Does God or gods even control his or her destiny?

[ray245]

In another thread, I viewed the world whereby fate is essentially pre-determined, and any actions we are doing now is not a matter of choice due to the fact that we have no control over the past. What happens in the past shapes the world today , from the meeting of our parents to strangers we have never met able to influence us through a butterfly effect. That past is in turn, shaped by their past as well. And us living in the present shapes the destiny of people in the future, from their existence to their personality.

That past events is the things that ensured we are born in the first place and how we interact with society, and our fate or destiny is pre-determined, the moment the Big Bang occurred. This 'fate' I am talking about is neither good or evil, just like how 1+1=2 is neither good or evil, and no amount of begging for help is going to change anything at all, because it can't be changed. The 'start of time' in some ways, is the thing that determined how everything will react without even being aware of what it has done. If someone is able to manipulate the 'start of time', there won't be a 'start of time'.

Now, every culture has their stories about their gods interacting with humans and etc. The problem is, any action of a god would be affected by the action of the Mortals. Any god or being that is sentient or alive so to speak, will still be under the influence of his environment and his past.

For example, if a god has to react to people building the tower of bable, it means he is controlled by the actions of his past, and the actions of the mortals. He cannot wish an event not to happen because it already does, and he is forced by fate to take certain actions. He is angry for example, because past events and his environment make him angry, and he can't control the past to ensure he won't be angry. And for a person to return to the past, he must experience the present. If he cannot experience the present, he cannot make any 'decisions' to return to the past and correct his mistake.

Which means anything in this entire universe that is capable of making decisions doesn’t have any free will at all. That god himself, on the assumption that he or she really exist, will be bound by the same fate everyone being will experienced, from an cell to a Human being.

That god or gods, if they exist, can't even control over his or her actions, nor can they even control their destiny, and what is going to happen to them next, simply on the basis that they are 'in' this universe, and is affected by what happened in the past, and what is going on in their environment.


Crap, my heads hurts after this post, from all the time travel ideas and etc. I simply have no idea if this idea of mine is correct to some extent, or completely wrong. Perhaps the more learned members can share some insight?

Shit, I posted this in the wrong forum section, this topic should be in SLAM.

[Samuel]

Correct. That is the basic premise of determinism. Additionally, you are forgeting internal movers (psychology) for Gods- just because they are supernatural doesn't mean they can ignore logic.

[Edi]

This thread was moved from OT because it fits better into SLAM and the move was requested.

[Guardsman Bass]

It depends on the mythology. If I recall correctly, the Gods of the Vikings were more or less doomed to fight in the last battle (Ragnarok).

[ray245]

I don't think it only applies to certain myths. The reason I argued the God does not control over his or her own destiny is due to the fact that he is active and interact with the mortals and the environment. I don't mean gods fated to fight for the end of days and etc. I mean gods that cannot control what they are going to do one second later due to fate.

[Samuel]

I don't think it only applies to certain myths. The reason I argued the God does not control over his or her own destiny is due to the fact that he is active and interact with the mortals and the environment. I don't mean gods fated to fight for the end of days and etc. I mean gods that cannot control what they are going to do one second later due to fate.

Determinism. Which applies to everything- there is no "free will"- the only alternative is randomness.

[ray245]

I don't think it only applies to certain myths. The reason I argued the God does not control over his or her own destiny is due to the fact that he is active and interact with the mortals and the environment. I don't mean gods fated to fight for the end of days and etc. I mean gods that cannot control what they are going to do one second later due to fate.

Determinism. Which applies to everything- there is no "free will"- the only alternative is randomness.

I thought that both theory would have the same effect, where you don't have a choice in making decisions of your own so to speak?

We can hardly call a god being controlled by randomness a god that is in control of his destiny can we?

Which means a god as a being who knows every single piece of infomation and etc simply cannot interact with the universe or its creation so to speak.

[Akkleptos]

Determinism. Which applies to everything- there is no "free will"- the only alternative is randomness.

True, there's no free will, at least as we traditionally understand "freedom". Plus, when it comes to human actions, there is no real "randomness", because, say you don't want to do anything predetermined by your present circumstances, life-experience and genetics: even in such a case, the craziest, most non-sensical action you could come up with would be predetermined by your idea of craziness and randomness, by what's on your mind (conscious AND subconscious), and your neuronal paths, and everything that makes your mind work (down to what you had for breakfast, or what you just watched on the telly).

Should you decide to use, say, a die, to ensure "randomness", the roll of the die itself will be predetermined by how you roll it, the strength and size of your fingers/hand/arm, its weight distribution, air flow, irregularities on the suface on which it bounces, and so on. Same for any other method to obtain a "random" result.

Some say that, in the face of tese facts, we should only "act" as if we had free will and things weren't all predetermined. And that's quite easy: if we don't previously know (or are able to calculate) the outcome of a decision or even a coin toss; or what the subconscious part of our mind will do, then, as far as we know, there is "randomness" and we have "free will".

[NecronLord]

Now, every culture has their stories about their gods interacting with humans and etc. The problem is, any action of a god would be affected by the action of the Mortals. Any god or being that is sentient or alive so to speak, will still be under the influence of his environment and his past.

If you mean a no-limits-can-do-anything god like most modern believers subscribe to (as opposed to say, Zeus or Odin) no, determinism shouldn't affect such an entity. Such a being would have determined fate at the time of creation, and could happily wind back the universe any run it in a different way anyway, if he wanted that. Absolutely everything that possibly exists is his bitch and he can alter in any way he chooses, change the past of, or otherwise screw with. The laws of physics have no meaning to the god most modern believers imagine, to the point that several groups (the Catholic church) define 'Miracle' as 'God, in his majesty, suspending the laws of physics.' (or in their language, 'an express grace of god above the power of nature')

This is where Calvinists get their idea that only 'The Elect' who God has previously chosen, will be saved, and everyone else, regardless of how pious or good they are, is doomed. The gap between divine perfection and mortal error is infinite that it's literally impossible to impress, please or placate god; their god saves people (who just happen to be them) on whim, really.

The Judeo-Christian god (as popularly believed in, if not in the actual texts) can:

• See things before they happen.
• Change people's actions.

Consequently, the doings of mortals do not influence him, unless he chooses to be influenced. He could quite happily make people not sin against him, and make them all sing his praises endlessly, but he doesn't.

In short, he could destroy the entire universe with a click of his fingers. This is not a being that is limited by any kind of predestination that arises from physics. He can end physics on a whim.

[ray245]

Now, every culture has their stories about their gods interacting with humans and etc. The problem is, any action of a god would be affected by the action of the Mortals. Any god or being that is sentient or alive so to speak, will still be under the influence of his environment and his past.

If you mean a no-limits-can-do-anything god like most modern believers subscribe to (as opposed to say, Zeus or Odin) no, determinism shouldn't affect such an entity. Such a being would have determined fate at the time of creation, and could happily wind back the universe any run it in a different way anyway, if he wanted that. Absolutely everything that possibly exists is his bitch and he can alter in any way he chooses, change the past of, or otherwise screw with. The laws of physics have no meaning to the god most modern believers imagine, to the point that several groups (the Catholic church) define 'Miracle' as 'God, in his majesty, suspending the laws of physics.' (or in their language, 'an express grace of god above the power of nature')

This is where Calvinists get their idea that only 'The Elect' who God has previously chosen, will be saved, and everyone else, regardless of how pious or good they are, is doomed. The gap between divine perfection and mortal error is infinite that it's literally impossible to impress, please or placate god; their god saves people (who just happen to be them) on whim, really.

The Judeo-Christian god (as popularly believed in, if not in the actual texts) can:

• See things before they happen.
• Change people's actions.

Consequently, the doings of mortals do not influence him, unless he chooses to be influenced. He could quite happily make people not sin against him, and make them all sing his praises endlessly, but he doesn't.

In short, he could destroy the entire universe with a click of his fingers. This is not a being that is limited by any kind of predestination that arises from physics. He can end physics on a whim.

The problem with this idea, when compared to the issue of determinism is this. In order for god to reverse time and change everything from start again, he has to experienced the end effect. In short, he is bound by fate to allow that event to happen, before he can make a decision to change the entire course of events. He simply cannot decide fate, because he needs to be influenced

Any thing that is capable of making a decision is bound by fate to make decision or not, even if he is god.

If the Judeo-Christian god can see things before it happened, that means he does not have a choice in influencing that possibility from existing or not. Using the logic of determinism, a god can predict the future to 100 percent, because he is able to know everything as it is. He knows every law of physics, he understand every single event, from major events to minor events.

Also, in order to change a person's action, he has to interact with the mortals. Simply by interaction, you are essentially bound by fate to do certain things. The single moment he is interacting with a mortal, the mortals action will influenced god, and that means god is bounded by his own decision, when he choose to create the universe.

Sure, this god can determine fate since the creation of the universe, by he does not have a choice in choosing what kind of fate it will be.

A 'no-limit' god can make a person worship him if he wanted to, but this god cannot choose to do so.

Just because this god is all powerful does not mean he has a choice over his own decision.

He himself, don't have free will as well.

That is what I am saying.

[NecronLord]

The problem with this idea, when compared to the issue of determinism is this. In order for god to reverse time and change everything from start again, he has to experienced the end effect. In short, he is bound by fate to allow that event to happen, before he can make a decision to change the entire course of events. He simply cannot decide fate, because he needs to be influenced

The god of modern monotheists has infinite willpower and knowledge; he knows all possible outcomes, and cannot be swayed against his will (even where scripture says otherwise, remember I'm talking about the popular conception, not the god who gets beat up by iron chariots). Any influence the world could have on him is not meaningful.

Any thing that is capable of making a decision is bound by fate to make decision or not, even if he is god.

Fate being? The monotheistic god exists beyond time and space. He can perform acausal acts. He is in complete control of time.

If the Judeo-Christian god can see things before it happened, that means he does not have a choice in influencing that possibility from existing or not.

Except he can then choose to change those things.

Using the logic of determinism, a god can predict the future to 100 percent, because he is able to know everything as it is. He knows every law of physics, he understand every single event, from major events to minor events.

Also, in order to change a person's action, he has to interact with the mortals. Simply by interaction, you are essentially bound by fate to do certain things.

The direct interaction of god is popularly seen as a suspension of physical laws; see the above quote. When god chooses to do something to the world, he just makes it so with a wave of his magic beard.

The single moment he is interacting with a mortal, the mortals action will influenced god, and that means god is bounded by his own decision, when he choose to create the universe.

Which he could undo at any time, negating creation and ending time. He can also bring the universe to an end by cataclysm, or alter time as he pleases.

Sure, this god can determine fate since the creation of the universe, by he does not have a choice in choosing what kind of fate it will be.

A 'no-limit' god can make a person worship him if he wanted to, but this god cannot choose to do so.

The no limit god is what's believed in. If I went into a church or mosque, and asked if god can do anything, the answer I would get is 'yes.' The limitless power and ability of god is a key tenet of these religions as they're currently practiced.

Your conception of what god should be and mine (which is 'nonexistant) has no bearing on how people generally percieve god. In the modern era, god is generally believed to be literally, all, powerful.

You may as well say 'well, I imagine god as Ra from stargate, so you can shoot him in the face with a beretta and he falls down dead as a doornail.'

That has no bearing on the god people believe in.

Just because this god is all powerful does not mean he has a choice over his own decision.

He himself, don't have free will as well.

That is what I am saying.

How do you work that out?

God pre-exists the universe, can perform acausal acts, and will post-exist it. He has the ability to suspend causality at will, change time, and alter reality as he pleases.

[NecronLord]

Allow me to summarise. The popular conception of the Christian/Muslim god is roughly thus:

• Anthropomorphic, masculine, paternal
• Invincible and immortal
• Able to do anything he can concieve of doing¹
• Outside (beyond) the physical universe, and un-governed by its laws.
• Possesses some kind of time-flow of his own, which predated existance and will post-date it (eternal life).
• Cares about humans, and sends messages (often via prophets or angelic servants²) and works miracles (wonderous acts contrary to the known laws of physics) to reassure them of his prescence and teach them.

This god, aside from responding to mortals, also has many other influences (a whole angelic court for a start) and has a total ability to suspend time at any point he chooses.

While he is capable of predicting the future, he is also capable of changing it, because he's all powerful. The omnipotence of this character is non-negotiable to worshippers. He can do exactly as he pleases, because he's God, of course.

An omnipotent character, who is beyond the physical universe, may be influenced by it, but its laws do not bind that character's thought processes, nor is he composed of mass-energy - he is not subject to cause and effect. His own will is unlimited in what it can accomplish, and he can quite happily do whatever he pleases.

¹ Yes, I know there's endless logical problems with this along the lines of 'can he make a rock he can't lift'; I didn't make the damn religion. Most adherents don't let this detail trouble them, so nor shall I.
² Here, Christians and Muslims part ways. Christians depict their angels as independant beings, whereas many Muslim theologians tend to claim they're extensions of god's will; however the existance of Iblis (Satan) a rebellious angel, suggests that they are not of one mind with Allah.

[NecronLord]

Even simpler, right to the point of it.

Causality is a law of natural science. The Muslim/Christian god is not limited to natural science; he exists beyond it, is its omnipotent creator, and can, at his leisure, change it.

While extending causality to the spiritual may seem logical, in this case it does not apply because of the sheer power ascribed to this entity; this entity can, at will, decide that throughout the universe, there will be no causality (one might well say god only knows what that would look like, our brains are adapted to find patterns, as Doug Adams points out here, this is probably why we come up with religions, such a universe would be utterly alien) this is what they believe god can do.

So in answer to your question, yes, the most popular (around 50% of the world profess to believe in the existance of this being) type of god would, if he existed, be in control his own destiny.

It is a philosophical conceit to assume that because a natural law applies to us, it must apply to a (fictional) entity that inhabits an entirely different environment and whose nature is utterly different. Yes, this god interacts with our world (supposedly) but he is in full control our our world.

[ray245]

Just several points to consider.

1. Why do we have to assume that god is all powerful?
2. Why must god be capable of thinking, and why do we have to assume that god has a personality?

[Starglider]

The notion of 'free will' is fundamentally broken. I have never seen anyone adequately define what they actually want it to mean. Obviously it can't exist if it doesn't even have a rigorous definition.

In actual fact 'free will' is yet another of those human reflective delusions; it's a convenient informal notion for reasoning about other humans in a tribal society, but it doesn't actually have a physical or formal basis.

P.S. If you don't want 'god' to mean 'sentient omnipotent entity', then what on earth do you want it to mean? Debating without definitions is futile.

[ray245]

The notion of 'free will' is fundamentally broken. I have never seen anyone adequately define what they actually want it to mean. Obviously it can't exist if it doesn't even have a rigorous definition.

In actual fact 'free will' is yet another of those human reflective delusions; it's a convenient informal notion for reasoning about other humans in a tribal society, but it doesn't actually have a physical or formal basis.

P.S. If you don't want 'god' to mean 'sentient omnipotent entity', then what on earth do you want it to mean? Debating without definitions is futile.

Well, I never considered god as sentient to begin with, which is why my religious affiliation is undefined. To me, I see no reason to define your religious affiliations.

I view god or gods to be just as sentient as the wind. And there is no point in worshipping something that does not have control over itself.

[Ghost Rider]

Just locking because Ray cannot grasp that switching the goal posts and never defining what he wants debated when he doesn't like an answer is a fucking fallacy.