im back, for today anyway

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-27 09:24am

its been a long time since ive been here. looking at some of these threads, i think a few things need to be addressed.

-first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

-second, the idea of creationism vs science is obselete. the two are not and never were directly opposed. for reference i direct you to 'intelligent design' which is an offshoot of creationism that uses math, science, etc to calculate odds, and from that gather information to the credibility of things. one example is, that scientists have calculated a 1/2% change in the speed in which the universe began expanding after the 'big bang' would have rendered life impossible. from the odds of that, and many other things it would seem that creation was guided, or instigated.

-third, i think its unfair to slander any christians or anyone else, without them here to defend themselves. suffice it to say, there are people in life of every possible category who are cool, and others who give them a bad name. martin luther king jr, sir isaac newton, mother teresa and others who have done good, seem to have no representation.

-fourth, i would like someone to tell me at least 1 thing that evolution has proven. because so far no one has been able to point out 1 thing accepted as a scientific law that has directly stemmed from it. yes there have been fossils found, and other ideologies made from those discoveries but like many things, i think evolution is just an 'interpretation of the facts' which could be correct or flawed.

-fifth, i would like to point out that without direct proof of God's non-existance, what you have is a 'belief-system'. A belief that God does not exist. So, if you're trying to get away from a system of belief it seems odd to form another system of beliefs in its place.

-sixth, if God does not exist.. why bother to make a big deal about it? will the easter bunny, tooty fairy, and santa claus be next?

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-01-27 09:37am

ShAoLiN wrote:its been a long time since ive been here. looking at some of these threads, i think a few things need to be addressed.

-first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

The majority here are rationalists. Faith is irrelevant; whether you include in that faith concepts contradictory to reality is all that matters here. We have Christians, pagans, atheists, bhuddists, and probably a few things in between.

-third, i think its unfair to slander any christians or anyone else, without them here to defend themselves. suffice it to say, there are people in life of every possible category who are cool, and others who give them a bad name. martin luther king jr, sir isaac newton, mother teresa and others who have done good, seem to have no representation.

You have tunnel vision when it comes to this board. Our flames are directed at BAD SCIENCE. Christians are welcome to believe anything they want, but when they declare that their religious myths override reality, we are going to blast it. You have a bad case of 'I see only what I want to see'. No one ever said you were an idiot for being a Christian. We said you were an idiot for declaring that myths override reality in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary.

I'm not even going to start on your other comments about intelligent design and proving tenets of evolution, because you are a troll.

You get full points for gusto, kid, but you are metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. Guess what that means, metaphorically?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-27 09:39am

ShAoLiN wrote:its been a long time since ive been here. looking at some of these threads, i think a few things need to be addressed.

-first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

We're anti-stupidity, not necessarily anti-Christian. In your astounding stupidity, you do not seem to realize that one can have a religion without being an idiot/creationist (for example, just admit that it's an irrational belief system).

-second, the idea of creationism vs science is obselete. the two are not and never were directly opposed. for reference i direct you to 'intelligent design' which is an offshoot of creationism that uses math, science, etc to calculate odds, and from that gather information to the credibility of things. one example is, that scientists have calculated a 1/2% change in the speed in which the universe began expanding after the 'big bang' would have rendered life impossible. from the odds of that, and many other things it would seem that creation was guided, or instigated.

Intelligent Design creationism merely adds a wholly unnecessary term to existing equations, and accomplished nothing except to waste time.

-third, i think its unfair to slander any christians or anyone else, without them here to defend themselves. suffice it to say, there are people in life of every possible category who are cool, and others who give them a bad name. martin luther king jr, sir isaac newton, mother teresa and others who have done good, seem to have no representation.

There are good Christians here. You're not one of them.

-fourth, i would like someone to tell me at least 1 thing that evolution has proven. because so far no one has been able to point out 1 thing accepted as a scientific law that has directly stemmed from it. yes there have been fossils found, and other ideologies made from those discoveries but like many things, i think evolution is just an 'interpretation of the facts' which could be correct or flawed.

The entire fossil record, idiot.

-fifth, i would like to point out that without direct proof of God's non-existance, what you have is a 'belief-system'. A belief that God does not exist. So, if you're trying to get away from a system of belief it seems odd to form another system of beliefs in its place.

Occam's Razor, idiot.

-sixth, if God does not exist.. why bother to make a big deal about it? will the easter bunny, tooty fairy, and santa claus be next?

I hate to break it to you, but the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus don't exist either. And yes, if someone came here saying that it's a "belief system" to disbelieve in them, we would call him an idiot too.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-27 11:19am

And so you're back! From outer space! I just walked in to find you sitting here in this place...I should have thrown away the key...I should have...

Right. Sorry.
(I will survive!)

first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

Fine. Let's put it out in the open.

We're anti-you. Yeah, that's right, bitch. We hate you. All the driving energy of this board is directed to reducing you to a wasted puddle of sniveling crap, which, of course, you already are, albeit not yet in puddle form.

But we're working on it. Bitch.

-second, the idea of creationism vs science is obselete. the two are not and never were directly opposed. for reference i direct you to 'intelligent design' which is an offshoot of creationism that uses math, science, etc to calculate odds, and from that gather information to the credibility of things. one example is, that scientists have calculated a 1/2% change in the speed in which the universe began expanding after the 'big bang' would have rendered life impossible. from the odds of that, and many other things it would seem that creation was guided, or instigated.

Wanking off to idiocy. I never thought it was possible.

-third, i think its unfair to slander any christians or anyone else, without them here to defend themselves. suffice it to say, there are people in life of every possible category who are cool, and others who give them a bad name. martin luther king jr, sir isaac newton, mother teresa and others who have done good, seem to have no representation.

Holy mother of God! I guess you're deaf, dumb, AND blind! Gee, really, are there no Christians here? Wow, and I always thought I was a Christian...thanks for coming here and telling me that I'm really not!

-fourth, i would like someone to tell me at least 1 thing that evolution has proven. because so far no one has been able to point out 1 thing accepted as a scientific law that has directly stemmed from it. yes there have been fossils found, and other ideologies made from those discoveries but like many things, i think evolution is just an 'interpretation of the facts' which could be correct or flawed.

Dammit Wong, this is why we need to hire a translator!

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-27 12:54pm

-sixth, if God does not exist.. why bother to make a big deal about it? will the easter bunny, tooty fairy, and santa claus be next?

If someone had burned people alive in the name of Santa, or launched hypocritical crusades in the name of the Easter Bunny, and then claimed I have no right to claim any pretense of morality because I don't follow their butcher deities, yeah, there'd be a big deal.
And what the fuck is a tooty fairy? An angel of the lord that gives you a penny every time you fart?

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-01-27 01:21pm

ShAoLiN asshole

Go and test your faith Mark 16:17-18

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-27 02:02pm

I'm having a prickling feeling that I should know this person.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2003-01-27 02:40pm

His title is well diserved...

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2003-01-27 04:08pm

ShAoLiN wrote:its been a long time since ive been here. looking at some of these threads, i think a few things need to be addressed.

-first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

The general consenous is that we're anti-idiot, which judging from the rest of the post means we'd be against you.

ShAoLiN wrote:-second, the idea of creationism vs science is obselete. the two are not and never were directly opposed.

Creationism (Which here I will differentiate from thesitic evolution) holds Scripture as the ultimate descripter of reality, as opposed the physical world. Science on the other hand uses the physical world and doesn't hold things as dogma, even for itself.

ShAoLiN wrote:for reference i direct you to 'intelligent design' which is an offshoot of creationism that uses math, science, etc to calculate odds, and from that gather information to the credibility of things. one example is, that scientists have calculated a 1/2% change in the speed in which the universe began expanding after the 'big bang' would have rendered life impossible. from the odds of that, and many other things it would seem that creation was guided, or instigated.

1) Intelligent Design 'Theory' is simply creationists seeing the success of biological evolution and inserting a meaningless 'Me Too' for a Designer. (Usually God, who then doesn't want you to eat fork or use flushable toilets, who then sends you to an equally unverifiable place with lots of fire.) Can you show where Intelligent Design makes a prediction, how anyone would go about proving or disproving it, or anything?

2) Intelligent Design calculations ignore that a structure over generations can serve different purposes and that more complex structures could have simpler counterparts that later can fade away. Also, they needlessly assert that complexity means a better design, and of course other designs can work as well. Can imagine a loser at a card game videotaping his game and calculating the odds of him getting the hands he got, and only those specific hands in the order he got and concluding from the low probability of getting those exact hands that the entire game was rigged? Of course not, but that's how 'Intelligent Design' works.

3) The fact that life as we know it falls within a narrow range of physical parameters should hardly be surprising. Polar bears only live in the Artic, should we conclude that the Artic was designed for polar bears? There are tapeworms that can only live in humans, should we conclude we live for the tapeworm's benefit? Of course not, it's just that the way life it it adapts to it's circumstances often at the cost of it's ability to survive in other circumstances. (In other words, it's impossible to be prepared for everything.) For that matter, do you honesty think physical constants such as c bounce around on whim, and that an intelligent designer of some sort would have the power and inclination to stop it? From what it seems, should we be suprised that we happen to live in a universe that happens to support life?

ShAoLiN wrote:-third, i think its unfair to slander any christians or anyone else, without them here to defend themselves.

Slander, although the word 'Libel' would probably fit better in this case, has to do with lying. What we type here often isn't pretty, but we don't think we're lying either.

ShAoLiN wrote:suffice it to say, there are people in life of every possible category who are cool, and others who give them a bad name. martin luther king jr, sir isaac newton, mother teresa and others who have done good, seem to have no representation.

Oh dear. Not very good choices.

Martin Luther King Jr is actually a good example, (unless if there is something I don't know about, and that still wouldn't invalidate his achivements) although I would disagree with his attitude towards atheism.

Newton was a genius, but he was an asshole as well. See his treatment of Libnitz(sp?) when he thought the other stole his ideas for calculus. (Setting up a mockery of a trial and bragging later he break his(Libnitz) heart.) From what I remember, he also considered his work on alchemy as important as his work in math and physics. While neither his

Mother Teresa may have inspired alot of people, but I hardly would consider her saintly. She willingly let others suffer so that they may convert, kept stolen money, and actually allowed food to rot so that the Sisters of Charity would continue getting donations.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/mother.htm
http://www.population-security.org/swom-96-09.htm

And in the case of the three you mentioned, I doubt it would be a good idea to allow them to defend themselves, seeing that they all are very dead at the moment. Other people are free to go in and talk what they like, but keep in mind we will talk back as we see fit.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Dail ... 30126.html

Please note that rarely you see people flaming people simply because they are Christian - we list specific actions that tick us off, such as
1) Being overtly annoying, like door-to-door salesmen. (Which would be annoying, Christian or no.)
2) Beliving in the literal interpretation of the Bible and abusing science to back it up. (We already heckle those that abuse science in sci-fi debates.)
3) Delaying important research, medical treatments that have very good potential for saving lives and improving the quality of said life. (Recent example being this fugnut here. http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=11142 Other examples include cloning research, painkillers, or blood transfusions.) (Needs no explanation.)

ShAoLiN wrote:-fourth, i would like someone to tell me at least 1 thing that evolution has
proven.

Biological evolution falls into the realm of science. Science does not prove things. Are you talking about what evolutionary theory describes and predicts successfully? Try this :

-How new species form and old ones die.
-Distribution of species throughout the world.
-Fossil Record
-New Bacterial, Insect, etc resistances
-Genetic similarties between related species and dissimilarites between less related ones, despite diverging evolution in the former and parallel evolution in the latter (With accuracy that puts even supercomputer-using physists to shame.)

ShAoLiN wrote:because so far no one has been able to point out 1 thing accepted as a scientific law that has directly stemmed from it. yes there have been fossils found, and other ideologies made from those discoveries but like many things, i think evolution is just an 'interpretation of the facts' which could be correct or flawed.

All science works that way, although you missed out predictive power, Ockham's Razor, etc. Come to think of it, just about every way of looking at the universe is an 'interpretation of the facts' to use your own words, although some facts are obviously misinterpreted.

ShAoLiN wrote:-fifth, i would like to point out that without direct proof of God's non-existance, what you have is a 'belief-system'. A belief that God does not exist. So, if you're trying to get away from a system of belief it seems odd to form another system of beliefs in its place.

How exactly would one go about directly disproving the existence of anything? (Given that some idiots like to assert that God is beyond logic, you can't even use logical contradictions in a specific idea of God against them.) Given this, I would like to propose that the belief that I don't have fairies in my head as a belief-system, with me as the head.

I would like to also point out that not everyone here is an atheist, and being an atheist simply means that you're not a theist - that you have a belief in God/Gods.

ShAoLiN wrote:-sixth, if God does not exist.. why bother to make a big deal about it? will the easter bunny, tooty fairy, and santa claus be next?

If people insisted that the latter exist, yes we should make a big deal about it.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/011203/5/f5ke.html

Here's an article about a teacher that told his class that Santa Claus didn't exist. Of course, not only the teacher got flamed, they also went out of their way to tell that the teacher is wrong, send Santa Claus over, etc etc puke.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-27 04:15pm

What I'm wondering is why a fundie moron would choose shaolin as his username. Or is it more from his depths of stupidity.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-01-27 06:00pm

first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

We're not anti-Christian, or anti-religion. We're simply rational thinkers, and some of these thinkers do have a religion.

fifth, i would like to point out that without direct proof of God's non-existance, what you have is a 'belief-system'. A belief that God does not exist. So, if you're trying to get away from a system of belief it seems odd to form another system of beliefs in its place.

People believe trhat God does not exist because no logical reason for the existance of one has been brought up, and believing that he simpley isn't there is the simpler solution for them.

Anyway, your interpertation of us is very narrow-minded, and based on hasty generalizations and strawmen.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-27 06:05pm

Can he still be classified as a solid? Or have we reduced him to puddle form?

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-01-27 06:36pm

Pff, he can't even spell "classified" correctly. Look at his location. Of yeah, really intelligent person here...

Looks like he's already been torn a new one...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-27 07:06pm

ShAoLiN wrote:its been a long time since ive been here. looking at some of these threads, i think a few things need to be addressed.

-first, i want to know whether the majority here is anti-christian, anti-religion, or anti-anything in general. and if you are, why hide it here on a message board? if you're so convinced about your claimed system of 'beliefs' why not be open about it? add some 'christians suck' banners on the website, maybe then you'll realize how closed minded some of you are being.

1. You assume that we do not criticize religion in real life. This is false.
2. You assume that because a group of us here are atheists, we therefore believe that religion does NO good. This is also false. A nearby church (to where I live), regularly donates money to various charities and makes volunteers available to those charities. I'm always sending people out to do stories there. Although I disagree with their PREMISE for doing this charity work on religious grounds, I cannot disagree with what they do.

-second, the idea of creationism vs science is obselete. the two are not and never were directly opposed. for reference i direct you to 'intelligent design' which is an offshoot of creationism that uses math, science, etc to calculate odds, and from that gather information to the credibility of things. one example is, that scientists have calculated a 1/2% change in the speed in which the universe began expanding after the 'big bang' would have rendered life impossible. from the odds of that, and many other things it would seem that creation was guided, or instigated.

Who cares? Intelligent design is as fraudulent as creationism originally was.

-third, i think its unfair to slander any christians or anyone else, without them here to defend themselves. suffice it to say, there are people in life of every possible category who are cool, and others who give them a bad name. martin luther king jr, sir isaac newton, mother teresa and others who have done good, seem to have no representation.

I hardly believe that anyone here is slandering a particular religious person. Demonstrate the validity of your claim with an example of something that is BOTH not true, AND was stated with a reckless disregard for truth and malicious intent. Moreover, you assume that anyone who happens to be religious is instantly despised. This is obviously a strawman fallacy. Continue to slander various board members, moron.

-fourth, i would like someone to tell me at least 1 thing that evolution has proven. because so far no one has been able to point out 1 thing accepted as a scientific law that has directly stemmed from it. yes there have been fossils found, and other ideologies made from those discoveries but like many things, i think evolution is just an 'interpretation of the facts' which could be correct or flawed.

You ignore the basic scientific principle that evolution is, and never can be more than, a theory. Even if we found it to be true for all things on Earth (and DEMONSTRABLY true), it still would not become a law. There are goals of science other than making things into laws, you know. Your ignorance is astounding.

-fifth, i would like to point out that without direct proof of God's non-existance, what you have is a 'belief-system'. A belief that God does not exist. So, if you're trying to get away from a system of belief it seems odd to form another system of beliefs in its place.

Bullshit. Due to the principle of parsimony we do not believe in anything that has no evidence in favor of it. Do you similarly believe that space aliens routinely visit the Earth to build monuments to their greatness like the Pyramids? Would you similarly believe that pink, flying elephants move around the world constantly without anyone noticing? Of course not. For the same reason, God can be dismissed.

-sixth, if God does not exist.. why bother to make a big deal about it? will the easter bunny, tooty fairy, and santa claus be next?

Who cares? This is a slippery-slope fallacy (or an appeal to magnitude, depending on how you want to read it).

[Vader] You should not have come back. [/Vader]

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-27 07:17pm

If puddles could suck cock, he would be on his knees...

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-01-27 08:53pm

here´s the banner you requested:

Fundies Suck!

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-28 03:51am

<quote>You have tunnel vision when it comes to this board. Our flames are directed at BAD SCIENCE. Christians are welcome to believe anything they want, but when they declare that their religious myths override reality, we are going to blast it. You have a bad case of 'I see only what I want to see'. No one ever said you were an idiot for being a Christian. We said you were an idiot for declaring that myths override reality in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary.

I'm not even going to start on your other comments about intelligent design and proving tenets of evolution, because you are a troll.
</quote>

in the spirit of being a 'rationalist' i have to ask you for an explanation on exactly how i am wrong. otherwise, one might assume that you're reverting to weak insults, because you have no other arguments.

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-28 03:59am

<quote>We're anti-stupidity, not necessarily anti-Christian. In your astounding stupidity, you do not seem to realize that one can have a religion without being an idiot/creationist (for example, just admit that it's an irrational belief system). </quote>

oh, more insults. i came here expecting that youd have grown more intelligent and 'rational' since thats what you claim to represent. and all i get are petty insults. why dont you make yourself useful, wong and show everyone just why, and how i am stupid, use facts to back up your statements.

<quote>Intelligent Design creationism merely adds a wholly unnecessary term to existing equations, and accomplished nothing except to waste time. </quote>

not so, when you have a long list of things that calculations show, were unlikely events; it raises certain possibilities.

<quote>The entire fossil record, idiot. a</quote>

so you're saying, that because someone digs up an old bone, that proves something? admit it, evolution is speculation based on facts, it in itself is not a fact. and you still havent pointed out a single thing evolution has proved.

<quote>Occam's Razor, idiot. </quote>

dunno what that is, but anytime you believe something as fact; without being able to prove it, relinquishes it to something less than fact.

and, why bother with insults? i would think that a true 'rational' or whatver you claim to be, would be able to back his arguments up with facts, figures and science, and would not need to lower himself to petty insults.

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-28 04:06am

<quote>Fine. Let's put it out in the open.

We're anti-you. Yeah, that's right, bitch. We hate you. All the driving energy of this board is directed to reducing you to a wasted puddle of sniveling crap, which, of course, you already are, albeit not yet in puddle form.

But we're working on it. Bitch. </quote>

hate me? you dont even know me. i dont know you either; but looking at that i would think that you're a bitter, unhappy person whos very fustrated, and thinks calling someone a 'bitch' on a message board makes him a tough guy. but i could be wrong.

whatever you claim to represent, i think you're arrogant for thinking you can judge anyone, based on a post.

<quote>
Holy mother of God! I guess you're deaf, dumb, AND blind! Gee, really, are there no Christians here? Wow, and I always thought I was a Christian...thanks for coming here and telling me that I'm really not! </quote>

an angry christian? so what did i do wrong? why do you have to take it personally? or is it that you're just really sensitive, and cant deal with certain perspectives?

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-28 04:09am

<quote>If someone had burned people alive in the name of Santa, or launched hypocritical crusades in the name of the Easter Bunny, and then claimed I have no right to claim any pretense of morality because I don't follow their butcher deities, yeah, there'd be a big deal.
And what the fuck is a tooty fairy? An angel of the lord that gives you a penny every time you fart?</quote>

listen. what about the people who have killed other people because of money? does that mean we should burn all money, and revert to a barter system?

you act as if its only wrong to kill, if you use a deity as an excuse.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-28 04:56am

ShAoLiN wrote:<quote>If someone had burned people alive in the name of Santa, or launched hypocritical crusades in the name of the Easter Bunny, and then claimed I have no right to claim any pretense of morality because I don't follow their butcher deities, yeah, there'd be a big deal.
And what the fuck is a tooty fairy? An angel of the lord that gives you a penny every time you fart?</quote>

listen. what about the people who have killed other people because of money? does that mean we should burn all money, and revert to a barter system?

you act as if its only wrong to kill, if you use a deity as an excuse.

Ok, genius, what exactly are you saying here? Are you presumptuous enough to conclude by my statements that I'm so blind? Only someone of your ilk would make an absurd analogy like that.
One of my problems with christian supremecists is that they will fabricate any excuse to justify their beliefs. The fact that they are trying to convince themselves as much as anyone else is obvious. It must be very uncomfortable being a fanatic in a world where people think differently. There are ways of overcoming this discomfiture other than attempting to change the way other people think and feel.

I wouldn't be suprised if you've never even considered that maybe YOU'RE the one who's wrong.

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-28 05:07am

<quote>The general consenous is that we're anti-idiot, which judging from the rest of the post means we'd be against you.</quote>

so your definition of an 'idiot' must be something like: "idiot - someone who has a different perspective then me, in which case, i will need to act like a 12 year old back in school, and call them silly names, because i cant use a simple statement followed by arguments, system to prove my point of view."

<quote>Creationism (Which here I will differentiate from thesitic evolution) holds Scripture as the ultimate descripter of reality, as opposed the physical world. Science on the other hand uses the physical world and doesn't hold things as dogma, even for itself.</quote>

wrong. i know some people; probably the more unknowledgeable christians might think that, but not all of us do.

<quote>1) Intelligent Design 'Theory' is simply creationists seeing the success of biological evolution and inserting a meaningless 'Me Too' for a Designer. (Usually God, who then doesn't want you to eat fork or use flushable toilets, who then sends you to an equally unverifiable place with lots of fire.) Can you show where Intelligent Design makes a prediction, how anyone would go about proving or disproving it, or anything?</quote>

no, i dont think thats accurate. its more like looking at the odds of certain events happening, and speculation. look at the january edition of scientific america, since if i post other sources, you might think they're biased, but at least that one you'll know is legit. there's an article about intelligent design in there, and its been proven that after the big bang if the speed at which the universe had been expanding was off by 1/2%, life wouldn't have happened period.

when a bunch of longshot events like that happen, you have to wonder whether or not some guiding hand was behind it all; no matter how much you may not like the idea. thats what being open-minded means.

its interesting that in a group of people who claim to be rational, and open minded i get shot down in a flash, just for posting some different perspectives, or ideas.

and that talk of reducing me to a puddle? is that how you deal with people who voice ideas different then your own?

<quote>2) Intelligent Design calculations ignore that a structure over generations can serve different purposes and that more complex structures could have simpler counterparts that later can fade away. Also, they needlessly assert that complexity means a better design, and of course other designs can work as well. Can imagine a loser at a card game videotaping his game and calculating the odds of him getting the hands he got, and only those specific hands in the order he got and concluding from the low probability of getting those exact hands that the entire game was rigged? Of course not, but that's how 'Intelligent Design' works.</quote>

check the january sci-am article. its not a conspiracy, or a fluke. go to www.sciam.com might be easier.

<quote>3) The fact that life as we know it falls within a narrow range of physical parameters should hardly be surprising. Polar bears only live in the Artic, should we conclude that the Artic was designed for polar bears? There are tapeworms that can only live in humans, should we conclude we live for the tapeworm's benefit? Of course not, it's just that the way life it it adapts to it's circumstances often at the cost of it's ability to survive in other circumstances. (In other words, it's impossible to be prepared for everything.) For that matter, do you honesty think physical constants such as c bounce around on whim, and that an intelligent designer of some sort would have the power and inclination to stop it? From what it seems, should we be suprised that we happen to live in a universe that happens to support life?</quote>

when the odds of life occurring in the galaxy are like 1000000 : 1. (probably more than that)id think its obvious. keep in mind that many things are unknown, even in our advanced era. abiogenesis - anyway one of the theories that attempts to show how life came from non-living matter, goes like this, this is their explanation - DNA and other particles - the order and organization that makes them up was created much like how individual snowflakes form. the problem with that is snowflakes are a product of air pressure - and other factors.

while there is no force that has been shown to produce DNA, and other life structures. a great deal of it is speculation.

<quote>Martin Luther King Jr is actually a good example, (unless if there is something I don't know about, and that still wouldn't invalidate his achivements) although I would disagree with his attitude towards atheism.

Newton was a genius, but he was an asshole as well. See his treatment of Libnitz(sp?) when he thought the other stole his ideas for calculus. (Setting up a mockery of a trial and bragging later he break his(Libnitz) heart.) From what I remember, he also considered his work on alchemy as important as his work in math and physics. While neither his

Mother Teresa may have inspired alot of people, but I hardly would consider her saintly. She willingly let others suffer so that they may convert, kept stolen money, and actually allowed food to rot so that the Sisters of Charity would continue getting donations</quote>

lol. you're going to diss newton just because of that? you must be a regular angel; never done anything wrong in your entire life? never made a mistake? so he wasnt perfect, what does that prove?

i wouldnt believe those sources without researching further. mother teresa steal money? why? for her new porsche? let food rot? there might have been other reasons for that; for someone who spent a great deal of her life caring for other people, it wouldnt seem to make sense to allow food to rot, would it?

<quote>And in the case of the three you mentioned, I doubt it would be a good idea to allow them to defend themselves, seeing that they all are very dead at the moment. Other people are free to go in and talk what they like, but keep in mind we will talk back as we see fit.</quote>

maybe.. but for the most part in these posts all i see is talk ragging on christians. no one ever looks at the good things they've done.

<quote>Please note that rarely you see people flaming people simply because they are Christian - we list specific actions that tick us off, such as
1) Being overtly annoying, like door-to-door salesmen. (Which would be annoying, Christian or no.)
2) Beliving in the literal interpretation of the Bible and abusing science to back it up. (We already heckle those that abuse science in sci-fi debates.)
3) Delaying important research, medical treatments that have very good potential for saving lives and improving the quality of said life. (Recent example being this fugnut here. <http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=11142> Other examples include cloning research, painkillers, or blood transfusions.) (Needs no explanation.) </quote>

when i come here, and see people complain about christians are narrow-minded, insulting, disrespectful. then turn around and start ragging on christianity or creationism, just as bad as some christians rag on other things. ill say something. then you can either flame me, or whatever. but it needed to be brought up. because if i was being an asshole, i would want someone to tell me.

i dont agree with a lot of the things people do in the name of religion. in a lot of cases i think people use the names of gods or anything else as an excuse, to satisfy their own agenda. in the way that the KKK uses the color of a person's skin as an excuse to oppress others, or people use sexual orientation - homosexuality as an excuse to do whatever.

it doesnt necessarily mean that all religion is a sham.

<quote>Biological evolution falls into the realm of science. Science does not prove things. Are you talking about what evolutionary theory describes and predicts successfully? Try this :

-How new species form and old ones die.
-Distribution of species throughout the world.
-Fossil Record
-New Bacterial, Insect, etc resistances
-Genetic similarties between related species and dissimilarites between less related ones, despite diverging evolution in the former and parallel evolution in the latter (With accuracy that puts even supercomputer-using physists to shame.)</quote>

those are all theories or speculations based on fact. nothing has been proven.

<quote>How exactly would one go about directly disproving the existence of anything? (Given that some idiots like to assert that God is beyond logic, you can't even use logical contradictions in a specific idea of God against them.) Given this, I would like to propose that the belief that I don't have fairies in my head as a belief-system, with me as the head.</quote>

if you cant use fact, try odds based on probability. like, looking at ancient greek mythology/religion, i think that its a fluke; just because the odds of gods defining their roles of power, or territories based on human perceptions such as goddess of love, god of underworld and so on.. would seem to be something designed to explain, or deal with things from a human perspective.

if you were a group of gods would you define your territories or limits of influence by how humans see the world?

seriously if you could come up with something like that concerning christianity, that would be a far stronger argument, then calling someone a bitch or idiot.

<quote>I would like to also point out that not everyone here is an atheist, and being an atheist simply means that you're not a theist - that you have a belief in God/Gods</quote>

i dont have a problem with atheists, or any group or people, or individuals. i talk to atheists, even satanists and others all the time. and, i never insult any of them, or disrespect them. but, in the case of SD.net, with people posting things about fundies and in some cases flaming christianity or religion in general, you cant really complain about someone pointing out certain issues.

<quote>Here's an article about a teacher that told his class that Santa Claus didn't exist. Of course, not only the teacher got flamed, they also went out of their way to tell that the teacher is wrong, send Santa Claus over, etc etc puke.</quote>

well, at least it wasnt a christian; trying to prove God exists or something.

<quote>People believe trhat God does not exist because no logical reason for the existance of one has been brought up, and believing that he simpley isn't there is the simpler solution for them.

Anyway, your interpertation of us is very narrow-minded, and based on hasty generalizations and strawmen.</quote>

well. now you just need your supporting sentences and facts to back up that statement. and dont post if you're just going to insult, i want some solid arguments from 'rational' 'open-minded' people, not some petty insults.

also, i dont think you can call me narrow-minded, when you cant even reply to a post without spouting senseless drivel, such as 'bitch' 'idiot' etc, etc.

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-01-28 05:09am

and im not a fundamentalist.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-28 05:59am

ShAoLiN wrote:and im not a fundamentalist.

Hehehe, this was really funny because I'm reminded of Nixon's "I am not a crook"

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-01-28 09:15am

Shaolin, you ask why you are wrong. Here's why in a nutshell: You're suggesting that SD.net is anti-christian. The problem with that is that 1) we have Christian members and 2) we've said as much that we're not.

Several responses should have indicated to you that many members here do not disapprove of organized religion, of people assembling as a community to profess their beliefs in otherworldly bogey men. That's their right, and it harms no one. In fact, as some have pointed out, we acknowledge the charitable contributions that many community churches make and advocate the good that they do. This is the important part: When we say bad things about Christians, it is usually in light of one of two things they do: 1) Try to convert us, which we have every right to hate as much as we hate telemarketers trying to convince us that we need insurance, and 2) attempt to impede or contest scientific progress, as if they have a right to obliterate any knowledge which they do not 'believe in'.

As for the your request that I prove that your claims about intelligent design are wrong, it is a very time-consuming thing to do. You claim that if one does not ladel out proofs, that we are admitting defeat. Please tell me you understand that silence is not in indication of concession, and is in fact in this case an indication of frustration, because we explain this very thing EVERY DAY, and in fact, this site contains both detailed explanations of AND links to sites which provide carefully thought-out essays and criticisms on the so-called 'intelligent design theory'. If you claim that we need to re-write these arguments for you, we are bound to get annoyed with you, because we know full well that the answers in proofs you are demanding exist, and if you ask NICELY for them, I'm sure that someone here will, between flames, post you a link so that you can go educate yourself.

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