Japanese Zero returns - and gets sneaky

[rhoenix]

This might be old news to avid readers of slashdot.org, but the implications of this made me wonder.

TOKYO: Japan is set to develop its own next-generation stealth fighter jets to reduce its dependence on foreign technology and counter similar moves by China and Russia, a news report said Saturday.

Japan, which wants to replace its aging fighter fleet, has also made overtures to Washington on the possibility of purchasing the U.S. F-22 Raptor stealth fighter.

However, the U.S. Congress has repeatedly banned the sale of the plane to any foreign government, in an attempt to safeguard the country's advanced technology.

Japan's Defense Ministry now aims to test its own prototype stealth jet — fitted with a domestic engine, advanced control system and radar-jamming device — within five years, the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper reported, citing a budget plan submitted Friday by the ministry.

A mock-up has already undergone preliminary ground tests in France, the report said. Friday's decision by the ministry to push ahead with the multibillion-yen (multimillion-dollar; multimillion-euro) project means developers will start working toward flight tests, with production in about 10 years, it said.

Japan hopes that having its own domestic stealth fighter jet would mean it would not have to rely on foreign governments for key military technology, the report said.

Homegrown stealth capabilities would also likely help Japan enhance its radar systems to counter regional rivals China and Russia, which are thought to be developing their own stealth jets, the paper said.

An official on duty at the ministry on Saturday said he was unaware of the project. He refused to give his name, citing policy.

Japan's air force has been searching for replacements for its aging fleet of F-4s and F-15s. Options include three U.S.-made planes — the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the F-18 and advanced F-15s — as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon.

But a purchase from Washington has been hindered by its export ban, imposed in part over reluctance to share sensitive military technology with foreign governments.

Japanese navy computers' recent leak of data from a joint U.S.-Japan AEGIS radar system has also spurred U.S. concerns over sharing information with Tokyo.

On Friday, Japan and the U.S. signed a military data protection pact that tightens controls on the handling of classified information from one another's militaries.

The moves come as Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe seeks to bolster the country's defense coordination with the U.S.

Washington has about 50,000 troops based in Japan, its top ally in Asia, under a mutual security pact.

Further elaboration:

The Mitsubishi 3000GT sports car was sold in the US as the Dodge Stealth, but now the company has moved up to the real thing.

Japan's Technical Research & Development Institute (TRDI) recently unveiled images of the Mitsubishi ATD-X stealth fighter in the form of a full-scale radar cross-section (RCS) model. One picture was released a few months ago by TRDI, but has now disappeared from their site. Other images can be found here. They include a presentation slide confirming that France has been supporting the Japanese stealth program: between September and November 2005, the model was tested in the French government's radar cross-section (RCS) range. Other features of the twin-engine jet include thrust vectoring with external paddles, an F-22-like external shape, fly-by-light controls and the testing of a smart-skin sensor.

In some ways the ATD-X project is comparable to BAE Systems' Replica stealth demonstration in the mid-1990s. It's not likely that the Japanese government will fund the development of an operational stealth fighter, but the domestic capability may be used to ease US concerns about exporting its own stealth aircraft to Japan. Further down the road, too, the same technology could be used in other systems such as cruise missiles or unmanned air vehicles.

Using the French range is logical. At Bruz, near Rennes, France's DGA defense agency's CELAR (center for military electronics) laboratory constructed the Solange indoor RCS range. A photo found here shows that Solange may be the biggest indoor RCS range in the world, capable of measuring a real fighter rather than a subscale mock-up. The same site also confirms that Solange was built with the help of a US company, absorber specialist Emerson & Cuming.

Given the events of WWII, it seems that Japan might be testing it's "self-defense" limits a bit far - but what do you think the implications are of a Japanese-built stealth fighter, apparently deliberately designed to be a competitor for the American F-22 Raptor?

(The only reason this was posted here and not in HAB as this is a fighter, and doesn't quite qualify as "heavy." Besides, the sociological implications of this range much further than merely technology.)

[PeZook]

Given the events of WWII, it seems that Japan might be testing it's "self-defense" limits a bit far - but what do you think the implications are of a Japanese-built stealth fighter, apparently deliberately designed to be a competitor for the American F-22 Raptor?

It's a fighter. How does it test "self-defense" limits? The fact it's a competition to the F-22 only means that Japan is moving on with the times. What, only the US is allowed to have next-generation stealth fighters now?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Given the events of WWII, it seems that Japan might be testing it's "self-defense" limits a bit far - but what do you think the implications are of a Japanese-built stealth fighter, apparently deliberately designed to be a competitor for the American F-22 Raptor?

(The only reason this was posted here and not in HAB as this is a fighter, and doesn't quite qualify as "heavy." Besides, the sociological implications of this range much further than merely technology.)

It says they're using a Radar Jammer instead of RAM, if that's true then it's going to be closer to the EA-18G Growler (Basically an electronic warfare upgrade of the two-seated Hornet) than the Raptor, and much easier to deal with.

[K. A. Pital]

What, only the US is allowed to have next-generation stealth fighters now?

The PNAC, which thoroughly controls the ideology of modern American administration, holds such views exactly: unquestioned economic and military dominance of America.

[FSTargetDrone]

Given the events of WWII, it seems that Japan might be testing it's "self-defense" limits a bit far - but what do you think the implications are of a Japanese-built stealth fighter, apparently deliberately designed to be a competitor for the American F-22 Raptor?

Would you be as concerned if Germany was developing its own domestic fighter plane? Why shouldn't Japan design and build its own weapons? Are you concerned that is might sell such weapons to "unfriendly" nations?

[rhoenix]

It's a fighter. How does it test "self-defense" limits? The fact it's a competition to the F-22 only means that Japan is moving on with the times. What, only the US is allowed to have next-generation stealth fighters now?

Of course not. But the important point is that Japan made overtures to the US to purchase F-22's, was turned down, and now Mitsubishi is apparently making their own.

That China and Russia are also getting on the stealth fighter bandwagon does help Japan's move make more sense, but what do you think the outcome of this will be?

[K. A. Pital]

That China and Russia are also getting on the stealth fighter bandwagon does help Japan's move make more sense, but what do you think the outcome of this will be?

Simple: China, Russia and Japan will uprgade their fighter force. Oh how scary.

[rhoenix]

It says they're using a Radar Jammer instead of RAM, if that's true then it's going to be closer to the EA-18G Growler (Basically an electronic warfare upgrade of the two-seated Hornet) than the Raptor, and much easier to deal with.

That I apparently missed - the implication from the second article seems to imply that it has a low radar profile, given the tests done in France.

Would you be as concerned if Germany was developing its own domestic fighter plane?

The implication of your question is that somehow I feel threatened by Japan having their own stealth fighters, which isn't the case. The thread title was a tongue-in-cheek joke, given an article whose content I didn't post, due to lack of real information and content apart from "ohnoes! teh zero iz back!!11" but was from the same slashdot posting.

However, I'll answer the letter of this question - I would feel as curious if Germany were to do so, just as I would feel curious if any other nation did so.

Why shouldn't Japan design and build its own weapons?

I don't recall implying that they shouldn't. The main point of my posting the article was to see what others' opinions would be about the socio-political impact of this, given that China and Russia are doing the same.

Are you concerned that is might sell such weapons to "unfriendly" nations?

I sincerely doubt they'd sell the planes to other nations, given the secrecy involved so far. And given that "unfriendly" nations in the current climate is mostly limited to the countries in the Middle East, this question I feel completely missed the point of why I posted the articles in the first place.

To clarify: Given that China & Russia are already developing their own stealth fighter program, what do you suppose the impact of Japan making their own will be?

[rhoenix]

Simple: China, Russia and Japan will uprgade their fighter force. Oh how scary.

*chuckle*

And Stas answers the question in the most concise manner possible. Bless you, sir - that's what I was looking for.

[PeZook]

Of course not. But the important point is that Japan made overtures to the US to purchase F-22's, was turned down, and now Mitsubishi is apparently making their own.

Which is only natural. Their most probable enemies are going for it, so they want some, too.

Would you be concerned if Japan started an upgrade program of their SAM network, too? Fighters are an integral part of air defense, of course Japan will want some good ones. Though to be honest, Mitsubishi didn't make a fighter in 50 years, so I don't think they're up to the task of designing a completely new airframe by themselves.

That China and Russia are also getting on the stealth fighter bandwagon does help Japan's move make more sense, but what do you think the outcome of this will be?

A minor arms race in the region.

[rhoenix]

Would you be concerned if Japan started an upgrade program of their SAM network, too? Fighters are an integral part of air defense, of course Japan will want some good ones.

In re-reading my OP, I can see now where the implication was that I was "concerned," but I assure you (and all other readers) that it was not intentional. This thread was borne purely out of intellectual curiosity.

To more directly answer your question, I wouldn't be anywhere near as curious, unless the SAM network had the potential to push the technology envelope.

Though to be honest, Mitsubishi didn't make a fighter in 50 years, so I don't think they're up to the task of designing a completely new airframe by themselves.

This actually raises an interesting question, as the 50 year gap in fighter design refinement does seem curious.

That China and Russia are also getting on the stealth fighter bandwagon does help Japan's move make more sense, but what do you think the outcome of this will be?

A minor arms race in the region.

Which would therefore have the possibility of pushing things technologically, which does make me curious.

[Sea Skimmer]

50 year gap hun? Then please explain the Mitsubishi F-1 and F-2 fighters, entering service in 1978 and 2000 respectively?

Now the F-2 was just an F-16 redesign, which saw its unit cost increase 1000% before the order was severally curtailed, but that was mainly because the initial cost estimate was just insane. The semi failure of that program has directly led to this Japanese requirement for a new fighter. The F-1 was a totally indigenous design and worked quite well.

If they do go ahead with this project, it will be insanely expensive for what it produces, and the stealth features are likely to be on par with Eurofighter, not F-22, but it should end up being more then effective enough.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If they do go ahead with this project, it will be insanely expensive for what it produces, and the stealth features are likely to be on par with Eurofighter, not F-22, but it should end up being more then effective enough.

Is it because European stealth is behind the US? Or are the materials too classified to share with Japan?

[Sea Skimmer]

They haven’t put the money and time into it, and neither Europe or Japan are going to do that anytime soon. Just look at the way its broken the USAF budget, and that was coming from a much larger and better established development base. The US certainly won’t be sharing manufacturing technology, that would give away far more then selling the completed aircraft.

Going part of the way as the Eurofighter did save a great deal of money, it might not save time, and requires fewer compromises in other important areas of aircraft design The first 95% of stealth that might drop radar direction range from say 200 down to 50 miles is easy enough to figure out. It’s the last 5% that drops from saw 50 miles to 5 miles that’s the bitch to do.

Just think about how hard it is to make a plane you can fly every day which doesn’t have a single crack or gap anywhere on its external surface. That’s what the F-22 has, while the earlier B-2 literally has to have all the gaps around access panels patched with putty and RAM every single time any work is done on it.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Here's a pic from the aviation week site

[FSTargetDrone]

To clarify: Given that China & Russia are already developing their own stealth fighter program, what do you suppose the impact of Japan making their own will be?

Apologies for misinterpreting the post. I'll leave these answers to your question to the people here more knowledgeable about this sort of thing.

And about the pictures above, it's a mini, streamlined Firefox!

[Admiral Valdemar]

Here's a pic from the aviation week site

[img]*Snip*[/img]

Copy cats. Can't they produce an original design like Yukikaze or Macross had? I know the F-22 is a great design (bloody should be for the expense), but I don't want the air forces of tomorrow being comprised of dozens of various takes on the Raptor's frame.

At least Replica was somewhat different in looks.

[Nathaniel]

Yeah, but the Raptor's sexy. I wouldn't mind seeing that as a theme for the next generation of fighters. Better than the Eurofighter anyway.

[Patrick Degan]

Sleek looking plane. Count on the Japanese to produce a stealth fighter with style.

Now, if it can transform into a huge robot, that would be the icing on the cake.

[Admiral Valdemar]

So then rent out Starscream. Then all you have to worry about is backstabbings, not technical issues.

[rhoenix]

Apologies for misinterpreting the post. I'll leave these answers to your question to the people here more knowledgeable about this sort of thing.

No worries, and no harm done - it just made me blink for a second, and made me think "Wait, what?"

Your post also allowed me to clarify my OP, so I'll consider that good done.

And about the pictures above, it's a mini, streamlined Firefox!

Man, if only. Can you imagine a stealth fighter capable of Mach 5+? I wouldn't care what nation was behind it - the concept is just plain cool.

[FSTargetDrone]

And about the pictures above, it's a mini, streamlined Firefox!

Man, if only. Can you imagine a stealth fighter capable of Mach 5+? I wouldn't care what nation was behind it - the concept is just plain cool.

Remember, "You must think in Russian, er, Japanese!"

[VF5SS]

Remember, "You must think in Russian, er, Japanese!"

[url=http://www.un-spacy-qmtdb.com/Macross%20Plus/yf-21.htm]Japan has announced the development of the YF-21 Stealth Variable Fighter.[/ur]

[Ritterin Sophia]

It says they're using a Radar Jammer instead of RAM, if that's true then it's going to be closer to the EA-18G Growler (Basically an electronic warfare upgrade of the two-seated Hornet) than the Raptor, and much easier to deal with.

That I apparently missed - the implication from the second article seems to imply that it has a low radar profile, given the tests done in France.

That's not surprising. Their current secondary fighter, the Mitsubishi F-2 is a Japanese-American design that started development based on the F-16 through the late eighties until it's maiden flight in 1995 and production began in 1996. Shortly before development for the fighter began, the F-16C Block 30/32 was coming out, which used shaping techniques to reduce it's radar cross section, more than likely included in the F-2.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Copy cats. Can't they produce an original design like Yukikaze or Macross had? I know the F-22 is a great design (bloody should be for the expense), but I don't want the air forces of tomorrow being comprised of dozens of various takes on the Raptor's frame.

At least Replica was somewhat different in looks.

The F-22 was in development for over twenty years, it's not surprising that it's shape is the best for reducing an aircrafts cross-section on radar. That would appear to be the case since the Raptor, the Lightning II, the artistic rendering of the PAK FA, and the KFX-101 Concept all look very similair at a glance.

I'm not even going to bother to include the J-XX since all of China's planes are either stripped down KNAAPO builds or indigenous builds of older aircraft made with crappy materials.