Hitler and repentance

[Darth Wong]

Running throughout all of the religion-related threads on this board is the persistent theme that repentance brings salvation. Now, I recognize that this is part of Christian dogma, and that Christians may not be inclined to question it.

Nevertheless, I think the question is worth asking: do apologies matter? Take the example of Hitler. One person criticized the Bible by pointing out that if Hitler was sorry for his crimes (he actually thought he was doing the righteous thing, but I digress), then God would accept his repentance and take him into Heaven. An apologist strenously pointed out that the apology must be genuine, ie- he must be truly sorry, not just "faking it".

But who really cares whether he's genuinely sorry or not? If someone does something horrible, does it matter whether he's sorry? Shouldn't he be punished anyway? There are many reasons for punishing crimes in society, such as justice (balancing out the victim's misfortune with that of the criminal in an attempt to equalize the scales), deterrent, mollifying the victim or the victim's family, etc. But as far as I can tell, none of those reasons is mitigated in any way by an apology, no matter how heartfelt.

So do apologies matter? If they matter, how much should they matter? Should punishments be slightly reduced? Or totally eliminated, as per the Christian philosophy? Can you justify your answer?

PS. Just to forestall the inevitable, it is not a legitimate justification to simply say that it is so, or to quote the Bible.

[Mr Bean]

You better Belive it!

Repetance is part and Parcel of the Catholic Church, Infact this is somthing I learned from Christian Friends long ago, Do you know there are not one, not two, but SIX ways to get into Heaven No matter what your actions on the Planet are?

If I drink the blood of a Thousand Newborns, Removed the Viture from a million women and take a leak on the rock in the dome of the Rock I still have Six possibilites to get into Heaven by Cathloic standereds?

The First is the classic, A personal, Note PERSONAL blessing by anyone of Arch-Decon or Higher Status automaticly absovles you of all sins, Set the Arc of the Convent on Fire? No Biggy The Pope can make that bad sin go away

Second is an out-shoot of the first, If you become a Priest your automaticly absolved of all Sins to that Point and as long as your given last rights by a fellow Priest you are absolved of everything at death

Third that which formed the Basis for the Movie Dodgma, Yes indeed its true, Get out of Sin free if you walk through the Doors of a Church on the day of its Re-consetrcation

Fourth- This one is some-what iffy as I get mixed reports on it, As long as you wear a "Rosrary"(Small necklace) at all times until you die you are automactiyl allowed into Heaven all sins forgiven

Five- Be the Pope, If your the Pope you get into Heaven no matter what
Past or Present, even if your kicked out of Popeship you still get in for holding the title

Six-While any old Prieset Can give you last rights and any old High Church Offical Can absolve you of all sins at any time except Death, The Pope himself if he gives you last rights you get into Heaven

Christianity is a fun religion

*Edit later oh yes and the other possible is Seven its not done much today but if you Give your eartly Possiesions to the Church on your Death-bed and repent then you get in to
It was done all the time in earlier years but the Church stoped because they owned most everything and people smarted up

[Pablo Sanchez]

Since we're dealing with a heaven and hell situation, that changes things. On Earth, you have to deal with the situation rather more harshly, because a person can be a danger to himself and others; whereas in heaven or hell he couldn't hurt someone else if he wanted to. If we're talking about an afterlife, yes, I think that a genuine repentance should save someone's soul. We're talking about eternity, after all.

On Earth imprisonment is also preventative, you can say that "this man will not kill again, as long as he is incarcerated/dead." Hell is essentially God's vengeance for your sin (or simple ignorance). Only an awful person holds such an irrational grudge, and if we assume God is perfect, the existence of Hell is ruled out.

Unfortunately the Old Testament shows that Jehovah is a vengeful asshole whose only concern is that everyone worship him.

[Guest]

Actually, I understand that criminals who show signs of repentance in their trials do receive, on average, less severe verdicts. It may not be written in the law, but since the judges are just human, it happens.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Fourth- This one is some-what iffy as I get mixed reports on it, As long as you wear a "Rosrary"(Small necklace) at all times until you die you are automactiyl allowed into Heaven all sins forgiven

Eh, that's pretty well BS.

[Mr Bean]

Like I said, Why I included Seven later on about Giving your stuff to the Church which I know was praticed

[Wicked Pilot]

A wise man once said: The nonvirtueous man ask for forgiveness through words. The virtueous man earns it through actions.

[Johonebesus]

Personally, I think that there is a difference between punishment in this realm and the next. You are right about the social reasons for punishment. We need to punish criminals for many reasons to keep society safe and functioning; however, in my opinion, damnation is not about punishing evil people. Damnation is the natural result of consciously rejecting God. Most of the references to the fate of the damned seem to indicate a second death, not eternal torment. (It's fun to explain to fundamentalists that one of their most cherished beliefs is based on tradition and word-play, not strict interpretation.) I feel that if Hitler had truly repented before his death, and if he had not died by suicide, then he would have been forgiven by God. Of course, the Catholic Church teaches that there is a difference between guilt and punishment. One might be forgiven, but one must still suffer punishment, so Hitler, had he truly repented, might have had to spend a very, very, very long time in purgatory. Interestingly, Zarathustra seems to have taught that at least some evil people would have their wickedness "purged" in the afterlife and eventually be allowed into paradise.

[Mr Bean]

A wise man once said: The nonvirtueous man ask for forgiveness through words. The virtueous man earns it through actions.

Ahh Confusious that old bastion of Chinese Culture

[Next of Kin]

By Mr.Bean

Five- Be the Pope, If your the Pope you get into Heaven no matter what
Past or Present, even if your kicked out of Popeship you still get in for holding the title

I thought Dante had one or two Popes in the lower levels of hell. Even being the supreme cheese of the catholic church can't get you a get-out-of-jail-free card.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

So do apologies matter?

Nope.

Can you justify your answer?

If a person knows what they did is wrong, then they should also know that they need to be punished for it. An apology shouldn't result in a lower sentence or people might fake remorse for just that reason.

But to put my opinions in perspective, I think any violent offender shouldn't be let out of prison will they can prove they will not reoffend. And remorse would have to be part of that proof.

[Durandal]

This is one of the only times I'm going to praise the Catholic Church, so listen up, and listen well. :)

The Church holds a belief in Purgatory, because they think that when most people die, they're not good enough to get into Heaven, but they're not bad enough to go to Hell, either. So, Purgatory is a sort of cleansing process/middle ground/toll booth on the way to Heaven. You get purified there, then you can move on to Heaven, but Purgatory involves suffering.

I like this belief. Unlike other portions of the Church's dogma, it acknowledges that humans make mistakes, but that most people simply aren't evil enough to deserve an eternity of suffering.

Catholic dogma would hold that, if Hitler were truly sorry for what he did, he would go through Purgatory (probably stay there a long time), then enter Heaven. The catch is that he has to repent before his death (don't ask me; that's just the belief). For some reason, you can't apologize to God when you are judged.

Just some information. Move along.

[Stravo]

Interestingly enough, Lord Wong seems to be referring to something I wrote on another thread. Just to be clear this is what I believe. Redemption is possible for anyone, no matter how evil, wretched or debased. It is ridiculous to say someone is all evil. There are no people who are purely evil, because they would not be human. Human is to have evil within us AND the potential to do good. Human nature, and more specifically, the human soul is a COMPLEX thing, we all live with shadow and light and most of us can do horrible things, we have that potential, but we can also do good things. The idea of redemption and forgiveness plays on human frailty.

Hitler was a dog lover, he cared about his friends, taking them up with him on his rise to power even though he recognized that some of them were unqualified for their posts, but they had been loyal to him and he rewarded loyalty. Pure evil? No. Were his actions during the war and the holocaust horrible and reprehensible? YES. No one (at least not me) is arguing that Hitler was a misunderstood man. He was a vicious bastard and one of history's great mass murderers. BUT if he were truly repetant, if he could not live with the guilt of what he had done and begged god for forgiveness, God would forgive. NOW does that mean that the mustached bastard doesn't get the gas chamber (Ironic?) NO. Human justice is a different matter altogether. BUt God is not human, God loves and forgives. He loves all of us, even the murderers and killers. That sounds awful to some but I will not judge someone's love for his creations.

Does an apology matter? I don't honestly know because we don't have the power to look in a man's heart to know otherwise. The cynic will say, no, an apology is just words. The dreamer will say, accept a man at his word, if he lies to us, he has himself and god to answer to.

Funny little thing. We are all Wars fans, and one of the CENTRAL plot lines of our favorite series is the rise and fall and REDEMPTION of a man who went from being a hero to being one of the worst villains in the history of a galaxy. Yet by saving his son, ALL his other crimes seemed to have been erased and he joined the Light Side again, so I would profer that perhaps GL shares the same views on redemption and forgiveness.

Some key points: I am NOT a Fundie, hate them, despise them for what they spew. I am NOT overly religious (can't remember the last time I was at church). I just do Believe and that is anyone's right, just as I would support anyone else's right NOT to believe. There is a lot of room in this wide world for all of us.

[Captain Cyran]

I'm Christian....but I am oh so thankful that I am not Catholic.

[Priesto]

Hitler did not worship nor believe in the son of God so an apology to something he doesn't believe will get him nothing.Repentence isn't a simple apology, it takes time.Through good works in the Lord's name and so forth.Of course if he did somehow wholeheartedly repent, he'd still suffer some.That couldn't happen due to his raising though, and God allowed such a man to come into the world for a specific reason anyways.Just like Lucifer, there's a time where it's too late.Someone full of hate could never turn back after a while, since evil consumes.

[Priesto]

I'll comment on the victims.Future generations of people sometimes must suffer due to the past generations sins.This happens everyday, as well as in biblical times.

[Robert Treder]

I'll comment on the victims.Future generations of people sometimes must suffer due to the past generations sins.This happens everyday, as well as in biblical times.

What is your damage, son?

Care to explain why people "must" suffer because of their ancestors's sins?

On second thought, don't bother explaining. It can't possibly make any sense, so I don't want to hear it.

[Mr. B]

What is your damage, son?

Care to explain why people "must" suffer because of their ancestors's sins?

On second thought, don't bother explaining. It can't possibly make any sense, so I don't want to hear it.

Just look at his posts on the Teen Creationism thread. nuff said.

[LordShaithis]

Nobody bagged this tidbit before me? Oh joy!

"Hitler did not worship nor believe in the son of God so an apology to something he doesn't believe will get him nothing"

Hey dumbass, read the website you're posting on: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... tler.shtml

Hitler was a Christian. Sorry. Deal.

[Mr Bean]

I thought Dante had one or two Popes in the lower levels of hell. Even being the supreme cheese of the catholic church can't get you a get-out-of-jail-free card

Dante is a writer, Not a High Church Offical, His Version of Hell was one where all the people who wronged him got to burn or freeze or what-not

Dante did not write the Bible Nor Church Doctrine

Yeesh watch out your using Darkstar Logic there(Its true because I say it is)

[Darth Wong]

Of course if he did somehow wholeheartedly repent, he'd still suffer some. That couldn't happen due to his raising though,

His strict Catholic upbringing?

and God allowed such a man to come into the world for a specific reason anyways.

Ahh, so the Holocaust was God's fault, and Hitler was just a pawn. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Wicked Pilot]

A wise man once said: The nonvirtueous man ask for forgiveness through words. The virtueous man earns it through actions.

Ahh Confusious that old bastion of Chinese Culture

Actually, those are my own words. However, I will admit that I'm not much of a wise man. Most people consider me marginally intelligent.

[Next of Kin]

By Mr. Bean

Dante is a writer, Not a High Church Offical, His Version of Hell was one where all the people who wronged him got to burn or freeze or what-not

My bad! I was under the false assumption that Dante's Comedy was held as cannon by the church. I know better now!

[Nick]

USAF Ace's self-quote pretty much says it all as far as the real world is concerned. . . genuine contrition and aan effort to make amends should not be casually dismissed. Then again, for some things, no practical amends can be made (it's a little tricky to un-murder or un-rape someone). So, for the real world, while apologies can be valuable and meaningful, if they are genuine the offender should recognise the justice associated with their punishment.

For the afterworld, I can't think of anything evil enough to justify an eternity of torment - so, for those who profess faith in both eternal life and a loving, compassionate God, I consider the doctrine of the Catholic Church (or something similar) to be the only self-consistent approach (once the concept of Hell is pretty much discarded). Those who die go to Purgatory where they suffer in due measure for their sins (perhaps by truly understanding the depths of the suffering they caused? Or perhaps they get to experience every piece of suffering they caused during their life? Lots of possibilities once we get metaphysical), before proceeding on to join the choirs of Heaven.

As for the comparison to Vader's redemption: Vader was forgiven by his son, not by anyone else. Vader's redemption was important for Luke's own sense of being - for him to know that, no matter twisted his father had become, there was still good in him. Vader's killing of the Emperor and saving of Luke were admirable - but he was still an evil, murdering bastard. A change of heart brought on by watching his son getting tortured in front of him isn't enough to cancel that out.

[Mr Bean]

My bad! I was under the false assumption that Dante's Comedy was held as cannon by the church. I know better now!

You have to remeber Kin of what some of the people on this board think and say, minus smilesy its hard to tell when somone is kidding

Don't belive me? Spend a day with Darkstar