Pigeon Shoots: Still Alive In Pennsylvania

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Pigeon Shoots: Still Alive In Pennsylvania

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Story in full..
Posted on Wed, Dec. 5, 2007

Critics still take aim at Pa. pigeon shoots

Enthusiasts press on despite bad rap.

By Amy Worden

Inquirer Staff Writer

PIKEVILLE, Pa. - At the cry of "Pull!" a pigeon is catapulted from a small spring-loaded metal box in the middle of a field at the Pike Township Sportsmen's Club. A shooter poised 30 yards away with a shotgun fires, sending the gray and white bird plummeting to the ground.

Over and over for two hours scores of live pigeons are launched into the air as shooters vie to kill the most birds and take home the prize money.

Some birds are killed instantly. Others land wounded, flapping helplessly on injured wings. The lucky ones escape and cluster in nearby trees and rooftops.

This is the scene at the Pike Township Sportsmen's Club, 56 miles northwest of Philadelphia, where Sunday pigeon shoots are a longtime tradition. Fewer than a half-dozen gun clubs - most of them in Berks County - still stage shoots in the state. Pennsylvania is one of two states where the events are legal, but the only one where the shoots are still being held.

Under fire from lawsuits, bad publicity and hostile legislation, the clubs operate in near secrecy. They do not advertise their shoots, nor are they open to the public. Efforts by a reporter to talk to participants at one recent pigeon shoot were rebuffed.

The Humane Society of the United States has been trying to end pigeon shoots in Pennsylvania since the mid-1980s. It has filed lawsuits on animal-cruelty allegations and pushed bills to ban the shoots in every legislative session without success.

The group argues the unregulated shoots are cruel because so many birds are slaughtered at close range and the injured suffer needlessly. The injured that fall inside the rings have their heads snapped off by ring crew members and those that fly away injured, critics say, languish in pain for hours or days before dying.

But they also contend that the shoots, like dog fights, are rife with other kinds of illegal activity occurring across multiple states in the region: trapping birds in New York City, transporting animals across state lines, tax fraud and gambling.

"Animal cruelty alone should be enough to shut down this practice, but there are many other compelling reasons as well," said Heidi Prescott, vice president for the Humane Society. "Our intelligence about the sordid and secretive pigeon-shoot circuit highlights the similarity to dogfighting and cockfighting in terms of the extent of gambling and illegal animal trafficking."

Officials at three gun clubs contacted by The Inquirer did not return calls seeking comment. An official reached at the Strausstown Gun Club, where pigeon shoots are held seven times a year, said he was not involved.

"I don't approve of them, but I don't condemn them," said Tom Leary, vice president of the club.

Don Bailey of Strausstown, who organizes shoots and provides pigeons at the Strausstown club and elsewhere, said he viewed the events as an effective way to get rid of vermin. "We kill pigeons," said Bailey. "What do you think they do when they poison birds in Philadelphia?"

Monitoring the action
From her perch a few hundred yards away from the shooting rings, humane officer Johnna Seeton has a clear view of the action.

The retired teacher stands on a public road, dutifully recording on paper and with a video camera the license plates of participants, the numbers of birds used, and how the injured birds are treated before they are destroyed.

This has been Seeton's weekend routine for 20 years.

"I guess I'm obsessed," she said. "But I figure if I have the documentation, no one can say it's hearsay."

After each round, a flock of teenagers, called "trappers," is dispatched with sacks to pick up the injured and dead birds. They disappear into a small lean-to. Typically, the injured birds are disposed of by breaking their necks or ripping their heads off.

Seeton goes out to comb the countryside to try to rescue the wounded the next day. She has brought scores of badly injured birds to vets, where most are euthanized.

"I feel like I'm cleaning up their mess," Seeton said of the shoot organizers.

Bailey claims he picks up birds from the perimeter of the rings and disposes of them. Birds that go farther afield are "taken care of by hawks," he said.

Pigeon shoots have been held in Pennsylvania since before the Civil War. It was a notorious Schuylkill County shoot that put pigeon shooting on the national radar in the 1980s. The annual fund-raiser in the town of Hegins drew as many as 10,000 people to its Roman circus-like atmosphere.

Animal-welfare advocates set up triage tents for the wounded birds. In 1993, mounted state troopers wielding tear gas arrested 114 protesters.

In 1999, amid a court battle with an animal-rights group, the shoot was canceled by its organizers.

"Most people now think the shoots are over," Seeton said.

But they continue to be held almost every weekend from September through February in other Pennsylvania clubs. At least 22 shoots were held in the last year, according to a schedule assembled by the Humane Society.

It's unclear exactly where the pigeons come from.

The pigeon broker and shoot organizer Bailey told a New York Times reporter in 2004 that he paid farm boys to collect pigeons from barns, but that he had heard of people taking birds from the streets of Philadelphia and New York.

The Humane Society alleges a large number continue to be brought in from New York City, where residents have reported witnessing people throwing nets over pigeons and whisking them away in vehicles.

With the clubs on the defensive, access to their shoots has become limited.

At the Pike Township club, where roughly 20 shooters showed up on a recent Sunday morning, a cluster of participants turned their backs on a reporter trying to ask questions.

Participants pay high fees - at Strausstown they start at $270, plus $7 for practice pigeons - for purses as small as $20. At the big events, winners can take home as much as $4,000. But the Humane Society's Prescott believes those purses represent a fraction of the real stakes - tens of thousands of dollars wagered under the table - at some events.

Leary, of the Strausstown club, said that the shoots' attraction was "gambling pure and simple."

Is it hunting?

Many hunters say pigeon shoots are cruel and not a legitimate form of hunting. Game Commission officials say that leaving behind a wounded animal violates the state game law.

The commission has not taken a position on the shoots or gotten involved because pigeons are not classified as wildlife, said spokesman Jerry Feaser.

But he said the pigeon shoots are "not what we would classify as fair-chase hunting."

David Kozloff, a Wyomissing lawyer who is representing the Pike Township club in a suit filed by Seeton, said he didn't see the difference between pigeon shoots and hunting in the field.

"Isn't the end result the same?" he said.

Sen. Patrick Browne (R., Lehigh), the sponsor of the latest version of the pigeon shoot bill, is still confident he has the support to pass the bill. (A companion bill has been introduced in the House.)

"I think in terms of the issue of a balance between the hunters and the cruelty to animals, this is something that breaches that," Browne said. "Traditional sportsmen find it offensive, and a large majority of Pennsylvanians agree."
I'm sorry, but even as a non-hunter (who is also a vegan) this is not hunting (and is little better than those canned "hunts" that Dick "Watch your aim" Cheney has indulged in, but that's another story). I don't know what's more disgusting, the shooters, or those people who go out there to perform the coup de grâce by snapping the neck or ripping off the head.

I may not like hunting, but I can at least tolerate hunting if it's for food, but this is not that. And, yes, no one likes pigeons and some of these birds might otherwise be poisoned as vermin, but I would hope that the poison used is at least somewhat humane. Nothing about this activity is humane. The only good thing about it is that it isn't more widespread.

I'm not going to even bother bolding or highlighting parts of the article I find particularly nauseating because the whole thing is a nightmare and I don't want to take the time picking out the most offensive parts, but have at it.

The gambling that goes on is another matter, but I'm more concerned about the ethics of using live animals like this where clean and quick kills are by no means guaranteed.

So discuss and debate. Aside from my dismay that this goes on in my home state, I'm really curious if there is anyone here who thinks this is a good thing, but whatever.[/u]
Image
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Post by FSTargetDrone »

And a quick edit, yes I know in deer hunting and the like there is no such thing as a guaranteed quick and clean kill, but I think we can all see the distinction between that and this mess.
Image
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I'm not entirely sure the poison we use to exterminate these rats with wings is any particularly more effective at eliminating them painlessly, however, so as usual the humane society et. al. may be playing a weak hand far to well.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Post by FSTargetDrone »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I'm not entirely sure the poison we use to exterminate these rats with wings is any particularly more effective at eliminating them painlessly, however, so as usual the humane society et. al. may be playing a weak hand far to well.
A quick search shows that poisons such as Avitrol which are used to control pigeons do not cause pain, but this comes from the manufacturer's own site, so take it for what you will.

Anyway, I don't necessarily want to get hung up on the issue of how best to control a pigeon population, rather, using them for sport in the manner described in the OP. I have my doubts that the people who engage in this activity are primarily concerned with pigeons shitting all over the place and such.
Image
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23351
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Post by LadyTevar »

My first reaction when I heard that they trap pigeons from elsewhere was "come get the bastards nesting in my roof!"
But I am just sick of pigeons and pigeon shit in my yard.

If they want to shoot 'pigeons' get the clay ones.
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
Exileman
Redshirt
Posts: 24
Joined: 2007-11-03 09:48pm

Post by Exileman »

LadyTevar wrote:If they want to shoot 'pigeons' get the clay ones.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Honestly, it probably requires more effort and cost to get the live pigeons than clay. Besides, with clay pidgeons, no dogs laugh at you if you miss.

But seriously, I don't hunt but I consider myself a hunting advocate to a degree. This? This is bullshit. This is as bad as those farms where they raise deer and put them in fences so people can come out and shoot them with a fish-in-barrel sort of outcome. Hunting involves population control and food gathering. These birds are being transported in, sometimes from other states, and then I'm quite sure not being eaten. Seriously, get clay. There's no "CLay pidgeon awareness group." It'd have to better than "The Community for the Legal Advancement of Pidgeons" Or whatever.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

LadyTevar wrote: If they want to shoot 'pigeons' get the clay ones.
A live pigeon flies an erratic course; a clay pigeon doesn’t, that’s a rather big difference.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
LadyTevar wrote: If they want to shoot 'pigeons' get the clay ones.
A live pigeon flies an erratic course; a clay pigeon doesn’t, that’s a rather big difference.
Then design a more interesting clay pigeon
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
DavidEC
Padawan Learner
Posts: 268
Joined: 2007-10-18 02:29pm
Location: London, UK

Post by DavidEC »

That's one dastardly pigeon, one must fear for Pennsylvania.
"Show me a commie pilot with some initiative, and I'll show you a Foxbat in Japan."
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: Then design a more interesting clay pigeon
And how exactly do you propose to do that? Have you ever even seen one, or how the range is setup at a pigeon shoot for that matter?

It’s freaking clay. You aren’t going to turn that into some kind of multi course glider that can launch vertically, especially not if you actually want to make an economic arrangement against live pigeons which can’t be more then a few dollars each. Not that it would ever matter because anyone with a membership to one of those shooting clubs up in Berks county sure isn’t going to care.

I’m not a fan of canned hunts, but at least here the pigeon gets a slight escape chance, and well my ability to have sympathy for flying rats I’ve had to clean out of the attic and bell tower at work is about zero.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

And how exactly do you propose to do that? Have you ever even seen one, or how the range is setup at a pigeon shoot for that matter?
Methinks your sarcasm detector needs a tuneup.
I’m not a fan of canned hunts, but at least here the pigeon gets a slight escape chance, and well my ability to have sympathy for flying rats I’ve had to clean out of the attic and bell tower at work is about zero.
Your sympathy level means precisely dick when one raises the question of whether or not an action is ethical. I dont have much sympathy for terror suspects but it is still immoral to waterboard them. And no, that was not a direct comparison of terrorists and pigeons, and no, this statement is not sarcasm
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Alyrium Denryle wrote: Your sympathy level means precisely dick when one raises the question of whether or not an action is ethical. I dont have much sympathy for terror suspects but it is still immoral to waterboard them. And no, that was not a direct comparison of terrorists and pigeons, and no, this statement is not sarcasm
Ethics and the slaughter of animals is pretty much just a matter of opinion, so yeah it’s about as relevant as anything you’ve said. The only thing specifically objectionable about trap shooting is the wounded birds, but you get that with all kinds of hunting and they are only a small percentage of the total. I simply fail to see why killing livestock for fun is any worse then killing a wild animal because you like the way it tastes, and I seem to recall that you stated you approve of sport hunting if you eat what you shoot.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Yes, if you eat what you shoot and the populations can sustain the loss without harming the ecosystem. There, you are using the animal to meet nutritional needs. There is an actual purpose behind it. Several actually. Sport hunters (at least the ones who hunt ungulates) take the place of predators within the ecosystem and help maintain the ungulate population at or below their carrying capacity. Additionally, the animal under most circumstances has a chance to avoid being shot. The hunter literally becomes a predator and maintains natural selection on the population, o and need I forget that the hunter takes great pains to make a clean kill and will track down wounded animals specifically to end their suffering. At least the good ones do.

Hardly comparable with pigeon shoots. Where the sole purpose is to engage in target shooting at the expense of another creature's pain. The birds do not have a reasonable chance of escape, they are literally launched out of a catapult and summarily shot. Sure, a few escape...probably not uninjured, hundreds of kilometers away from home hundreds of kilometers away from their normal feeding areas, their known shelter etc. They may or may not be able to find their way back (pigeons are pretty good at it though) and they may well die from their injuries. The people putting them in catapults and shooting them dont give two shits about making a clean kill, they only care about how many birds they can cripple or kill in a given amount of time in competition with other sick fucks trying to do the same thing. Fuck that. I dont even have to LIKE pigeons to see the difference and know it is wrong.
Ethics and the slaughter of animals is pretty much just a matter of opinion, so yeah it’s about as relevant as anything you’ve said.
Pretty much all ethics are a matter of opinion unless you can actually prove the universe gives a shit. But if you are fine with the highly torterous killing of an animal simply because you dont like it, and object to the killing of a similar animal that you happen to like, you are an inconsistent douchebag. So lets see, how would you feel about people doing this to.. oh, I dont know, geese? How about cute little song birds like warblers?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Spyder
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4465
Joined: 2002-09-03 03:23am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Pigeon Shoots: Still Alive In Pennsylvania

Post by Spyder »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
I'm sorry, but even as a non-hunter (who is also a vegan) this is not hunting (and is little better than those canned "hunts" that Dick "Watch your aim" Cheney has indulged in, but that's another story). I don't know what's more disgusting, the shooters, or those people who go out there to perform the coup de grâce by snapping the neck or ripping off the head.

So discuss and debate. Aside from my dismay that this goes on in my home state, I'm really curious if there is anyone here who thinks this is a good thing, but whatever.[/u]
A friend of mine used to snap the necks of chickens that had become diseased. At the time that was probably the most humane thing for them.

There may be more human ways of disposing of pest species then taking to them with shotguns,
:D
User avatar
Covenant
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4451
Joined: 2006-04-11 07:43am

Post by Covenant »

It's pretty absurd the lengths people will reach to in order to blast away a tiny, dumb animal in a controlled setting with an overkill weapon. Canned hunts and such, really, c'mon. You could play Duck Hunt for the amount of skill this really tests.

However, it's not like we have a shortage of pidgeons. We actively attempt to murder lots of them every year, so blasting them seems like a less ethnical but relatively similar sort of end for these things. If this could be used as an actual control mechanism, hell, I dunno. Maybe might be worth it. It's too bad that these people couldn't really get a stiffy off of watching whales or picking up litter though. It's good to see, at least, that they're not even called honest sportsmen. It's hardly sporting to catapult a confused bird into the air while you're waiting there with some sort of AA cannon.
User avatar
Chardok
GET THE FUCK OFF MY OBSTACLE!
Posts: 8488
Joined: 2003-08-12 09:49am
Location: San Antonio

Post by Chardok »

I have a hard time seeing this as unethical considering the lengths we go to to kill rats, which are on par with Pigeons IMHO. I mean, are glue traps nice? Naw, but we use them without remorse. Just...I'm pretty "whatever" on this one.
Image
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Edi »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote: Then design a more interesting clay pigeon
And how exactly do you propose to do that? Have you ever even seen one, or how the range is setup at a pigeon shoot for that matter?
Shouldn't be too difficult, actually. Back in elementray school I and some friends experimented with making shurikens and such in shop class and some of the stuff that we made behaved pretty damned unpredictably. IIRC, clay pigeons are just concave, uninterrupted disks. Add a hole an inch or so in the center and the flight path should get quite a bit of variation.

A different shape would also cause an erratic flight path. A thing, non-curved, U-shaped object with the middle filled in, when launched sideways as if you were throwing a frisbee will go on a really random flight path and a catapult that had a sideways arm would be able to do that.

As far as this type of pigeon shooting goes, seems like the people doing it are doing it because it's tradition or because they get their jollies shooting living things purely for entertainment and from all the other crap attendant to these events. The "We're doing pest control" excuse is so fucking lame that anyone who is seriously making it has their head so far up their ass that they're looking out from behind their teeth. The number of birds used in these events isn't even a drop in a bucket compared to the actual pest problem and their posturing is nothing but an insult to intelligence. Sure, kill pigeons as pests, but do it efficiently, quickly and as humanely as possible. This isn't any of that.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Edi wrote:As far as this type of pigeon shooting goes, seems like the people doing it are doing it because it's tradition or because they get their jollies shooting living things purely for entertainment and from all the other crap attendant to these events. The "We're doing pest control" excuse is so fucking lame that anyone who is seriously making it has their head so far up their ass that they're looking out from behind their teeth. The number of birds used in these events isn't even a drop in a bucket compared to the actual pest problem and their posturing is nothing but an insult to intelligence. Sure, kill pigeons as pests, but do it efficiently, quickly and as humanely as possible. This isn't any of that.
Additionally, if they want to use such an excuse, one has to wonder why they don't gas or otherwise kill these birds immediately after capture. It's a seemingly inefficient (and expensive) method, given how many birds are involved. Why go through the extra step? Ah, because they want to blow something away.
Image
Uncshabob
Redshirt
Posts: 20
Joined: 2005-09-08 05:06am
Location: Australia.

Post by Uncshabob »

Chardok wrote:I have a hard time seeing this as unethical considering the lengths we go to to kill rats, which are on par with Pigeons IMHO. I mean, are glue traps nice? Naw, but we use them without remorse.
I don't use glue traps because they are torturous to the poor animals that are caught in them (and IMO should be banned). I do strongly believe that if any animal must be killed, it should done humanely... as I do not condone unnecessary suffering of any animal. Torture is just wrong, plain and simple.
Post Reply