Homosexuality

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
Max
Jedi Knight
Posts: 780
Joined: 2005-02-02 12:38pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Homosexuality

Post by Max »

I have a question. I am having a discussion on another board about Homosexuality. The question originally asked was whether it was choice or not, and then it sort of morphed into what factors are at play. Is it just biological, prenatal, environmental, etc.. My argument is that it's can possibly be as a result of multiple causes, and that it isn't strictly from one thing or another. Every paper I read, the conclusion seems to be that there are so many variables to consider, that pinning it down to one cause isn't an option. However, the person I'm discussing this with has posted pop science articles saying how it's likely a biological cause, which I've never argued. Then says that there is 0 evidence for environment to be a factor, because no tests have shown that.
Not one person has shown me one piece of evidence to it being environmental because there isn't any. Again, just because they don't rule it out doesn't mean this evidence exists. I'd glady love to see some experiments and things done that say, "Most gay men sat under trees at 3 years old, so that had a strong influence to their being gay." Or that, "Gay men were all molested when they were kids." Or that, "People who read comic books were more likely to turn gay when older than not." There is simply no common thread that connects us, environmentally speaking, that helps us turn gay. Also, there is no such thing as something being partially biological. I'd love to see these studies that point to strong environmental factors that helped make us gay.

So, maybe I can rephrase it to your liking. All evidence, SO FAR, points towards prenatal biological (brain development/hormones) causation of sexuality.

But I'll also add don't hold your breath for there being an environmental factor.
I've never made those environmental claims, so I don't know if he's really strawmanning my argument or what. I claimed that because the environment poses so many variables, that it can't simply be dismissed. So I'm curious if there are any studies that show that environment can have an effect on ones sexuality? Or am I completely wrong here? I'm gay, but I don't think I'd go around saying that there is solely one cause in shaping someones sexuality...
[/quote]
Loading...
Image
User avatar
Count Dooku
Jedi Knight
Posts: 577
Joined: 2006-01-18 11:37pm
Location: California

Post by Count Dooku »

In the scientific journal, Cell, a group of scientists were able to manipulate a single gene in fruit flies; and when said gene was manipulated (I believe with the introduction of a specific protien) a domino effect occured, and the flie's entire body was affected. The fly instantly went from being completely heterosexual, to being completely homosexual (in so much as it preformed the mating rituals of it's actual sex with no gene manipulation, and reversed roles when the protien was introduced). That's a very strong indicator that homosexuality is indeed predetermined at birth.

Here's the Livescience article about it, and I believe it links you to the journal in which it was published: http://www.livescience.com/animals/050602_fly_sex_.html
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." (Seneca the Younger, 5 BC - 65 AD)
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

The most straight forward rebuttal to the nurture/nature nonsense is ask them if they chose to be straight. Then watch the feet shuffling begin.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Max
Jedi Knight
Posts: 780
Joined: 2005-02-02 12:38pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Post by Max »

It's not really a question about choice. We both agree that people just don't (for the most part) just wake up and pick what sexuality they want to be. The argument is more on whether environmental factors can play a part in determining sexuality. I say there are, but he keeps telling me there's absolutely no evidence for it.
Loading...
Image
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Max wrote:It's not really a question about choice. We both agree that people just don't (for the most part) just wake up and pick what sexuality they want to be. The argument is more on whether environmental factors can play a part in determining sexuality. I say there are, but he keeps telling me there's absolutely no evidence for it.
If there's evidence for it, then you should be able to produce some references to that effect. Otherwise, he scores a point, whether you like it or not.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

In the case of identical twins, where one is gay the other is more likely to be gay than would a sibling of said twins, which indicates heredity at work. On the other hand, there identical twins that are also discordant for hetero/homosexuality as well, which indicates that the cause is not entirely genetic. Since identical twins share identical genes what, other than environment, would account for them having different sexual orientations?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:In the case of identical twins, where one is gay the other is more likely to be gay than would a sibling of said twins, which indicates heredity at work. On the other hand, there identical twins that are also discordant for hetero/homosexuality as well, which indicates that the cause is not entirely genetic. Since identical twins share identical genes what, other than environment, would account for them having different sexual orientations?
Depends on what you mean by "environment". When most people talk about environmental impact on sexual orientation, they're referring to the popular belief that homosexuals come from bad parenting. If someone were to discover a connection between sexual orientation and (for example) diet or early childhood illness or pre-natal exposure to alcohol, that would be "environment" but it wouldn't be what most people are thinking of when they use the term.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Post by Zixinus »

I presume there must be some difference if a child grew up in a environment where homosexuality was tolerated, and in an environment where they were beaten to death.

As for nature/nurture, I recall that various (or every?) primates are observed to do homosexual activity, up to obviously sex.
Especially the Bombano species that are full-out in regards of sexuality. I also recall that the Bombano are fairly peaceful when compared to other primates.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Post by Frank Hipper »

Zixinus wrote:I presume there must be some difference if a child grew up in a environment where homosexuality was tolerated, and in an environment where they were beaten to death.
What difference would that be?
A person may repress their sexuality in a life-threatening situation, but they need to have that particular sexuality to repress in the first place.
As for nature/nurture, I recall that various (or every?) primates are observed to do homosexual activity, up to obviously sex.
Especially the Bombano species that are full-out in regards of sexuality. I also recall that the Bombano are fairly peaceful when compared to other primates.
Do you mean bonobos?
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Post by Zixinus »

A person may repress their sexuality in a life-threatening situation, but they need to have that particular sexuality to repress in the first place.
Or they do not allow their "considered-to-be-bad" sexuality to develop at all. Or people that would be "straight", might experiment and enjoy homosexual activity.

I view homosexuality as a neutral activity, as even primates do it, I heard that we even found the gene that is responsible for such activity, and I do consider homosexual relationships a healthy thing (although I'm straight myself).
However, I do not view it as a "polar" issue, ie that there is a very large grey area. There are people that are definitely gay or straight, but there are people that just have larger tendencies for the one then the other, and people that do not have a clear preference. There are circumstances where people become gay or straight due to environment,

It other words, I believe sexuality to be a very much more complex thing. Are there people that are "gay the day they were born"? Yeah. But does that mean that every gay person is of these people? I'm pretty sure that the answer is no.
Do you mean bonobos?
Yes.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Post by Zixinus »

Quick fix:

I view homosexuality as a natural thing. Not neutral.

Another thing: the gene is not responsible for the activity, I think it merely gives the tendency, and that in some people it becomes very strong.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Thre's a whole species of lizards, whiptail Lizards, which are entirely female and reproduce parthenogenically, but they actually mount each other to induce specific hormonal triggers which are required for them to produce fertile eggs.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

Zixinus wrote:Quick fix:

I view homosexuality as a natural thing. Not neutral.

Another thing: the gene is not responsible for the activity, I think it merely gives the tendency, and that in some people it becomes very strong.
Using a naturalistic argument can be a very difficult position to defend however, as you risk running into fallacy territory. It's typically best to approach it from other angles if at all possible given how easy it is to shred a naturalist stance. (Fundamentalists often use the "it's not natural" remark to attack homosexuality regularly.)
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Post by Zixinus »

Using a naturalistic argument can be a very difficult position to defend however, as you risk running into fallacy territory. It's typically best to approach it from other angles if at all possible given how easy it is to shred a naturalist stance. (Fundamentalists often use the "it's not natural" remark to attack homosexuality regularly.)
First: I'm not an gay-rights activist, and I wasn't trying to argue. I thank you for pointing out that my argument is not very defensible, but I wasn't trying to argue. I merely told my own view.

Second: "It's not natural" implies that no other animal does it, and that we are not "meant" for it. The first one is false, as other animals do it. Regularly and surely not by accident. The second one, implies creationism. I believe that I don't even have to go there around here.

Animals fuck their own genders. We have genes for fucking our own gender. Our very,very distant family members are regularly seen fucking each other's brains out, they are so on it. Our urge to fuck our own gender is pretty much the same as to fuck the opposite gender. We even make marriages and consider such a relationship on-par with heterosexual relationship, some say that its even better.
If it's not natural, I don't know what it is.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
CaptJodan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2217
Joined: 2003-05-27 09:57pm
Location: Orlando, Florida

Post by CaptJodan »

Because I was bored...

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html


Kinda long, but I'll include it here.

Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture

Ryan D. Johnson

April 30, 2003


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In recent decades, many hotly debated topics have come under the scrutiny of sociobiologists, trying to determine their causation and origins. One such topic is homosexuality. Originally thought by the American Psychological Association (hereafter referred to as APA) to be a mental disorder, research into its causes, origins, and development have consequently led to its removal by the APA from its list of diagnoses and disorders [1]. Many different theories can be found regarding the root of homosexuality, as far back historically as Ancient Greece. The current debate is whether or not homosexuality is a result of nature: a person's environment and surroundings, or of his biology and genetics. The debate endures because both sides have the ability to create a scientific environment to support their cause. For example, biological theorists may argue that a monkey and human child, reared in the same setting, will develop with vastly different outcomes, while social theorists may argue that monozygotic twins, one reared normally and the other raised in seclusion for 18 years, will also develop with vastly different results, but different even more from the first scenario [4].

In debating sexual orientation, much is unknown; according to Charles Darwin, "...we do not even in the least know the final cause of sexuality. The whole subject is hidden in darkness." [2]. Although the APA currently states that sexual orientation is not a choice, rather that "...it emerges from most people in early adolescence with no prior sexual experience"[1], social theorists argue that an individual's upbringing can directly influence this [sexual orientation]. Also tied in with many of these debates is the morality of homosexuality. But the purpose of this examination is not to prove whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong, but rather to establish a thorough understanding of the biological and social theories surrounding the cause of homosexuality.

Let us first look at the biological debate. Biological theorists have found substantial instances of anatomical, genetic, and endocrine evidence to support their argument. Experiments in biological research date back as far as the late 1930's, beginning with the pioneering research of Alfred Kinsey (for the University of Indiana) on human sexuality. Kinsey had two goals for his tests: 1) to find out how many adult males engaged in homosexual behavior, and 2) to suggest theories about it came to be [9]. When asked if they had engaged in homosexual sexual relations, a large percent of the population tested answered "no", however when asked if they had engaged in same-sex sexual relations, the percentage answering "yes" nearly doubled. The experiment yielded that 30% of males had experienced at least orgasm in a homosexual act. The results of this research became the widely popularized Kinsey Scale of Sexuality. This scale rates all individuals on a spectrum of sexuality, ranging from 100% heterosexual to 100% homosexual, and everything in between [7]. While establishing that as many as 10% of adult males reported having sexual relations with a same-sex partner, this research did little more than to put the word homosexual into common language.

Karen Hooker executed the first psychological test done to test for biological determinism in 1957, on a grant from the National Institute of Mental Health [2]. The study was meant to explore the relationship between homosexuality and psychological development and illness. Hooker studied both homosexuals and heterosexuals. Both groups were matched for age, intelligence quotient (IQ) and education level, and were then subjected to three psychological tests. These three tests, the Rorschach, Thematic Apperception Test (TAT) and the Make-A-Picture-Story Test (MAPS), were then analyzed by psychologists, and the results were tabulated. The results of Hooker's experiment yielded no significant differences in answers on any of the three tests. Because both groups' answers scored very similarly, she concluded a zero correlation between social determinism of sexuality.

As a result of Hooker's finding, the APA removed homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychological Disorders in 1973. In 1975 it then released a public statement that homosexuality was not a mental disorder. In 1994, two decades later, the APA finally stated, "...homosexuality is neither a mental illness nor a moral depravity. It is the way a portion of the population expresses human love and sexuality" [2].

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

Another line of testing done to support the biological perspective are neuroendocrine studies. The neuroendocrine viewpoint's basic hypothesis is that sexual orientation is determined by the early levels (probably prenatal) of androgen on relevant neural structures [7]. If highly exposed to these androgens, the fetus will become masculinized, or attracted to females. This research was conducted on rats at Stanford. The adult female rats that received male-typical levels of androgens sufficiently early in development exhibited male symptoms of attraction. The same was true in the reverse when applied to the male subjects. The female exposed to high levels of the hormone exhibited high levels of aggression and sexual drive toward other females, eventually trying to mount the other females in an act of reproduction. In the males, the subject who received deficient levels of androgen became submissive in matters of sexual drive and reproduction and were willing to receive the sexual act of the other male rat [7].

A popular route of experimentation in general psychology also did not elude the biological argument. Twin studies have become a highly debated area of experimentation. Ernest Kallman conducted the earliest twin study. He found a 100% concordance between monozygotic (or identical) twins (MZ), and only a 12% concordance for dizygotic (or fraternal) twins (DZ). Although discredited with methodological problems, the early experiment paved the way for a much-publicized team to conduct their twin studies.

J. Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard also studied the gayness between MZ twins, DZ twins, and non-related adopted brothers. They examined how many of the sample population examined were gay and how many were straight. They found that 52% of MZ twins were both self-identified homosexuals, 22% of DZ twins were so, and only 5% of non-related adopted brothers were so. This evidence, repeated and found to be true a second time, showed to the biological camp that the more closely genetically linked a pair is, the more likely they both are to exhibit gay or straight tendencies. Later experimenters found similar evidence in females. One such scientist is Dean Hamer. Hamer examined the possibility of homosexuality being an X-linked trait. He examined the family trees of openly gay men, and thought he saw a maternal link, leading him to investigate his theory of X-linkage. He took 40 DNA samples from homosexual men, and genetically examined them. He found that there was a 'remarkable concordance' for 5 genetic markers on section of the X-Chromosome called Xq28 [2].

Hamer hypothesized upon examining the family trees of the same men that on each subject's mother's side, there were markedly larger numbers of homosexual men, all stemming through the maternal lineages. This observation, along with his startling discovery on Xq28, led his findings to be dubbed the "gay gene study". The statistical probability of the 5 genetic markers on Xq28 to have matched randomly was calculated to be 1/100,000 [2], lending even more support to his findings.

This finding of a possible 'gay gene' prompts a look into two evolutionary concepts, and how they are affected. The Superior Heterozygote Theory states the phenotypic (actual) expression of homosexuality is the result of homozygosity for recessive (non-expressed but present) genes [11]. In simplification, if the person's genetic code is heterozygotic (one homosexual gene and one heterosexual gene), if the homosexual allele (half of the genetic code) is the allele passed on to the next generation, it will become the phenotype. Heterozygotes are only capable of being passed through to the next generation by mothers (as the Y-chromosome is incapable of heterozygosity), this again links homosexuality to X-linkage.

While all of this scientific experimentation and conclusion seems evidentiary, sociobehaviorists are not convinced. This opposing point-of-view proposes that homosexuality is the result of environmental factors, not biological ones. Most social theorists see childhood elements as the largest contributing factors to homosexuality. Often they examine childhood play patterns, early peer interactions and relations, differences in parental behavior toward male and female children, and the role of gender constancy in the household [9].

The social argument for homosexuality dates back to the ancient Greeks. Aristophanes, in his Symposium investigates homosexuality, although not termed as such, as a desire by men to share a long-term fulfillment of the soul. He believed that two souls are longing to be together, and the sexual desire alone is not strong enough to create homosexuality, but that the cultural environment allows or forbids the relationship to occur [10]. In Greece is it well known that many men engaged in same-sex relationships, however, these were not equal relationships, they were older men to young boys going through the transition to adulthood. Two instances where the culture is a causative agent of homosexual expression are in New Guinea and Crete. In some tribes in New Guinea, young boys ages 8-15 are inseminated daily by the young male warriors of the tribe. In Crete, every adolescent boy undertook a homosexual relationship as a rite of passage into manhood [10]. In these two instances, the homosexuality is accepted; however, it can be argued that it is also forced, not a natural expression.

Most psychoanalytic theories, however, stress the role of parental and family dynamics, not the society as a whole. Behaviorists believe that some sexual and gender identification differences result from roles imposed by family and friends upon children, such as the masculine and the feminine stereotypes. Problems with this are there is no evidence, social or biological, to support that homosexual children were raised differently than were the heterosexual children. Also, with reinforcement of gender identification norms, one would be led to logically deduce that all of the stereotype reinforcement would ensure a heterosexual outcome [7].

While it is agreed that an element of gender ID is based on the decision made by parents on how to raise the child, the other element is formed with the development of language skills, naming of sexual behaviors and the naming process related to these behaviors [9]. Gender ID is learned over time, and other contributions include the frequency of parental interactions, tolerance of aggression levels, and the vigor of play during childhood. In this, another theory is acknowledged, the Parental Manipulation Theory. This theory is that one or both parents are able to neuter and control offspring to promote their (the parent's) evolutionary fitness, ensuring the passage of genes into the next generation. By selecting only heterosexual practices as acceptable, the parents are attempting to promote their passage of genes [5]. However the Kin-Selection Theory contrasts this. This theory states that it doesn't matter how the genes are passed to the next generation, so long as they are passed along. For example, regardless of a homosexual outcome, the very similar genetic makeup of siblings will still allow for the passage of the family genetics along to the next generation [9].

Two predominant social theorists on homosexuality are David Halperin and Jean Foucault. Although both social theorists, both have largely contrasting ideas on the environmental contributions to the formation of an individual's homosexuality. Halperin believed in Planophysical theory. This theory believes that homosexuality is a freak of nature, an error. His theory follows in the tradition of psychological theory on this subject. Halperin was a Freudian psychologist, and places stock in Freud's idea that homosexuality is derived from a failure to resolve Oedipal issues [10]. Although Halperin has a large following from interest groups such as Christian coalitions, his theory is largely disrespected by the psychological community at large, as it provides only a result, not a cause. He fails to produce any scientific evidence. He does, however, provide examples. He postulates that a weak father and strong mother, with an unresolved Oedipus complex will lead to a weak, and then homosexual, son, because the mother has too strong of an image, compared to the weak state of the father. Psychologists argue that this same arrangement would also possibly lead to a stronger son, striving for compensation of his father's weakness.

Jean Foucault argues, "...homosexuality became because we made it so" [11]. Foucault says that the category of homosexuality itself was only created a mere one hundred years ago, after a German neologism coined some twenty years later. Foucault gives root to the social derivation of homosexuality believing that homosexuality appeared as one of the forms of sexuality, only "after it was transposed from the practice of sodomy into a kind of interior androgyny, a hermaphrodism of the soul" [10]. The theorists believe that the homosexual had been an aberration, and had then become a species, justifying itself with a new word.

Although both theorists represent the major ideas of the socioenviromental belief, there are three differences in the two theories. The first is based on the depth of desire. Foucault believed that the depth of desire is only sexual preference, that it is nothing more than superficial tastes and preferences. Halperin contrasts this with saying that homosexuality does go deeper than superficial tastes, and that homosexuality is a psychological condition, with much deeper roots than mere sexual preference. The second major difference is that Foucault did not divide people into categories. Halperin acknowledged that there are three general categories of people in respect to sexuality: heterosexual, gay men, and lesbians. Foucault groups gay men and lesbians into the all-inclusive term of homosexual. The third difference is that Halperin see homosexuality as a symmetrical and equal relationship, Foucault believes that historically, as far back as the Greeks, before the term was coined, homosexuality has always been unequal, differences in race, age, education and social status influencing the 'superficial' tastes and preferences of the men influenced.

We have examined many causes for homosexuality in the preceding pages, both biological and social. And although an interesting topic of debate, no one theory or experiment leads to a definitive answer. Some believe that the characters found on Xq28 are the Holy Grail of homosexuality research, the elusive 'gay gene'. Others may place stock in the theories of Foucault and Halperin. Perhaps Simon LeVay did reveal to us that anatomy is the key to understanding the difference in sexual orientation. Perhaps there is no one answer, that sexual orientation, whether homosexual or heterosexual; gay, straight, lesbian, or bisexual, all are a cause of a complex interaction between environmental, cognitive, and anatomical factors, shaping the individual at an early age.
[/url]
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Then says that there is 0 evidence for environment to be a factor, because no tests have shown that.
He is right. Whether he is responding directly to you or trying to anticipate your next posts it is irrelevant. I dont think it is necessarily a strawman without seeing the rest of the thread. But, let me go over this stuff. (This is what happens when you have a gay man training to be a behavioral biologist..)

Current evidence shows that male homosexuality is caused proximately by pervasive brain feminization. Something happens in neurodevelopment that sets the brain of a male homosexual at least partially along a feminine developmental track. If key parts get feminized to a large degree you end up with a gay man, if to a lesser degree a bisexual etc. Gender non-conformity is at least partially caused by the same mechanism (hence the spectrum between the feminine and masculine homosexuals). This is probably a combination effect. Caused by genes, the fraternal birth order effect (the mother essentially becomes immunized against male fetuses and the reaction of her immune system increases the likelyhood of homosexuality in subsequent male offspring.)

In terms of genetics and evolution, or ultimate causation, male homosexuality is probably the result of some sort of balanced polymorphism. I will lay out a model really fast.

Say you have hypermasculinity on one end of a continuum and a homosexual male on the other end

Hypermasculine..........................................................Gay

The hypermasculine male has features such as aggression, insensitivity, all those hypermasculine traits that make angry angry athletes poor mates, or to get themselves killed and decrease their reproductive success. While on the other end there are gay men, who do not reproduce. But they tend to have behavioral traits which if they did would make them wonderful mates.

The key to maximizing fitness then is to be far enough away from the hypermasculine end of the continuum without being a homosexual.

Now, say there are a number of genes that control for your position in this continuum. For ease of calculation lets say they are sex linked (so males only get one copy). Say there are five of them. A or a, B or b, C or c, D or d, E or e.

Now, if you have six of the capitalized alleles, you are hypermasculine and have reduced fitness, of you have six of the lower case, you are gay. Each difference in the combination moves you one step in the relevant direction. The looming reproductive death on the ends of the spectrum keeps the any one of the alles from fixating in the population, thus maintaining individuals who are on all parts of it in the population.

You can adjust the number of genes, and the locations (autosomal, or sex linked) and all it does is change the dynamics of the math. The results are the same.

Now, genes are not 100% causal. Heritability is about 50% (monozygotic twins share homosexuality 50-60% of the time depending on the sample). But because all feasible post-birth environmental factors have been ruled out (either by directly testing them, or by using identical twins separated at birth and getting the same rates for shared homosexuality) the only other things that can play a role are maternal factors (immune responses etc) or randomness.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Clarification: I should not that with each step toward the gay end of the continuum, the likelyhood of being gay increases, with an additional likelyhood of being bisexual. It is would not and is nota black/white dichotomy and not all gay men are super-sensitive feel good types.

Granted the traits I refer to could take a bunch of different forms... but... god damn it this is complex...
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

So next question, if the technology was developed to allow parents to reliably choose their offspring's sexuality, should it be legal or illegal? Is there any moral difference here from technology that allows parents to choose their child's gender (which is more or less here already)? How about hair, eye and skin colour?
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I am not sure whether or not it should be. Ethically I tend to think that only diseases should be modifiable and indeed, part of standard pre-natal care. The problem is that if we allow such "designer babies" we open the door to a medical gap between the rich and poor. If we can choose something as complex as sexuality we can probably regulate other emergent phenomenon like intelligence, dancing aptitude etc. This would ensure that we have a distinct biologically and medically stratified society and I dont think that is a good thing.

Hell, the ramifications in china and india's use of selective abortion to get rid of female babies are becoming major....
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:This would ensure that we have a distinct biologically and medically stratified society and I dont think that is a good thing.
So you want to deny future generations the opportunity to be healthier, more intelligent, more talented etc because you think it's unfair and stratifying? How is this any worse than all the advantages money can already buy for ones children? In a sense it's better, because at least those genes are eventually going to diffuse into the general population as normal intermarrying occurs.

There's a good social argument for keeping the gender ratio at 50:50; it's a case where nature actually settled on the humanistic optimum. However I can't say any obvious reason why the fraction of the population that are 'naturally' gay should be treated as an optimum. Maybe we'd all be better off if it was higher (e.g. because having 50% of the population be homosexual would cut down on population growth, force society to be more tolerant, make discrimination against homosexuals harder etc), maybe we'd be better off it was lower (e.g. because making all children hetro means more partner choice and more opportunities for having children of their own).
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

So you want to deny future generations the opportunity to be healthier, more intelligent, more talented etc because you think it's unfair and stratifying? How is this any worse than all the advantages money can already buy for ones children? In a sense it's better, because at least those genes are eventually going to diffuse into the general population as normal intermarrying occurs.
I am not saying I would deny it. But it needs to be considered and implemented very very carefully.

Biologically speaking, variation within the population is good. It may sound nice to be able to make everyone really really smart. But what would that actually do for society? RIght now for example we have a LOT of need for low level service jobs. To use an example. People who are highly intelligent tend not to be satisfied with such work. But there arent enough skilled positions available or even needed in a population. If you artificially shift the bell curve of intelligence there will be a lot of people who are just miserable with their lives. Depression will probably increase, etc.

Mind that is speculation, but it illustrates the point that we have no clue what will actually happen if we start modifying our genetics past the point of getting rid of direct medical defects.

As for intermarrying... people do not often marry outside of their social class. Sorry to say it, but it does not happen often statistically and relying on a genetic "trickle down" effect I dont think is reliable for mitigating the problems that this would bring.

As for homosexuality, if my genetic hypothesis is true, you would end up dictating personality types. I cant even begin to go into how societally dangerous THAT could be
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I am not saying I would deny it. But it needs to be considered and implemented very very carefully.
There's no way an issue that complicated and with such far reaching and unpredictable effects is going to be 'considered and implemented very carefully'. As a fully paid up mad scientist I take great delight in knowing that once this becomes a viable, reliable option for the richest people in society, they will just bribe politicians into making it legal. Damn the precautionary principle, it does not work for technologies where the impacts are primarily social (not that it works terribly well even for something as relatively straightforward and non-social as nuclear power).
RIght now for example we have a LOT of need for low level service jobs.
Which are going to be automated away soon anyway, unless technological progress grinds to a halt. Everything that doesn't actually require a physical presence is going to be outsourced even faster than that - a huge amout of these jobs already have gone to either automation or outsourcing.
But there arent enough skilled positions available or even needed in a population.
You can't fix dodge problem by keeping people stupid, it's going to turn up eventually anyway. Capital has steadily been getting more important than labour and eventually it will become overwhelming. The only way to deal with that is a significant restructuring of society involving a serious drop in working hours for much of the population. The trick is to do that without a simultaneous drop in living standards. Maybe there will be a short regression while a global energy shortage and energy source changeover takes place, but the problem will ultimately have to be faced.
Depression will probably increase, etc.
Maybe not. Your job isn't the only source of intellectual stimulation in your life (I hope), and for a lot of people it isn't the major one.
As for intermarrying... people do not often marry outside of their social class.
That just increases the timescales. Inevitably they do eventually.
and relying on a genetic "trickle down" effect I dont think is reliable for mitigating the problems that this would bring.
That depends if genetic progress continues to advance. Enhancements that render people incapable of breeding with baseline humans are another kettle of fish.
As for homosexuality, if my genetic hypothesis is true, you would end up dictating personality types. I cant even begin to go into how societally dangerous THAT could be
Yep, but do you think the UN or equivalent can really ban it across the whole globe? How many third-world /governments/ would wipe out homosexuality if they could, along with a lot of other 'undesirable' traits?
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

There's no way an issue that complicated and with such far reaching and unpredictable effects is going to be 'considered and implemented very carefully'. As a fully paid up mad scientist I take great delight in knowing that once this becomes a viable, reliable option for the richest people in society, they will just bribe politicians into making it legal. Damn the precautionary principle, it does not work for technologies where the impacts are primarily social (not that it works terribly well even for something as relatively straightforward and non-social as nuclear power).
Naturalistic fallacy. The very question you posited was SHOULD it be illegal. Not whether it realistically would be.
Which are going to be automated away soon anyway, unless technological progress grinds to a halt. Everything that doesn't actually require a physical presence is going to be outsourced even faster than that - a huge amout of these jobs already have gone to either automation or outsourcing.
And with automation of those jobs will come low level jobs elsewhere that need to be filled by a person. basic maintainence, record keeping. The list goes on. Realistically speaking the need for unskilled or semi-skilled labor will never go away.
You can't fix dodge problem by keeping people stupid, it's going to turn up eventually anyway. Capital has steadily been getting more important than labour and eventually it will become overwhelming. The only way to deal with that is a significant restructuring of society involving a serious drop in working hours for much of the population. The trick is to do that without a simultaneous drop in living standards. Maybe there will be a short regression while a global energy shortage and energy source changeover takes place, but the problem will ultimately have to be faced.
Perhaps. but we cannot make meaningful predictions regarding the social effects of such a switchover. We can really only work with what exists when predicting these effects.
Maybe not. Your job isn't the only source of intellectual stimulation in your life (I hope), and for a lot of people it isn't the major one.
I am talking about not only intellectual stimulation, but also life and job satisfaction. Which given current conditions, would be negatively affected by large scale modification of personality traits.
That just increases the timescales. Inevitably they do eventually.
After a LOT of people suffer, and the technology gets even better.
Yep, but do you think the UN or equivalent can really ban it across the whole globe? How many third-world /governments/ would wipe out homosexuality if they could, along with a lot of other 'undesirable' traits?
Naturalistic fallacy again
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:The very question you posited was SHOULD it be illegal. Not whether it realistically would be.
I'm pointing out that there is no practical way to make it illegal, and that this is a good thing because there is no a practical way to come up with a sensible set of laws to do so. Well that and because I'd rather have short term inequality than long term stagnation.
And with automation of those jobs will come low level jobs elsewhere that need to be filled by a person. basic maintainence, record keeping. The list goes on.
No it does not. Automation always reduces the total number of jobs required to produce a certain amount of economic output. The only way to get those jobs 'back' is to increase total economic output, and ultimately you run into limits of consumption and getting enough people paid well enough to buy the extra products.

That's /without/ any sort of AI. As AI advances, 'basic maintainence' gets replaced with robots and 'record keeping' gets replaced with software.
Realistically speaking the need for unskilled or semi-skilled labor will never go away.
It will not vanish (unless we get very cheap human-equivalent robots, or something technologically equivalent, in which case it literally will) but it will massively decrease. A huge number of low-to-no-skill workers will then have welfare (state or private), rich relatives and crime as their only potential sources of income.
Perhaps. but we cannot make meaningful predictions regarding the social effects of such a switchover. We can really only work with what exists when predicting these effects.
Unfortuantely you're basically right, in that even without involving greater-than-human or fundamentally nonhuman intelligences, extrapolating the capital-over-labour trend to the logical conclusion changes the game rules so much that historical precendents are hard to apply. Everyone is guessing about what that kind of society will look like, though some guesses are much more plausible than others.

This is off the point of genetic control and enhancement though and definitely off the point of homosexuality, so I'll skip your other responses.
Yep, but do you think the UN or equivalent can really ban it across the whole globe? How many third-world /governments/ would wipe out homosexuality if they could, along with a lot of other 'undesirable' traits?
Naturalistic fallacy again
No, it's a seperate question; I'm not implying that because some governments will, it's morally right for them to do so. Of course they will probably /claim/ that it's morally right for them to do so, because homosexuality is viewed as evil and/or a crime in many countries and religions.
Post Reply