SETI and aliens

[Guardsman Bass]

I am curious on what your opinion of SETI is. I personally think it will probably not be successful. Not because there is nobody else out there, but because of these reasons.

There may be only a few communicative or interstellar civilizations,because of all the possible forms and pathways of science and technology that could be taken. Most sentient alien species may simply take one of the following forms or pathways:

1. CUL-DE-SAC species


For example, you could have a sentient species that has an advanced culture, a language . . . but no way to manipulate their environment. They would have no technology, and their "science" would be completely observation by individuals and their race as a whole. Another species, say a hive mind, may use primitive tools and build great(but primitive) dwellings and "cities", but have no form of science that we would recognize. More such species may be completely sea-going species that CAN manipulate their environment at will and have culture, but because fire is impossible, they would never even reach the "stone age." So far, all I have mentioned is social species, but what about sentient species made up of solitary individuals? They could be tool-users, but would have no society to speak of. So far, I have just described biological cul -de -sac species; what about ones that are that way because of "culture?"


Even after you get pass these hurdles, whose to say that aliens may take a technological path that would lead them to radio technology and space travel? Perhaps an alien species may completely avoid air travel, and develop an advanced science of mind, or of biology, or something else. How about a species that is completely blind, and detects and hunts prey by sensing the electric pulses made by the prey's muscles? Such a race may, rather than describing their world by visual means, instead describe it by electrical means. Is it possible that a species may completely bypass radio technology and go straight to laser technology, or something else? There may be advanced civilizations out there that never leave the ground or send a radio transmission.


As for interstellar travelers, it is even worse. You probably need at least a mildly expansionistic species. Completely stable ones won't do. They might easily just choose to avoid such a risky venture and stay at home, on their planet or in their solar system. They may be content and satisfied, so they choose not to venture. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it will be done. Take humanity. We could probably colonize the entire solar system, develop a faster means of propulsion, and greatly enlargen ourselves in only 50 years. However, the political will just doesn't exist.

I am not saying that there WON'T be any expansionist or radio-communicating civilizations; it's just that they may be few and far between. There may be only a few in this galaxy. To anyone who has heard of it, there may be only one Type 3 Civilization(galaxy-wielding one) per galactic supercluster, and only 1 or 2 "Type 4" Civilizations in the Cosmos.

[Mr. B]

I have the SETi at home on my computer. It's my small contribution to find that one alien race with Turbolasers.

[Darth Yoshi]

That alone would make it worthwhile.

[Datana]

Gah, hit "submit" with the wrong option selected. Put me down for the second option. Assuming that any aliens would use radio, we would have to know which freqency band to use and which direction to look, be listening at that exact moment, and know how to identify the message for what it is. Given the vast distances of interstellar space, such a message is highly unlikely to arrive due to transit times also having to be added. We've only had radio technology for a hundred years, after all -- the tiniest of timespans on the scale of human history.

[Tanith]

Last sememster we had a lecturer come in from the SETI Institute for one of our Physics seminar classes. He was a director of R&D or something like that...

Anyways, a lot of what he was saying went over my head, but part of his presentation was on the fact that there is a way to detect signs of extraterrestrial (Earthlike) civilizations without requiring actual communications.

Basically, he said that, on a particular frequency of the EM spectrum (I think it was frequency), the our cities and such on Earth produce a total output of that particular energy in significantly larger amounts than the sun itself (on that particular frequency, I guess), and that this was caused by the various electronics and machinery that our modern society has.

Anyways, by searching for these particular strong signals through the SETI arrays, they hope to find signs of such Earthlike civilizations elsewhere.

Of course, there were complications to the whole process, and they haven't detected any successes yet, of course.... but that was the only part of the lecture I think I understood.

Um... yeah. And that's my two cents on the topic.

[Nick]

Basically, he said that, on a particular frequency of the EM spectrum (I think it was frequency), the our cities and such on Earth produce a total output of that particular energy in significantly larger amounts than the sun itself (on that particular frequency, I guess), and that this was caused by the various electronics and machinery that our modern society has.

My guess would be that it has to do with the fact that a lot of human generated EMR is at relatively low frequencies compared to solar radiation.

Anyway, the bigger problem for interstellar contact is the relative time periods associated with light speed travel between solar systems and the longevity of EMR-capable civilisations.

Recorded human history has barely reached the 6000 year mark. We've been pumping out significant amounts of EMR for all of 50-100 years - only long enough for the first transmissions to be reaching a comparative handful of solar systems. We obviously don't know yet how long we're going to be around - it's still possible we'll blow ourselves back into the stone age, or else strip mine the planet until it can't support us any more.

In order for us to make contact with another species, it is not enough for advanced life to have evolved on other planets in the galaxy - it has to have evolved at the right time, and stuck around long enough for us to make contact with it. The chances of that are vanishingly small, unless the conditions for abiogenesis are common - leading to an abundance of life in the galaxy (with a corresponding increase in the occurrence of intelligent and advanced life).

So SETI is unlikely to find anything, but the possibility of finding something is greater than zero. Which is pretty much infinitely better than the odds we would have if we weren't looking at all

[Cpt_Frank]

IF they should discover aliens, and if they just look like humans with pointy ears/a strange forehead etc I am going to kill myself here where I stand.

[Galvatron]

I have the SETi at home on my computer. It's my small contribution to find that one alien race with Turbolasers.

I have a Christian fundie co-worker who refuses to run SETI@Home on his PC because he can't reconcile the existence of aliens with his religion.

[Mr. B]

I have a Christian fundie co-worker who refuses to run SETI@Home on his PC because he can't reconcile the existence of aliens with his religion.

Wow, that guy IS REALLY A FUNDIE!

[TrailerParkJawa]

Do you think a hand like structure is essential to the creation of society based on technology. You point out that a species might be smart but unable to advance to a certain level. I think dolphins are a good example. They seem to be pretty darn smart as far as animals go, but without that hand there are no tools, thus no technology.

Mabye for a species to evolve like we have they need to be slightly unadapted to their surrounds and have to rely on brain power and not physical adaptations.

[Gil Hamilton]

SETI is a good idea, I think. It's unlikely that SETI will find anything, but it will all be worth it if it finds anything at all.

EDIT: Incidently, why does the poll only include "Success" or "failure". SETI hasn't had much of a chance yet to succeed or fail. There should be a "Yet to be seen" option.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I have a Christian fundie co-worker who refuses to run SETI@Home on his PC because he can't reconcile the existence of aliens with his religion.

Wow, that guy IS REALLY A FUNDIE!

I'd avoid anyone who's religious beliefs get that strong. That's was too close to the scary realm of, 'The voices in my head told me to kill the demons. Are you a demon?'

[Priesto]

Well seti is a decoy for nasa.It's pathetic really,since other life is obvious.Seti's way of looking for life is also pathetic.Radio waves are not what Aliens use for communication.If that were the case, they'd have found something.Nasa knows a lot, but isn't telling the public.It doesn't take a genius.one more thing, seti goes on the presumption that life is many lightyears away.Mant scientists like to presume this.

[Nick]

Oh good, and here I was thinking this thread was on its way to an early death. . .

Well seti is a decoy for nasa.

Err, what? SETI is set up to distract attention from NASA? Explain what you mean by the term decoy, and how SETI serves as one for NASA.

(Actually, I might be able to save you some effort: "NASA actually knows aliens exist and has been in contact with them for some time. By pretending that SETI is still going on and has failed to produce any results, it makes it easier for NASA to conceal their contact with the aliens." How close am I?)

It's pathetic really,since other life is obvious.

Explain why you think extraterrestrial life is obvious, when the available evidence is inconclusive.

Seti's way of looking for life is also pathetic.Radio waves are not what Aliens use for communication.If that were the case, they'd have found something.

If radio waves are pathetic, what alternative strategies would you suggest?

Additionally, why do you reject all of the reasonable explanations for SETI's failure to discover anything, in favour of "SETI hasn't found anything on radio waves, therefore aliens don't use them".

Nasa knows a lot, but isn't telling the public.It doesn't take a genius.

Enlighten us. What does NASA know, that it isn't revealing? Explain to us how a government which is famous for leaking information like a seive, is, in this instance, able to keep both the public and the press from obtaining any solid information.

one more thing, seti goes on the presumption that life is many lightyears away.Mant scientists like to presume this.

Explain why this is a presumption. Near space is easily examined in a reasonable time frame, and has no evidence of current near-space life (although Europa appears to be a possibility worth investigating further). Explain you reasons for believing in the existence of current near-space extraterrestrial life.

[Priesto]

Nick don't attack me geeze.Mars is evident, as well as sightings.Of course now I'm some ufo nut who is oblivious to reality.Nasa has you thinking exactly what they want you to think.Europa? please.Seti is a program that is for tricking the public into believing they're serious about looking for life.There are a lot of documents on the internet on credible websites.Now back to the ufo deal.Let me plead my case before I'm utterly dismissed.It is clear that out side the usa we are being visited.You can look at many videos, taken from japan to jerusalem all the way to mexico.Nasa even has footage of craft in space.I'm not speaking of the well publicized on that was obscure.I'm talking recent, of course there are obvious reasons you may not know about these things.Believe me I study these things, and have been for a while.I'm not trying to brainwash or ake something up.

[Priesto]

A more advanced civilization uses something we have yet to discover probably.And no, microrgansisms aren't the only form of Life we'll find in this solar system.Something mainstream science likes to state.

[Nick]

Nick don't attack me geeze.

You call that an attack? You made some rather impressive assertions. I deemed it appropriate to ask you to back them up. Unless, of course, you are referring to my hypothetical conversation - which you failed to quote. To answer my own question ("How close am I"?), judging from the contents of your post, the answer is "Very".

Mars is evident, as well as sightings.Of course now I'm some ufo nut who is oblivious to reality.

Your precise status as a UFO nut has yet to be established. In order to avoid that status, I suggest you actually start addressing my questions, rather than reiterating your original position. What about Mars is evident? Why are all the more plausible explanations for sightings to be dismissed in favour of the UFO thesis? You are trying to overcome Occam's Razor. In order to do so, you must establish data which the non-UFO theories are unable to account for.

Nasa has you thinking exactly what they want you to think.Europa? please.

Why is Europa to be dismissed so casually? And again, why is NASA to be deemed so good at deceit and suppression, when they couldn't even conceal the bureaucratic incompetence that led to the Challenger disaster?

Seti is a program that is for tricking the public into believing they're serious about looking for life.There are a lot of documents on the internet on credible websites.

This is an appeal to anonymous authority - if there are relevant websites, provide links and let us judge their reliability for ourselves. Regardless, NASA isn't serious about looking for extraterrestrial life. They don't really care - and I can't blame them. The odds of making contact with extraterrestrial life are so ridiculously low that investment in the effort is hardly justified. Generally speaking, the data SETI is analysing has been collected for other purposes as well - the SETI program is merely one way of analysing the data.

Now back to the ufo deal.Let me plead my case before I'm utterly dismissed.It is clear that out side the usa we are being visited.You can look at many videos, taken from japan to jerusalem all the way to mexico.

Why is it clear that we are being visited outside the USA? Have you seen these videos? Under what circumstances were they filmed? What other explanations have been put forward for the content of these films?

Nasa even has footage of craft in space.I'm not speaking of the well publicized on that was obscure.I'm talking recent, of course there are obvious reasons you may not know about these things.

Of course NASA has footage of spacecraft - we've launched lots of them. I'm sure they even have footage of craft not launched by Americans. Or are you, perhaps talking about something *cue Twilight Zone music* not of this world.

Believe me I study these things, and have been for a while.I'm not trying to brainwash or ake something up.

If you've been studying these things, then direct us towards the evidence you found so compelling. Let us know how you found out about it. Convince us that you have actually examined the counterfactual evidence which heavily favours the notion that there is not now, and never has been, any space-faring race near Earth except for humans.

A more advanced civilization uses something we have yet to discover probably.

Perhaps. Regardless, there is a reasonable chance that any space-faring civilisation, at some point in its development, will utilise modulated electromagnetic radiation as a communications mechanism. Again, I ask, if scanning for radio transmission is pathetic, what alternatives do you suggest?

And no, microrgansisms aren't the only form of Life we'll find in this solar system.Something mainstream science likes to state.

Did I say micro-organisms were the only form of life in the solar system outside of Earth? However, now that you have made it clear that you do not believe that statement to be true, perhaps you could enlighten as to why. What life do you believe exists in the solar system? What evidence do you believe indicates the existence of that life?

[C.S.Strowbridge]

There are a lot of documents on the internet on credible websites.

Credible Website? Isn't that an oxymoron.

Believe me I study these things,

So have I. The difference is I studied them with an open mind, not as a true believer.

The evidence is severly lacking in credibility. I've never seen any evidence that has no other, much more logical explanation. I've also seen airplanes, police helicopters, ducks, etc. mistaken for UFOs.

[Wicked Pilot]

Mars is evident

Mars is inconclusive. Moveover, if it wasn't, primortial bacteria fossels are not evidence that advance life exist on other worlds.

as well as sightings.

Yeah, aircraft, birds, bugs, and tossed hubcaps are proof that aliens have visited us. Perpahs crop circles are their versions of VOR or NDB stations.

Of course now I'm some ufo nut who is oblivious to reality

That much is obvious.

Nasa has you thinking exactly what they want you to think.Europa?

Europa and Titan are the most likely places life may be in our solar system. Europe is speculated to have liquid water under its ice surface, and Titan has a thick Nitrogen atmosphere. That is why the Cassini probe is on it's way to Saturn right now. What do you think, life is to be found on the surface of Venus?

Seti is a program that is for tricking the public into believing they're serious about looking for life.

They're not looking for advanced alien life you twit. You are the one who was tricked into believing that you were tricked.

There are a lot of documents on the internet on credible websites.

You mean www.conspiraciesfordumbasses.com?

It is clear that out side the usa we are being visited.

Only to an idiot like yourself

You can look at many videos, taken from japan to jerusalem all the way to mexico.

Yeah, bugs, birds, airplanes, hubcaps, and your occasional meteorite.

Nasa even has footage of craft in space.

Space is full of floating junk. Seeing light reflecting off some 30 year broken solar panel is not a sign of ET.

I'm not speaking of the well publicized on that was obscure.I'm talking recent, of course there are obvious reasons you may not know about these things.

And you do? Tell me Dick Tracy, where did you uncover this classified information? Please enlighten us.

Believe me I study these things, and have been for a while.I'm not trying to brainwash or ake something up.

Yeah we believe you. By the way, did I mention I have a fire breathing dragon in my garage?

[Priesto]

Once again you fail to reply with intellegent posts.Name bashing and write offs.Special programs on television show remarkable crafts.Nothing new, of course you wouldn't know cause they aren't publicized like they should be.Saucer shape disc were caught on tape in space by nasa.This happened, when a fluorescent teather broke loose in space attracting these discs.It was about 200 feet in length, which allowed measurements of these discs.Closeups show that they were obviously not space debris.I'll find a site that has footage.You'd know that in africa, young children described beings not of this earth.No tv or anything, and looked remarkably similar to the well popular big eyes frail body type creature.Skeptics are closeminded, no wonder they know nothing about these things.You should study up in the library or go to search engines.You might run into a site like none you've seen.Facts evidence everything you'd want.I'm reluctant to give you the site but I might.I know that glass tubes have been discovered on mars, Nasa tries to write it off as sand dunes of course.You should try and investigate once in a while.I'm no gullible person like you may think.

[Nick]

Once again you fail to reply with intellegent posts.Name bashing and write offs.

And once again, you fail to answer the many specific questions asked. Please realise, it is very important for us to determine just where it is you came by this information you claim to possess. In fact, I don't believe I have called you any names, nor written off any of your comments. Rather, I have asked clarifying questions - which you have either ignored, or replied to with non-responsive answers.

Special programs on television show remarkable crafts.Nothing new, of course you wouldn't know cause they aren't publicized like they should be.

Oh yes, special programs on television. And broadcast TV is such a reliable medium. You do know Fox broadcast a special claiming the USA never landed on the moon, don't you? (Or do you, perhaps, believe the 'moon landings were a hoax' theories as well?)

Saucer shape disc were caught on tape in space by nasa.This happened, when a fluorescent teather broke loose in space attracting these discs.It was about 200 feet in length, which allowed measurements of these discs.Closeups show that they were obviously not space debris.I'll find a site that has footage.

A floursescent tether? WTF? As a gigantic alien insect attractor? Yeah, go and find us that footage. It should be amusing, if nothing else. (Of course, we will also be very interested in finding out the source of that footage)

You'd know that in africa, young children described beings not of this earth.No tv or anything, and looked remarkably similar to the well popular big eyes frail body type creature.

I'd like to spell a word for you: I-M-A-G-I-N-A-T-I-O-N. Kids generally have very good ones. No TV required. Regardless, you again allude to stories, without providing details. What were these stories? Where were they discovered? What alternative theories are available to explain the events? Who provides the reports of these stories?(A somehwat related question in assessing your ability for critical thinking: Do you believe in the Nigerian resurrection story, as well?)

Skeptics are closeminded, no wonder they know nothing about these things.You should study up in the library or go to search engines.You might run into a site like none you've seen.Facts evidence everything you'd want.

Yes, I agree with you. A shame you have read it all from the mindset of a true believer, and can't recognise the fact that "No aliens have every visited Earth, but wishful thinking and plain stupidity means many people would like to believe they have" is a much better theory than "Aliens are here, and governments are covering it up". The first theory assumes nothing we don't already know to be true (there are plenty of stupid and/or gullible people out there). The second assumes the existence of aliens (who behave in really odd ways) and governments agencies which are actually able to keep a secret. Gee, I wonder which theory any sane, intelligent, rational person would favour?

I'm reluctant to give you the site but I might.

Please do (I notice it is just a single site, now. What happened to 'credible websites'?) Anyway, I'm sure your utter inability to defend your position rationally is no reflection on the contents of that site. None at all. Really.

I know that glass tubes have been discovered on mars, Nasa tries to write it off as sand dunes of course.You should try and investigate once in a while.I'm no gullible person like you may think.

I see. And who reported these glass tubes to you? What reasons did they give for NASA covering them up? What is it about those glass tubes that means it is bad for the public to know about them? What evidence is there that these glass tubes exist?

[Priesto]

Because something doesn't operate like your logic says, it is false? I'm sorry but not everything in this world can be explained using Logic, not everything is logical.Anyways there are pictures of such tubes, and why should I know the reasons for Nasa covering it up? there are suggestive ones, like Nasa is afraid to tell the public since they don't know the full implication of these discoveries.It'd also change science and perspectives, change is not very liked by Nasa for some reason.But there are orginizations who are fighting for the truth, one of the reasons I know of these things.An obvious anomolie found on mars is the face, which is clearly artificial, but again this is all one one website.Probably will never reveal the site, though I'm going to provide a link to a site with the nasa footage I spoke of earlier.Maybe tommorow.

[LMSx]

An obvious anomolie found on mars is the face, which is clearly artificial, but again this is all one one website

Proven by later NASA craft as the result of low-resolution imagery by the Viking probes.

But there are orginizations who are fighting for the truth, one of the reasons I know of these things

Proof?

there are suggestive ones, like Nasa is afraid to tell the public since they don't know the full implication of these discoveries

It'd also change science and perspectives, change is not very liked by Nasa for some reason

NASA *is* the cutting frontier of interplanetary science. NASA's budget is being slashed by Congress right now, if they show people proof of extraterresrial life, you'd think a *few* people would be willing to give NASA a few extra bucks?

Could you back up any of your assertations?

[Priesto]

Cutting edge? is that so? why haven't they been to the moon in like 15 years? there's a reason, of course you'd say cause the moon is a rock with nothing more than a triclke of water and a bunch of craters.

[oberon]

Priesto, you are clearly not the religious nut people think you are. Life on other planets defies God, and our place in the universe, and is not in scripture.