you here. It takes more faith to not believe in God, than it does to believe in Him. I mean, even the devils believe in God .
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:the devils also believe, and tremble." - James 2:19
Jeffrey, God put you here for a reason and He has a purpose for your life, and that is to worship Him. You think you have freedom in not believing in God. But true freedom comes only from the Lord Jesus Christ.
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." - John 8:36
I hope and pray that you will continue to talk to me. I want to know what your reason for thinking this way is. I will listen to you, because I care for you. I will agree that religion, ALONE, is not a good thing. Becaus if you don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ, your religion is dead. But my prayer for you is that you deny yourself and follow Him, because He loves you.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" - John 3:16
I love you and I'm praying for you.
Please respond.
In Christ's love,
your brother,
Shannon

I have prepared a response but have not sent it to him yet. I am inexperienced in debating and I ask some of you for help with dealing with this issue. Thanks.

[Patrick Degan]

Like all Fundies, your brother essentially bases his entire position on one big, steaming Appeal to Authority and believes spewing a bunch of quotes from his faerytale book settles the matter.

[Kuroneko]

The same question of 'why disbelive' can be asked of him regarding Allah, Buddha, Amaterasu, or Thor. And as far as God not having to "defend the fact that he exist", that seems right--but then again, neither does Thor 'have to' defend anything of the sort either. In the end, all theological discourse is between people; people make these assertions, and people do have to defend their claims if they wish to be taken seriously.

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

[Hillary]

There is a marvellous quote "Once you understand why you dismiss every other god you will understand why I dismiss yours" - I can't remember who it belongs to, unfortunately.

The problem you have is that it is impossible to win arguments against Fundies - their capacity for that classic circular argument is limitless.

1. God exists because the Bible says so.

2. The Bible is true because God says so.

Therefore all Bible quotations they give you are absolute truth and cannot be questioned. In their mind, they've won the argument.

However, if you respond with Bible quotes showing God and Christianity in a bad light or highlighting contradictions within the Bible, you'll be taking quotes out of context or misinterpreting the REAL meaning. They do not have to prove you are, of course, as you are not a believer and can't possibly understand God's truth.

[Zixinus]

Personally, I don't think there is much to argue. In your shoes, I'd just say that "you have reasons to believe in your god, I have reason not to believe him". He is your brother and I think that this may just put bad blood between you two.

But then again, that's just what I think.

[Broomstick]

I would recommend that you not engage him in debate.

[Dorsk 81]

There is a marvellous quote "Once you understand why you dismiss every other god you will understand why I dismiss yours" - I can't remember who it belongs to, unfortunately.

Stephen Roberts said it; "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

I'm with Broomstick here, I wouldn't even try and debate him, not if you want to keep a cordial relationship with him. With the bible in his hand you'll just encounter a wall of ignorance that'll just lead to you getting frustrated with him, and him pitying you. That's the problem with a lot of these people, you can't win. You could show conclusive evidence that there is no god and they'd dismiss it as a test of their faith.

[Feil]

Enjoy biting your tongue and taking their shit for the rest of your life, or give up on the relationship and attack it like you would any other member of the brainwashed billions. When dealing with someone whose worldview concretely excludes the scientific method, truth and friendship are mutually incompatible. If it's any consolation, there's almost no chance of breaking through the wall of ignorance anyway, so all you're losing by not fighting back is a little pride.

[Hillary]

There is a marvellous quote "Once you understand why you dismiss every other god you will understand why I dismiss yours" - I can't remember who it belongs to, unfortunately.

Stephen Roberts said it; "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

I thank you

I'm with Broomstick here, I wouldn't even try and debate him, not if you want to keep a cordial relationship with him. With the bible in his hand you'll just encounter a wall of ignorance that'll just lead to you getting frustrated with him, and him pitying you. That's the problem with a lot of these people, you can't win. You could show conclusive evidence that there is no god and they'd dismiss it as a test of their faith.

May I third this sentiment. It was sort of what I was trying to say anyway.

Best to let it lie imo

[Rye]

If my brother said that to me, I would laugh in his face. I'd also at least try to say "I know you mean well, but I can't believe that failed jewish mythology, sorry."

[Surlethe]

If you're going to bring him around, you'll have to be patient and cultivate the relationship as well as being gentle in the points you impart. Think of yourself as a teacher and him as an errant child; he requires correction, but he doesn't understand where he's gone wrong, so you will need to explain, probably several times over, why such-and-such is incorrect or false. Be patient; make your goal his understanding, rather than victory in debate.

To elaborate, when engaging a fundie in debate, you can have one of two aims. Either you can try to convince the fundie, or you can try to convince the audience. With the dashing, flashy, energetic debate style we use here, we generally (with or without realizing it) are trying to convince the audience. Fundies are commonly regarded as unreachable. If you want to actually convince the fundie, then you need to be much gentler and more patient to make sure that he actually understands the unfamiliar points you're throwing at him, rather than simply expecting him to understand.

I personally think you've got a golden chance here. Your brother is willing to listen to you and talk with you; he wants to understand you. If you can help him to understand -- if you can get him to understand -- why you're an atheist, that will lay the foundation for his move away from fundiehood. Even if he becomes a moderate Christian and isn't willing to give up his faith, it's still a battle won against religious bigotry.

[salm]

I don´t have any brothers but if a good friend comes up with the religious crap like this (usually in a drunk state) i and most other friends just redicule him long enough until he shuts up. Works fine with him but perhaps this is not the right tactic for everybody.

[JLTucker]

I sent him a response that simply asked him to respect my views and to not send me another message like this again. He responded with this:

I'm sorry you feel this way, but I will not give up hope on you. Why you may ask? Because I was once lost in my sin and didn't care what anybody else thought as you do. I can't change you, but Jesus Christ can. I know God can change people, because he changed me. If you don't believe it ask the people who have been around me and knew who I was before and who I am now. I love you, therefore, I will keep praying for you. There have been many self-proclaimed atheist who have been changed by the power of Jesus Christ: C.S.Lewis and Lee Strobel just to name a couple. You still haven't told me the reason for your decision. You are blinded by the god of this world. But I am praying for you. I am willing to listen to anything you have to say. Please tell me the hurt and pain you are feeling. The bitternes and hatred you hold within your breast. There is nothing that has been done to you that the LORD can't cure, and there is nothing you have done that the LORD cannot forgive. He loves you more than I do. I love you, Jeffery. You can't change that. And God loves you. You can't change that either. Please don't shut me out. Talk to me.

Shannon

[Surlethe]

Well, that was rather rude of him. He seems to have the notion that you're bitter and angry about something -- whether you are or aren't, I wouldn't know, but it's a classic fundie assumption about atheists: that they really do believe in God, but hate him instead of simply regarding a deity as an antiquated myth.

[Ryushikaze]

Wait wait, when did C.S. Lewis proclaim himself an atheist?

And furthermore, why is it relevant?

[JLTucker]

He seems to believe that there is hope that I will become a Christian again since C.S. Lewis did.

[Surlethe]

Wait wait, when did C.S. Lewis proclaim himself an atheist?

And furthermore, why is it relevant?

According to this website, C.S. Lewis lost his faith in 1913. And it's relevant because to Shannon, it's "evidence" that God can restore faith to anyone if they let him.

[Singular Intellect]

I sent him a response that simply asked him to respect my views and to not send me another message like this again. He responded with this:

*snip*

Send him a reply along the lines of this:

Brother

If you really are open to trying to understand my view, then do me this favor. List the reasons why you do not believe in Thor, the God of thunder and war. Once compiled, read over them again, replacing Thor with your god, and you will understand why I don't believe in your god anymore than the god Thor.

[Wyrm]

There have been many self-proclaimed atheist who have been changed by the power of Jesus Christ: C.S.Lewis and Lee Strobel just to name a couple.

The reverse process definitely happens. Julia Sweeny, to name one, has even documented in detail how she lost her faith. Ironically, studying the Bible — really studying it, and not just skimming it — played a huge part in her becoming an atheist.

You still haven't told me the reason for your decision. You are blinded by the god of this world. But I am praying for you. I am willing to listen to anything you have to say. Please tell me the hurt and pain you are feeling. The bitternes and hatred you hold within your breast.

Shannon is under the misapprehention that you became an athiest because of some tragic event in your life turned you against God. He thinks that if you just resolve that issue, you'll suddenly become a God-fearing christian (notice the terminology).

You must point out that such a view is sadly mistaken. Even if you resolve all the issues that make you hurt, you are more likely to become a Samyaksambuddha than a God-fearing christian. If rebellion against God was your only goal, you have literally thousands of other religions to choose from that do not have the Christian god as a part of it at all. To instead choose atheism, a state of belief/nonbelief that not only offers no supernatural comfort at all, but is also the most dispised minority in America, indicates something deeper than mere rebellion.

You need to point out that atheism is not a rebellion against christiandom, but rather an inescapable conclusion that you have arrived at through observation and reasoning. And, as a reasoning being, you cannot reject valid conclusions based on evidence, even if you find them uncomfortable.

There is nothing that has been done to you that the LORD can't cure, and there is nothing you have done that the LORD cannot forgive. He loves you more than I do.

Why should you expect such forgiveness? To you, God is an imaginary being unable to forgive anyone.

I love you, Jeffery. You can't change that. And God loves you. You can't change that either. Please don't shut me out. Talk to me.

Point out that you do accept your brother's love, but that does not mean that you can accept his faith as your own.

According to this website, C.S. Lewis lost his faith in 1913. And it's relevant because to Shannon, it's "evidence" that God can restore faith to anyone if they let him.

What's the difference between God restoring faith in the willing and the willing restore the faith themselves?

[Surlethe]

According to this website, C.S. Lewis lost his faith in 1913. And it's relevant because to Shannon, it's "evidence" that God can restore faith to anyone if they let him.

What's the difference between God restoring faith in the willing and the willing restore the faith themselves?

Absolutely nothing. Shannon probably thinks that there is a difference, but he'd be hard-pressed to say what it is.

[JLTucker]

I decided to not respond to his message. I will just ignore him. I do not like him much anyway. He revealed his ignorance when I was in Mississippi last month.

[Battlehymn Republic]

I'm probably biased, but it seems that as far as his second message goes, it may have ignorance and logical fallacies in it, but he's hardly being a zealot about it. Saying that you do not like him much anyways- isn't that a bit harsh?

[Hillary]

Send him a reply along the lines of this:

Brother

If you really are open to trying to understand my view, then do me this favor. List the reasons why you do not believe in Thor, the God of thunder and war. Once compiled, read over them again, replacing Thor with your god, and you will understand why I don't believe in your god anymore than the god Thor.

Standard fundie reply -

"But Thor is not real whereas God is, so they cannot be compared."

Fundies are immune to logic - let's face it, you'd have to be to believe everything in the bible is fact - so trying to debate them is rather pointless (although it can be fun, of course).

[Hillary]

I'm probably biased, but it seems that as far as his second message goes, it may have ignorance and logical fallacies in it, but he's hardly being a zealot about it. Saying that you do not like him much anyways- isn't that a bit harsh?

I'm curious - what would he have to say in order for you to classify him as a zealot?

The fact that this guy is seriously hard-selling his religion to someone who has made it plain he doesn't want to know surely makes him a classic zealot.

[JLTucker]

Saying that you do not like him much anyways- isn't that a bit harsh?

I forgot to add that he is not a blood relative.