A legal and ethical delimma of the future.

[Gil Hamilton]

The year is around 2040. A landmark case in New York is happened, centering around a sixteen year old boy in high school. This boy, named Adam, is quite popular, he's athletic, egalitarian, in the Boy Scouts of America, church going, never touched drugs or alcohol, has a girlfriend and keeps his grades reasonably high. Unfortunately, Adam has a problem. He runs competitively on the school track team and is incredible, basically heads and shoulders above the other people in his district. A newspaper ran an article on him, when he became the city champion in Track and Field, and brought up a secret leaked to the newspaper by a close family member that had long been out of the publics mind.

Adam was genetically modified.

After some poking, Adam's parents told the tale. Seventeen years ago, Adams mother was infertile and desperate to have children. They went to a doctor in the Netherlands, who had studied genetics and cloning, who had successfully cloned dozens of ova from the mother. On top of that, the doctor and his team asked the parents if they could preform a new procedure. With detailed studies of the human genome, geneticists had a fairly certain which genes within the body allowed a person to be predisposed to an athletic body along with the basis for a person to be predisposed to high intelligence. Having successfully transplanted such genes to chimpanzees and other higher life with a 98.9% success rate, the doctors were ready to make the attempt on human beings. So with the parents consent, the doctors took several of the ova and preformed the procedure. It was, in fact, a stunning success.

With the ova inside of the mother and she being pregnant, finally, they returned to their homes in Virginia. Eventually, since it was in all the presses that she was pregnant with a cloned child, they eventually had to move from their residence since they had been targetted with large amounts of harrassment by various extremist groups. It was not then known by the press then that the baby had genes predisposed toward athleticism and intelligence, the doctor wanted to have several cases of success before he published his findings. This was probably for the best. So they settled in New York and out of the public eye. That was sixteen years ago and up in till that now, no one except family members and some close relations had any idea of the details of Adams conception.

In the backlash of the article and interview, there has been large outrage, both locally and abroad. Aside from the large amount of harrassment and even a couple death threats the family has received, several parents of children in his school district (these children competed against him) are suing to have Adam disallowed from any school competitions, claiming that since Adam was successfully modified towards athleticism and intelligence, it would be unfair toward the other children competing, citing that Adam never failed to place in the top three of any track and field competition since his freshman year in high school. His family are attempting to fight this decision, on the basis that he is an American citizen with the same rights and privileges as any citizen, and it is unfair to discriminate against Adam on the basis of his different conception or his genes, citing a Supreme Court case twenty-four years ago, which stated that clones have the same rights as people of natural conception and that it is illegal to discrimintate against people of "differing conception".

This case has become incredibly high profile, having been taken to the Supreme Court, as a heated public debate has arrived. The ACLU has already offered to pay for legal bills and the lawyers to represent Adam, despite huge opposition to the boy. Adding to this, Adam's mother was also assaulted in a markerplace by a man, claiming that she "was the cow who gave birth to a child of Satan", whose court date is pending.

The question, which I leave to you, is the outcome of the case. To summerize, the case itself is whether Adam should or should not be allowed to compete in any school competitions. In a larger since, this will be a large legal precident, since there has never before been a case involving genetically modified individuals, and will set a precedent that will undoubtably effect many lives, as more and more couples are going to Europe to for a similiar procedure. Keep in mind the previous Supreme Court decision that states that it is illegal to unfairly discriminate against individuals of "differing conception". Also, please explain your decision in detail, and not put forth such comments like "SPAWN OF SATAN! KILL IT.".

Discuss.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I beleive a case like this would be similar to a student taking performance-enchancing drugs. However, since he didn't choose to be modified, the parents should get any punishment. I don't think Adam should be able to compete, since it would be unfair to the other students, but if there are other modified kids like him, they could for some sort of league he could play in.

[haas mark]

I'm a bit hesitant to which I should vote for, but I'm more inclined to say that it is unrealistic for him to compete as he is, if you will, a GMO. As such, it makes it less fair for individuals that are "homegrown," if you will, to compete. He seemingly would win most, if not all, competitions, thus monopolizing the sport. Could do one of two things, however, if he did play:

A) Could inspire athletes to try to be like that
B) Could discourage athletes from playing.

I think it is a matter of keeping the majority happy, maybe, but I am nopt sure. This is a tough question, indeed. Although, it could be that the individual's happiness (Adam's) could also affect other's feelings; sympathy, regret, guilt, etc. Who knows?

[The Dark]

There may be a difference here between the legal and the ethical (not sure where I am on the ethical yet, maybe I'll know by the time I get there).

Legally, the Supreme Court case you made up and put in the argument means that the Court, according to precedent, should allow Adam to continue competing. No discrimination is supposed to mean just that.

Ethically, I'm not sure. As has been said many times, genetics is only a small part of our make-up. He may have been predisposed towards athleticism, but many other people have the athletic genes as well. There's a limit on how far you can carry equal opportunity before it begins discriminating against those who are just more capable. I suppose I would say let him compete, since the genetics are (presumably) still human, and thus his capabilities are only human. If we start saying that the best can't compete, then it's essentially a moral socialism, where all work according to their ability, but are paid only according to their need.

[XPViking]

citing a Supreme Court case twenty-four years ago, which stated that clones have the same rights as people of natural conception and that it is illegal to discrimintate against people of "differing conception". - Gil

But I only see here that only the process (cloning or natural birth) should not be discriminated against, as per Gil's made up Supreme Court case. That is, the types of genes involved coupled with the "new procedure" seem to be the basis for discrimination and class division.

I think what makes everyone uncomfortable is that the genes that made Adam had a high possibility of turning out a superior person. In other words, the game appears to be rigged. If the mother just cloned her baby without the "new procedure" then I don't see a problem.

On the other hand, to what extent are we genetically modified already? Should athletes not marry eachother since they might have a higher probability of turning out athletic kids that might beat normal kids?

Personally, I can't blame Adam here. He didn't choose to be what he is. If the court case goes against him, then he would be outcast from the rest of society, which I think is bad. If it goes in his favour, then I fear that the current division between the rich and poor would be reinforced. After all, take a look at our top athletes today. Mind you, there is nothing here saying that genetically-modified humans can't be used for good purposes.

Would I want my own son to compete against a genetically-modified child? Probably not, unless there is a way to set some limits in the sport itself. After all, when I played football a long time ago, there were height, weight, and age limits strictly adhered to in order to prevent injury. So if there is a genetically-modified football league but a "homegrown" kid can cut the mustard, then why not?

XPViking

[Darth Wong]

Selective breeding is genetic modification; it is a form of evolutionary selection. Does this mean that if superb athletes marry and have kids, their kids shouldn't be allowed to compete?

[Sea Skimmer]

Public school competitions, yes he should believe to compete. However I believe exclusion from privately run competitions would be acceptable.

[Strafe]

He should be able to compete, as it is not his fault that he was genetically modified prior to birth.

Whether it was ethical or not to have such a procedure applied to him is another matter, but given that he had no choice in the matter, should he be punished?

The idea of complete equal competition also seems to be flawed. It seems by that logic that anyone who trains longer than someone else in some sort of competition should be banned simply for making things unequal. Same idea here.

Now, for example, if he was 20 years old and he had some future tech. which altered his body to have enhanced speed and whatnot, and he made the conscious decision to undertake such a procedure, then he should be disallowed from competeing as it is no different from having taken performance enhancing drugs and whatnot.

[XPViking]

Selective breeding is genetic modification; it is a form of evolutionary selection. Does this mean that if superb athletes marry and have kids, their kids shouldn't be allowed to compete? - Darth Wong

I agree with what you're saying here. That is, kids of superb athletes should be able to compete against regular kids even though genetically they may be more predisposed towards athleticism. I think the issue here is that Adam's parents explicity engaged in a procedure that had a high probablitiy of turning out a superior child. I suppose we do that, but perhaps not so overtly. After all, when I married my wife I wasn't thinking that my son will be an all-Canadian football player. I think the ethical concerns arise when you have people willingly wanting genetically-modified children rather than letting nature take its course.

Mind you, I'm all for Adam competing at school as long as some limits are placed to try to reduce injury.

Another issue would be this: should genetically-enhanced children be made public knowledge or should it be kept private?

XPViking

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm with Sea Skimmer; the federal government, in this case, would have a legal obligation to allow him to compete. The private sector, however, would not.

Morally he deserves to in either case, though, but the legal consideration is paramount and a just compromise (And probably the one that would come about).

Ultimately, if you don't like it, just have your kids genetically modified too!

[Enlightenment]

As a GMO, Adam would be the patented intellectual property of the biotech corporation which designed his genome. His legal right to compete would depend on if his creators could pour more money into the legal and legislative processes than could the entities who believe Adam should be denied the right to compete.

[Gil Hamilton]

As a GMO, Adam would be the patented intellectual property of the biotech corporation which designed his genome. His legal right to compete would depend on if his creators could pour more money into the legal and legislative processes than could the entities who believe Adam should be denied the right to compete.

I think that the made up supreme court scenario that confirmed clones and people of "differing conceptions" are citizens with the same rights et cetera as other people would effectively eliminate Adam as property of the biotech corporation that studied and altered his genome.

[Edi]

Enlightenment, you cannot patent a specific human genome (as in an individual), and even if you can, that patent gives that biotech corporation no rights whatsoever to determine that individual's behavior, choices or anything else about him/her, because as a person s/he is entitled to the rights granted by the constitution.

This is a very straightforward case, he should be allowed to compete. Tough luck, but we are NOT born equal, with equal physical and mental potential, and in addition to that, even the activities we engage in during early childhood have more of an effect on us than some genetic predisposition. If you do sports from an early age, you will have better coordination and faster reflexes and you will quite possibly be stringer than someone who did not, while if you study a lot from early age and read, you will most likely develop a more active imagination and better language skills and more easily achieve higher education than someone who does not. That's the way it happens, because those choices affect development, even though they are not absolutes, you can and do have individuals who will be good at both, but they are rarely the absolute top in either category.

Boo-fucking-hoo for the whiners in this case.

Edi

[Lagmonster]

Conditioning is conditioning. We strap our athletes into machines designed to sculpt and design their musculature. We feed them chemicals and specially prepared diets to help them perform. We give them training and equipment and assistance.

Besides which, I don't see much difference between a person born with a gifted physical ability to someone who was intended to have a gifted physical ability.

That said, if you were treading into sci-fi territory and designing physically dominant species of neo-sapiens with bodies that look like ours, but are inside so radically different from ours that interbreeding was nearly impossible, then you're needing some serious descrimination, unless we start admitting cheetahs into sprinting competitions and gorillas into weightlifting competitions.

[His Divine Shadow]

The year is around 2040. A landmark case in New York is happened, centering around a sixteen year old boy in high school. This boy, named Adam, is quite popular, he's athletic, egalitarian, in the Boy Scouts of America, church going,

Well first off all, hopefully by 2040AD things like religion have been relegated to cult status in a majorly atheistic and secular society.
Well atleast that seems to be where scandinavia is heading...

Adding to this, Adam's mother was also assaulted in a markerplace by a man, claiming that she "was the cow who gave birth to a child of Satan", whose court date is pending

Secondly, hopefully in this secular society people like this are gone, or extremely rare.

[irishmick79]

The problem is that big time athletics in the United States rewards high performance to the umpteenth degree. Adam would have the competitive balance tipped in his favor, and his success in the US would reap him MILLIONS of dollars in advertisement deals and potential pro-sport contracts. And that is what makes his competing inherently unfair to the other participants. He has an advantage that nobody else would have, and an advantage that nobody else could get without taking some sort of performance-enhancing drugs or genetic modification.

[Lagmonster]

The problem is that big time athletics in the United States rewards high performance to the umpteenth degree. Adam would have the competitive balance tipped in his favor...

HOW? He's fast and strong. I will, however, produce examples of humans who were independantly faster or stronger than Adam in this example. And the catch is this: The most finely gifted physical human specimen is not going to automatically be a better athlete than someone who has TRAINED their whole lives in their discipline. That's like saying that the Japanese are automatically capable of being better martial artists than any westerner. Adam might be fast and strong, but does that mean he's going to break MacGuire's record? Or Tiger Wood's? Raw ability means SHIT.

[irishmick79]

Raw natural ability does NOT mean shit. Just take one look at guys like Shaquille O'neal and Randy Moss. Sure you need training to fine tune and harness your natural abilities, but the more natural ability you have, the quicker the learning curve is. And that makes all the difference in the world.

[Lagmonster]

Raw natural ability does NOT mean shit. Just take one look at guys like Shaquille O'neal and Randy Moss. Sure you need training to fine tune and harness your natural abilities, but the more natural ability you have, the quicker the learning curve is. And that makes all the difference in the world.

I agree that natural talent helps you apply what you learn faster, but anyone can be conditioned to perform at a high level, if they're willing to commit their life to the persuit of athletics. The world record for most baskets sunk in an hour was, as I recall from an episode of Ripley's Believe It Or Not, held by a short, arthritic, pasty old white guy who happens to be a really good shot.

Anyway, this gets aside from the issue here, which is that people are idiots. There's no difference in what has been done to Adam than if two top athletes bred. We do it to horses all the time, and no one cares.

[irishmick79]

Anyway, this gets aside from the issue here, which is that people are idiots. There's no difference in what has been done to Adam than if two top athletes bred. We do it to horses all the time, and no one cares.

That's not exactly clear in this case. And there's a big difference between fertilizing a previously infirtile mother and getting two people to mate. Because of that, you can't really make a strong argument that the two are no different from each other.

[Lagmonster]

And there's a big difference between fertilizing a previously infirtile mother and getting two people to mate. Because of that, you can't really make a strong argument that the two are no different from each other.

Yes, I can, because we're talking about the kid, not the parents. The morality of impregnating a woman artificially isn't in question.

We're assuming that a human being's physical traits are the result of specific genetic code. People in this case are in an uproar because this human's traits were determined by scientists. But those same people aren't going to flip out when nature herself comes up with an even more physically impressive human, or a deformed and grotesque human for that matter. Tinkering with genes is tinkering with genes, and you are deliberately dabbling in genetic modification every time you have sex.

In fact, one could argue that the scientists hold superior moral ground in this case. Unlike Nature, they have not allowed the product offspring to be born with genetic disorders, predispositions to certain ailments, handicaps, or organs which do not work optimally (think eyes requiring glasses). Nature is far less generous when it comes to tinkering with genes.

As for 'whether he should be allowed to compete in sports or not', that question is for me answered in the same manner. As long as Adam is still a member of Homo Sapiens, he is nothing that we couldn't come up with or surpass via selective breeding or plain old time and chance. He should be disallowed from sports at the same time that Shaq should be disallowed from basketball for having a genetic advantage of height.

[Admiral Valdemar]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=43731

Well all my views are in the original thread, notice Es making an ass of himself again.

[InnerBrat]

OK, to exclude Adam from sports is discrimination.

Ifit's considered unfair, non-GM athletes should compete in a separate league if they continue to whine.

Like women's events or paralympics.

[RedImperator]

All Adam was given were genes that predisposed him to athleticism. How does that make him different from, say, Donovan McNabb, who was born with the natural speed and arm strength to be an NFL quarterback? He still has to train to be a good runner, still has to practice, still has to study to be a good student. No, it's not fair that some people are faster and smarter than others, but you don't see the NBA banning Allen Iverson from playing because he's faster and more talented than me.

[irishmick79]

The morality of impregnating a woman artificially isn't in question.

Yes, but it's an underlying factor that will affect EVERYTHING about Adam. If Adam's mother was not artificially impregnated, Adam's birth probably would not have been possible. Because of this, you could argue that adam's natural athletic abilities would not be possible without artificial enhancement at the hands of genetic scientists. Given the reluctance of the sports world to accept other artificial performance enhancers like anabolic steroids and the rest, you could make an argument that Adam's participation in athletic events with non-engineered youth would damage the integrity of the sport, and would create an unreasonably high standards for non-engineered humans to attain.