How much power to run a million electric cars?

[His Divine Shadow]

I am trying to find out how much electricity would a million cars on the road would require. Would it take a whole nuclear power plant?

I suppose first you'd need to get an average, how much fuel would a car require on average per day? 30KWh or something? Maybe more? That'd mean 3000MW per day, or two 1500MW reactors.

Maybe someone has already done this in more detail somewhere? If so a link would be appreciated.

[His Divine Shadow]

Also does anyone know any solid figures for how much an electric car would use per mile? I've seen some figures of 1KWh/mile.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well from what I've been able to find out an electric car requires about .3KWh per mile, so it doesn't seem like a million new cars would require that much. Using average driving per day for sweden I got 12KWh in consumption so for a million cars you get something like 3600GWh per year. Which isn't that much considering the swedish grid supplies 146,200GWh per year, so it looks like maybe you can go electric quite some way without massive nuclear buildup.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Would you mind providing your sources? I'm actually doing a mock proposal on expanded nuclear power at school and could use them.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well to begin with all this was rather cryptic and fragmented, I was typing it as I had the time while I was at work. But I decided to go with Sweden as the country to base it on. I found the figure for the yearly swedish energy consumption on SCB, or the Statistical Central Bureau, here, but it's in swedish:
http://www.scb.se/templates/pressinfo____192948.asp

The figures for what an electric car uses I found on this blog, other sources seem to cite similar figures too:
http://greenomics.blogspot.com/2006/08/ ... c-car.html

I had a source that said average swede drove 60km per day but this one from a government site says 15000km per year which comes to 41km per day, so my earlier figures have to be revised downwards if one takes this source to be more authorative:
http://www.vv.se/templates/page3____25630.aspx

[Sea Skimmer]

Generating capacity isn’t the only limitation, at least in America our biggest problem (though supply is a huge issue) is often the transmission system. A huge amount of the electrical grid only works to supply power to large industrial and commercial firms too, which have there own transformers on site to step it down, so the supply to residential areas becomes an even tighter bottleneck.

Often peak electrical demand comes in the late summer afternoon when millions of people come home and its still hot so they turn on the ACs as well as lighting, computers ect…. If they also all go plug in electric cars at the same time that could be a huge problem. 12kwh is like running an AC for 6-12 hours. In addition, with rising costs of fossil fuels, we are likely to see more and more use of electrical stoves instead of natural gas in new construction. Of course they don’t run much, but the use will often fall in that critical summer late afternoon period.

I know in my area, while we’ve haven’t had to go to rolling blackouts in a long time, a lot of recent summers have seen significant brownouts to the point that certain things just stopped working entirely. And the summers haven’t even been bad the last couple years. Course our local energy companies are also being investigated for massive fraud and theft of Federal funding they got to do comprehensive studies into the areas future energy needs like eight years ago. They should have already been building new power plants and upgrading wires, now in a desperate attempt to save themselves from the charges they’ve claimed the study will begin ‘next year’

[ray245]

Instead of talking about the need to power a million electric cars, isn't it better to use those electricity and power trains and buses instead?

Personally, I am quite against the concept of private ownership of cars for the middle income group, who complain about the rising cost of transportation and tax on their cars and roads ( in singapore) . I mean, if you cannot afford a car, then don't buy them!

It is annoying to hear people who is considered poor in other nation owning a car, yet at the same time, my middle income family don't have a car to sustain our lifestyle.

[Crayz9000]

That would be nice, except here in the Los Angeles area we have a massive (if barely functional) investment in freeways and very little room to build new trains. That said, the MTA here has made a large investment in light electric rail and subways, but the simple fact is they don't go everywhere and waiting for a bus just isn't practical for most people.

There's just too much sprawl here.

[ray245]

That would be nice, except here in the Los Angeles area we have a massive (if barely functional) investment in freeways and very little room to build new trains. That said, the MTA here has made a large investment in light electric rail and subways, but the simple fact is they don't go everywhere and waiting for a bus just isn't practical for most people.

There's just too much sprawl here.

Improve the bus service then, expand the bus stops, increase the frequency of bus travelling from one stop to another.

[Junghalli]

Instead of talking about the need to power a million electric cars, isn't it better to use those electricity and power trains and buses instead?

Maybe, but realistically at least here in America the car culture is deeply entrenched. IMO trying to get people to switch to electric cars will probably be easier than trying to convince them to give up their cars entirely.

[ray245]

Instead of talking about the need to power a million electric cars, isn't it better to use those electricity and power trains and buses instead?

Maybe, but realistically at least here in America the car culture is deeply entrenched. IMO trying to get people to switch to electric cars will probably be easier than trying to convince them to give up their cars entirely.

Well, slavery in the past is deeply entreched as well. If the government decides to raise taxes on cars, and if possible use road congestion as an excuse to impose a road tax, it might discourage more people from owning cars. And in return, public transport can be improved, from getting them better buses, decreasing the cost of public transportation and so on.

The people can complain about it for all they want, but it is necessary to do so, even if it may result in a political sucide, and have a low approval rating.

[Bilbo]

Personally, I am quite against the concept of private ownership of cars for the middle income group,

How very elitest of you.

The biggest problem though is the simple fact that a rather large percentage of Americans prefer to live in the suburbs as opposed to urban environments and no one has yet created or even demonstrated a public transportation system that will function effectively in the spread out living environment of suburbia.

[Bilbo]

Instead of talking about the need to power a million electric cars, isn't it better to use those electricity and power trains and buses instead?

Maybe, but realistically at least here in America the car culture is deeply entrenched. IMO trying to get people to switch to electric cars will probably be easier than trying to convince them to give up their cars entirely.

Well, slavery in the past is deeply entreched as well. If the government decides to raise taxes on cars, and if possible use road congestion as an excuse to impose a road tax, it might discourage more people from owning cars. And in return, public transport can be improved, from getting them better buses, decreasing the cost of public transportation and so on.

The people can complain about it for all they want, but it is necessary to do so, even if it may result in a political sucide, and have a low approval rating.

The bolded part is why Democrat elitest pigs like you can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. As far as your type is concerned the people are just serfs to be fucked with at governments leisure.

[salm]

Personally, I am quite against the concept of private ownership of cars for the middle income group,

How very elitest of you.

The biggest problem though is the simple fact that a rather large percentage of Americans prefer to live in the suburbs as opposed to urban environments and no one has yet created or even demonstrated a public transportation system that will function effectively in the spread out living environment of suburbia.

That´s one reason you need to get rid of suburbia. Ultra dense residential areas are the future we need to look forwards to.

[Bilbo]

Personally, I am quite against the concept of private ownership of cars for the middle income group,

How very elitest of you.

The biggest problem though is the simple fact that a rather large percentage of Americans prefer to live in the suburbs as opposed to urban environments and no one has yet created or even demonstrated a public transportation system that will function effectively in the spread out living environment of suburbia.

That´s one reason you need to get rid of suburbia. Ultra dense residential areas are the future we need to look forwards to.

You want to live in your urban shithole that is your choice. It is not one that everyone will or should have to do.

[salm]

You want to live in your urban shithole that is your choice. It is not one that everyone will or should have to do.

It will become necessary sooner or later. Spread out residential areas mean more energy consumption due to longer travel distances and bigger houses mean more energy consumption as well.
In order to stop global warming we´ll have to compromise some forms of luxury. If this means giving up suburbia everyone should have to do so.

Also if you believe that dense, urban residential areas are necessarily shitholes you´re dumber than a brick.

[NoXion]

The bolded part is why Democrat elitest pigs like you can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. As far as your type is concerned the people are just serfs to be fucked with at governments leisure.

Hey fuckface, perhaps you didn't notice but private ownership of petroleum-fuelled cars is not only inefficient as hell and unnecessarily polluting, but also not a fucking right.

[salm]

The bolded part is why Democrat elitest pigs like you can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. As far as your type is concerned the people are just serfs to be fucked with at governments leisure.

Hey fuckface, perhaps you didn't notice but private ownership of petroleum-fuelled cars is not only inefficient as hell and unnecessarily polluting, but also not a fucking right.

I like how he completely ignores that it´s conservative assholes that try to control what people do in their bedrooms, whom they marry and will send thier army into a clusterfuck of a blood shed with absolutely no reason at all. But no, it´s the evil democrats who push the people around.
Also it´s interesting that i´m not aware of any Democrats suggesting anything like Ray did, who is IIRC not a Democrat. So fuckface here is not only a moron but also a lying, distorting scum bag.

[Coalition]

Generating capacity isn’t the only limitation, at least in America our biggest problem (though supply is a huge issue) is often the transmission system. A huge amount of the electrical grid only works to supply power to large industrial and commercial firms too, which have there own transformers on site to step it down, so the supply to residential areas becomes an even tighter bottleneck.

Often peak electrical demand comes in the late summer afternoon when millions of people come home and its still hot so they turn on the ACs as well as lighting, computers ect…. If they also all go plug in electric cars at the same time that could be a huge problem. 12kwh is like running an AC for 6-12 hours. In addition, with rising costs of fossil fuels, we are likely to see more and more use of electrical stoves instead of natural gas in new construction. Of course they don’t run much, but the use will often fall in that critical summer late afternoon period.

I know in my area, while we’ve haven’t had to go to rolling blackouts in a long time, a lot of recent summers have seen significant brownouts to the point that certain things just stopped working entirely. And the summers haven’t even been bad the last couple years. Course our local energy companies are also being investigated for massive fraud and theft of Federal funding they got to do comprehensive studies into the areas future energy needs like eight years ago. They should have already been building new power plants and upgrading wires, now in a desperate attempt to save themselves from the charges they’ve claimed the study will begin ‘next year’

Heh, Shadowrun 1st edition had this problem also. During rush hour traffic, people who hadn't charged up their car's battery (or have an alternate engine) would be stuck when the GridLink power system would fail. It is nice to see real life imitating games.


Seriously:
Depending on range for an electric car (in miles per 'fill-up' compared to a gasoline car), we'll have to make some way of rapid-charging onboard batteries as well. Gas/charging stations will be designed to only service one car in a row, so they will be extremely wide, but not long. By only handling one car at a time, each person can charge their car and card at the same time, without needing to wait for the person in front to move. One-way routes through the stations will also be the norm, so you don't have two people trying to dash for the same charging/refueling slot.

The nice part about using electrical power to charge cars is that most gas stations already use electrical pumps with integrated credit card systems. An insulated 220V cable (so it doesn't affect the gas being pumped) would provide the car power, and the existing payment systems would be used for the per kilojoule fee. Of course, all the auto manufacturers would have to agree upon a common plug design and power supply to make this effective.