What is the best way to improve America's shitty education?

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-02-03 08:12pm

What is the best way to improve America's shitty education? I'd favor the teaching of science according to the scientific method and the replacement of no-good math teachers (which are way too common in this country).

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-02-03 08:20pm

Outlaw Intelligent Design in schools, and strengthen the math program with some basic teacher qualifications.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-03 08:24pm

Make 4 Years of Logic the requirement, Not Four Years of English
(Though you can keep that too)

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2003-02-03 08:25pm

End the four year plan for HS, and replace it with a series of final exams covering all the main subjects. If someone can test out in 2 years, let 'em graduate. Likewise, if it takes someone 6 years, such as because they have to work part time, then let them do things that way.

HS shouldn't be mandatory. If someone doesn't want to go to HS, then let them go out into the real world and try to earn a life. Most likely they'll fail, and end up back in school anyways in a few years, by which time maybe they'll appreciate the education they're there for.

Require teachers in HS to actually have a degree related to the subject they teach.

Encourage greater cooperation between Middle Schools and HS, setting up programs for students who excel in a subject to take high school courses while still in middle school.

Encourage an increase in sport/physical activity. PE classes should be moved to the end of the day. Too many children in the US are overweight according to studies. For me at least, when I was in sports, I tended to do better in school and found it easier to focus on my work.

That's all I can think of for now.

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2003-02-03 08:27pm

Mr Bean wrote:Make 4 Years of Logic the requirement, Not Four Years of English
(Though you can keep that too)

At least make it a basic requirement for all freshmen to pass a Logic course. I don't know about four years though. That seems like too much. Perhaps two would be sufficient.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-02-03 08:38pm

The two most fundamental things that would change education for the better are money and accountability. Both are required, not one or the other.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-02-03 08:56pm

I'd say get qualified teachers first, instead of the morons that don't even know the stuff they're teaching which are far too common in some schools. Then, concentrate more on the core subjects, and get them into the heads of the students. Then, there would be year round courses, but only for the failing students who have too much of a problem with forgetting what they've learned. I don't think A students should be forced to spend all year in school because their classmates are incompetent dolts.

I also think that the science education method should be revised, so we don't have as many YECs and New Age mysiticists.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-03 09:01pm

Break the teachers' unions.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-02-03 09:01pm

Encourage an increase in sport/physical activity. PE classes should be moved to the end of the day. Too many children in the US are overweight according to studies. For me at least, when I was in sports, I tended to do better in school and found it easier to focus on my work

I agree with more PE but dont see any reason why it needs to be at the end of the day. The HS I went to was so big, they had PE classed during every period of the day just to fufull the need for the required classes. Which only included freshman and sophmores. It was optional to take PE as a junior or senior.

I too did better in school and life when I was physically active. Without PE I found myself being stressed out over far too trivial of things. Of course its a lesson I seemed to have forgotten as an adult and learn over again now and then.

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2003-02-03 09:03pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
Encourage an increase in sport/physical activity. PE classes should be moved to the end of the day. Too many children in the US are overweight according to studies. For me at least, when I was in sports, I tended to do better in school and found it easier to focus on my work
I agree with more PE but dont see any reason why it needs to be at the end of the day. The HS I went to was so big, they had PE classed during every period of the day just to fufull the need for the required classes. Which only included freshman and sophmores. It was optional to take PE as a junior or senior.

I too did better in school and life when I was physically active. Without PE I found myself being stressed out over far too trivial of things. Of course its a lesson I seemed to have forgotten as an adult and learn over again now and then.

I put PE at the end just because I never liked it in the mornings when I was tired still, or right after lunch when I had just eaten. I figured the end of the day because most students would be fidgetty anyways, so getting them active then would be good. Plus they would be tired afterwards, so less likely to immediatly go out and make trouble.

Alex Moon · Post by **Alex Moon** » 2003-02-03 09:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:Break the teachers' unions.

I think Jaeger was talking about ideas that had more than a snowball's chance in hell of succeding.

Although you're right about the unions

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-02-03 09:08pm

Break the teachers' unions.

I'm not very familiar on what they do. Could someone please enlighten me?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-03 09:10pm

I'm not very familiar on what they do. Could someone please enlighten me?

Demand more money and go on strike mostely

Teaching is not far up on their list of opitions

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-02-03 09:21pm

Require all students to take math up to Calculus, and have a Statistics course everyone must take as well (no one knows stats anymore)

Require all students to take proper amounts of history.

Require all students to be grounded in sociology and economics (economics especially)

Require all students to know Physics (not just the old 18th and 19th century physics to but at least an amount of 20th century physics, my highschool physics class wont even cover Einstein), Chemistry, Biology, and Earth Science (Astronomy, Geology, Meteorology)

Still you need 4 years of english, specifically Grammar, grammar in the US is horrible we should change that, also make people read the classics rather than the BS "politically correct" books they teach us now.

There should also be an amount of Philosophy in the corriculum and at least one course in Logic.

Also a music appreciation course would be good to help out people too.

(You may be able to tell but I am an ardent believer in a proper classical/liberal arts education where you gain at the very least a foundation in a large variety of subjects, a person who only knows physics is just as bad as a person who only knows history or who only knows 18th century english literature)

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-03 09:30pm

Here we go Bean's Full Edumication to Education System Over-haul
Note, If you want to know how to pay for it, Assume that gnomes will cover it for the moment and if not, Taxes

Anyway here weo go
Elementrey/Middle School
Maintain the basic Elementery/Middle School system, they did not mess that up to bad, re-introduce the old critical thinking classes they used to have.
Increase funding across the board however for gdamn supplies and keep a strong eye out for wasted spending, Also if somone complains of this or that game/activity because "everyone can't win" Security shall excute that person on the spot(Baring it being in the middle of the playground or anything)

Introduce competition and ethics we all know and love that come with a Captialist society, Work hard, work long, cheaters will get it in the end those sorts of things

NEXT UP
Also combing the taking classes earily with testing
One Test shall be given, During the last year of Middle school that shall determine what your requirments are for High-School(Do you need 4 Years of English? Prehaps only 2 or 3 or maybe just 1 sort of a test)

High School
Four years, that what you have to work with, I try and do away with Text-Books as much as possible in the English Area(Its just a fucking load of Grammer rules and Short Storys for the most part) also doing the same in the Math-Deparment (What? Why Bean? Simple fokes we face the same situation as in the English Area, Nothing but a fifty problems and one principle/rule/forumal to do all those problems, You don't need a eight pound book per student for that. If you want people to use Math you have to start giving them math they will USE and can REMEBER)
My classic example of this when it comes to Math, Is Proofs, Not one person(Aside from the Odd Engineer) can say they ever use proofs on any sort of regular basies, or even at all, Nevermind the fact your avarage twenty year old can't even rember HOW to do it

A big thing is striping out the useless things from Generlised classes, For example to use Proof's agian those take up anywhere from two to five weeks in your typical school and will never be seen agian by 98% of the Popluas, That folks is wasted effort and it much stop

As the before-mentioned Logic Classes, however I've modfied the idea,
One Year, They pick of Freshman oriented studies, I want to removed "Ad Homean" and "Hasty Generlization" from the list of words that fokes assoisate with Havard Graduates and put them down with the common man with other such common words as "Bullshit".

There shall however be a manditory class in the Senior year dealing with all things idioitc, Be it psedo-sciences and general idiotic things, We must educate the public on what consitute "intellgent reasoning"
And "reasoning that would make Darkstar look logical"

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-03 09:34pm

To expand on my earlier comment regarding teacher's unions, there is a massive surplus of English and History teachers, at least in my country and probably in yours. One of the reasons for this is that English and History are ridiculously easy to take in university as compared to, say, science or engineering. Science and Engineering grads, therefore, expect more money than an English or History major if they're going to teach. But do they get it? Of course not, because the teacher's union regulates pay by seniority.

There is no supply and demand equation; even when a school board is hurting for qualified teachers in a particular field, they can't pay more for a teacher in that field because of the union. So what you get is a teacher group whose skills breakdown does NOT match the demands of the classroom. Yet another wondrous boon of large public-service unions

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-03 09:34pm

I like your plan Bean.

Simple and effective....which mean it'll never be done until you rule the world.

Pistolero · Post by **Pistolero** » 2003-02-03 09:35pm

Make it mandatory for all students to read the Bible for at least 3 hours a day instead of science books. Allow prayer in schools. Shun any and all non-Christian ideology. Teach Astrology.

Wait... it is already getting there!

(Before the flames start licking my chops, and in case it is not obvious, I AM BEING SARCASTIC)

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-02-03 10:00pm

Get rid of compulsory attendance laws, eliminate tenure or make it easier to fire tenured teachers, and break the teachers' unions, as Wong said.

Not that any of this will happen anytime soon, because the NEA (biggest teachers' union) is one of the most five most influential (IIRC) lobbying groups in the country, and time and time again they've made it clear that their agenda does not consist of delivering the best education possible to American public school students.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-02-03 10:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:To expand on my earlier comment regarding teacher's unions, there is a massive surplus of English and History teachers, at least in my country and probably in yours. One of the reasons for this is that English and History are ridiculously easy to take in university as compared to, say, science or engineering. Science and Engineering grads, therefore, expect more money than an English or History major if they're going to teach. But do they get it? Of course not, because the teacher's union regulates pay by seniority.

There is no supply and demand equation; even when a school board is hurting for qualified teachers in a particular field, they can't pay more for a teacher in that field because of the union. So what you get is a teacher group whose skills breakdown does NOT match the demands of the classroom. Yet another wondrous boon of large public-service unions

Of course there is is a supply and demand equation, the teachers' unions just don't give a damn about it.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-02-03 10:10pm

Make it mandatory for all students to read the Bible for at least 3 hours a day instead of science books. Allow prayer in schools. Shun any and all non-Christian ideology. Teach Astrology.

Wait... it is already getting there!

(Before the flames start licking my chops, and in case it is not obvious, I AM BEING SARCASTIC)

Whoa. You nearly had me going there.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-03 10:23pm

obiously Bean flunked spelling

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-02-03 10:26pm

Yes, get better teachers.
I've been fortunate enough to attend good schools, but I am aware of places with very idiotic teachers.

Honestly, I like PE. It provides physical activity which many kids and teens sorely need today.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-03 10:28pm

obiously Bean flunked spelling

Acutal I did, I flunked ever single Spelling test I've EVER taken

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-03 10:38pm

In TIMSS, at the eighth-grade level among
the 41 nations, 32 nations statistically outscored Louisiana in
mathematics. Worse, 36 nations outscored the District of Columbia. But
only six nations in the world beat Iowa and Nebraska in mathematics. In
science, 26 nations outperformed Mississippi, and 37 nations beat the
District. But only one nation, Singapore, scored above Colorado,
Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska,
North Dakota, Oregon, Utah, Vermont, Wisconsin and Wyoming.

Which America are we talking about? The craptacular District of Columbia or the 14 states tied for #2 in the world?

I agree that schools need to be reformed, but America is really not as bad as people claim. The union needs to be weakened (not completely destroyed...I've seen the schools attempt to persecute teachers for no reason too many times to promote its destruction) so that teachers that are needed can be hired. We need to overall increase funding to the worst schools so they can acquire proper textbooks and technological equipment. However, we need to avoid becoming overly focused on international test scores. However much the propagandists may say we suck, we're within 18% of the top nation in math and 11% in science. As my next paragraph explains, the sacrifics made for those gains most likely are not worth it.

In Japan today, 70% of students attend private schools called juku because of the perceived low quality of public schools. Since they are still required to attend public schools, they attend school from 7 am to 10 pm, beginning in elementary school. Often they do not get to sleep until 1 am, meaning they have at best 5 hours of sleep per night, including weekends. According to Americans who have taught there, the Japanese word to best describe their educational process is kurushime - torture. South Korean families will spend 20-30% of their income on private tutors. School weeks of 80 hours are not uncommon. Is all this worth an 18% difference in math and 11% in science? Can we afford to remove all vestiges of individuality and social ability just to raise a few test scores?