Nearly 1/4 of Canada does not believe in any god

[Darth Wong]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/ ... -poll.html

Almost a quarter of Canadians don't believe in any god, new poll says
Last Updated: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 | 4:32 PM ET
The Canadian Press

Fewer than three-quarters of Canadians believe in a god, suggests a new Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey.

"Religion in Canada today is not a particularly divisive subject and tolerance levels for different beliefs are high," said Harris-Decima president Bruce Anderson. "This is evident in the fact that one in four people feel comfortable saying they do not believe in a god."

The poll found 72 per cent of respondents said they believed in a god, while 23 per cent said they did not believe in any god. Six per cent did not offer an opinion.

Results may not total 100 per cent because of rounding.

Polls have told a different story in the United States.

"Canada's secularism stands in clearer distinction, when compared to the cultural and political influences of religion in the United States," said Anderson. "In one Harris Interactive study in the United States, conducted in 2007, the number who said they were non-believers was only eight per cent."

Keith Howard, a United church minister and executive director of the church's Emerging Spirit program, said the results of the new survey do not represent a dramatic change from previous polls about Canadians' beliefs.

"We are past the time of people trashing God," he said. "They are now trying to find a safe place where they can nurture that spirituality."

He said a poll done for the church last year indicated Canada is a nation of believers, not belongers.

Howard said his sense is that people who believe in a god increasingly imagine a nebulous but powerful force for good, rather than the traditional concept of a deity.

Indeed, he likened the concept to that of the Force in the Star Wars movies.

A study quoted by Statistics Canada in 2006, found "adult Canadians attach a higher degree of importance to religion than religious attendance figures alone would indicate."

The study noted only one-third of adult Canadians attend religious services at least once a month.

But the study, conducted in 2002, found more than one-half engage in religious activities on their own at least on a monthly basis.

Howard said a recent survey done for the United Church rating the importance of religion in the daily lives of people around the world placed Canadians fourth, behind the United States, Mexico and Italy.

The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey data were gathered by telephone from just over 1,000 people between May 22 and May 26. A sample of the same size has a margin of error of 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

The Harris-Decima poll also indicated:

* Women (76 per cent) were more likely than men (67 per cent) to say they believed in a god.
* Canadians over the age of 50 (82 per cent) were far more likely than those under the age of 25 (60 per cent) to say they believed in a god. More than one in three (36 per cent) of those under the age of 25 said they did not believe in any god.
* English Canadians (73 per cent) were more likely than French Canadians (67 per cent) to say they believed in a god.
* Belief in a god is higher in rural Canada (76 per cent) than in urban Canada (69 per cent).

It's too bad the article has to spend all of its time getting spin-control from a Christian, and of course, makes no effort whatsoever to contact any kind of free-thought association for counterpoint. But the facts do speak for themselves: younger urbane people in Canada are rejecting god in increasing numbers.

[Solauren]

Proving once again Canada is smarter then the US

[Wicked Pilot]

We'll get there, don't worry.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Proving once again Canada is smarter then the US

"Than", rather.

This is good. At least ONE nation is moving forward in North America to rival Europe's falling out with organised religion.

[Darth Wong]

This is good. At least ONE nation is moving forward in North America to rival Europe's falling out with organised religion.

I can't help but wonder if the overt religiosity of our southern friends (particularly of the Republican variety) is driving a backlash among younger Canadians. They look at the continuous war-mongering money-hoarding gun-toting Bible thumping of the American right-wing and it sickens them, so they end up rejecting the entire belief system.

[Admiral Valdemar]

In that case, also good. The truly outrageous Bible bashers who have practically run the States for the last decade are probably the reason a lot of atheist and liberal communities are cropping up and becoming more vocal now. Nothing like a real slide back towards despotism under the Lord to shake the masses up. I still doubt Mexico would change though, or any Cetral and Southern American nations. Least, not for a while.

A lot of what has gone on here is down to apathy as well. Why should anyone care for such silly traditions, especially when their ways are often shown to be detrimental to others when it suits one side?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm proud to say that 25% of Washington State's population doesn't believe in any God, either.. But sadly that makes us the most a-religious state in the USA, whereas it would just be average in Canada.

[rhoenix]

I can't help but wonder if the overt religiosity of our southern friends (particularly of the Republican variety) is driving a backlash among younger Canadians. They look at the continuous war-mongering money-hoarding gun-toting Bible thumping of the American right-wing and it sickens them, so they end up rejecting the entire belief system.

Shit, it's working damn well here now, and I live in Canada's Mexico (USA). One thing that makes me smile is the backlash all this hyper-mouthbreathing-guns/god/glory-crowd this seems to be generating as a result now.

[Solauren]

Hopefully, a further backlash will be generated within the religious areas as it regards young people.

i.e; Gee, look at those people outside of these 'red states'. They have things along nicer then me, and the difference is they don't follow my religion. I wonder if there is a connection.....

[TithonusSyndrome]

Canadians seem to have been overall more receptive to the whole Dawkins/Harris/etc movement in my experience, but a lot of them are also probably simply emotheists and lapsed Christians who hold the potential to reconvert in a moment of weakness and a sense of loss, adding to the impression that atheism is a "phase" for angry young people.

Still, overall this can only be good, as it means serious atheists who have arrived at their conclusions via sound argumentation are probably growing in proportion to the former kind of disbelievers as well.

[Furlong]

Of the atheists I've met, the primary thing that drove them away from organized religion was how un-christian most Christians are.

[Traveller]

"We are past the time of people trashing God," he said. "They are now trying to find a safe place where they can nurture that spirituality."

Theres a weasel-word again, 'Spirituality'.

Wonder why they only choose a bible-thumper to reply. All he does in go into damage-control mode and offer up a lot of un-substantiated claims. You know what? Ive seen polls that show Canadians rate enviromental protection and being 'green' highly, but were still amoung the most wasteful in the world when it comes to energy consumption. Polls that talk about how people 'feel' as apposed to how they actually 'act', are in my opinion, less than useless. This poll more or less seems to imply Canadians as a whole are more religious than they apear to be..mmm ok

A study quoted by Statistics Canada in 2006, found "adult Canadians attach a higher degree of importance to religion than religious attendance figures alone would indicate."

.

Im not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean. I know tons of people that would qualify as CINO's (Christians In Name Only). Cultural inertia, lingering residual fear of the church etc. Canada has tons of these. They call themselves christian, or at least say they believe in 'god' but thats about the only thing I ever see come out of it. In fact, lot of the churches around here are in financial difficulties(ie big debts), churches being closed and consolidated, falling attendance and other problems even got signifigant press time not to long ago. Im of the observation, most people only call on the 'church', if your either a) dead or b) getting married. That probably accounts for the 'higher degree of importance' part they refer to, who knows?

Even the comment by this Bruce Anderson shows he is most likely a bible-thumper to some degree himself. He says 'One in four people are comfortable saying they do not believe in a god'. What? Im sure a lot of Canadians are 'comfortable' saying they dont believe santa claus is a real person too! Generally only fundys makes comments like that. Rejecting christians bullshit has nothing to do with comfort, its a intellectual exercise. Useing the word comfort is meant to imply that rejecting christianities worthless superstitons is a matter of emotion, rather than one of reason and intellect.

[Samuel]

Of the atheists I've met, the primary thing that drove them away from organized religion was how un-christian most Christians are.

"Killing Jesus? That doesn't seem very Christian"
-The Pope, South Park

Of course, such an attitude is due to the fact that Christian has been changed to mean nice, rather than following Christian doctrine which... varies on niceness. Into sheer unadulterated supervilliany on occasion.

Wonder why they only choose a bible-thumper to reply. All he does in go into damage-control mode and offer up a lot of un-substantiated claims. You know what? Ive seen polls that show Canadians rate enviromental protection and being 'green' highly, but were still amoung the most wasteful in the world when it comes to energy consumption. Polls that talk about how people 'feel' as apposed to how they actually 'act', are in my opinion, less than useless. This poll more or less seems to imply Canadians as a whole are more religious than they apear to be..mmm ok

I believe Canadian energy consumption is higher than the United States per capita due to the fact that Canada is significantly colder and has to use large amounts of energy on heat and bigger cars.

[Traveller]

Sorry Sam, but that wasnt the point. There are 2 big polling firms in Canada, and there constantly churning out polls, like this one, that essentially report back how we canadians *like* to feel and think about ourselves. Problem is...as I was attempting to point out, how we like to feel about ourselves seldom jive with the reality on the ground(despite there no doubt honest belief that there accurate 19/20 times +/- 3% In fact that saying is so well known its even been incorporated in jokes by some of our comedy writers). Thats it, nothing more. And yes, as someone that spent 25 years liveing ....not very far from alaska, I can assure you, we are amazeinly wasteful when it comes to energy utilization. And our greenness is mostly at this time, superficial to say the least. Again...to repeat, you would have a hard time telling this from listening to anything the big polling firms here tell us. They (often) present a much different(usually roiser) reality. Polls in this country are often used to control debates in this country, rather than inform them. I suspect were not alone in this regard however.

Ill repeat it again, the Poll the OP cites wants to have it both ways. It reports(correctly Canada is a largely secular nation), then goes on to say, in effect, were really a lot more religious than the numbers would seem to suggest. Polls do that here all the time Sam, regardless of whatever hotbutton topic there reporting on.

[Surlethe]

This is good. At least ONE nation is moving forward in North America to rival Europe's falling out with organised religion.

I can't help but wonder if the overt religiosity of our southern friends (particularly of the Republican variety) is driving a backlash among younger Canadians. They look at the continuous war-mongering money-hoarding gun-toting Bible thumping of the American right-wing and it sickens them, so they end up rejecting the entire belief system.

That would be interesting, since I understand a similar backlash drove the rise of the American right-wing. They looked at what they perceived as an immoral, decadent, secular humanist mainstream society and decided to "take it back for God". In the process, they've dragged the political center to the right. There are plenty of differences between the two, but the fact it's a response to cultural stimuli is itself interesting.

[Akkleptos]

In that case, also good. The truly outrageous Bible bashers who have practically run the States for the last decade are probably the reason a lot of atheist and liberal communities are cropping up and becoming more vocal now. Nothing like a real slide back towards despotism under the Lord to shake the masses up. I still doubt Mexico would change though, or any Cetral and Southern American nations. Least, not for a while.

Actually, the government in Mexico is quite secular (I'm not so sure about the rest of Latin America) despite the fact that the Catholic majority is still at least 80% of the population. Official relations with the Catholic church were resumed not so long ago, in the 1990's, after decades of silent tolerance. The Constitution is very clear on issues like religious freedom, secular education (teaching religion in public schools is strictly forbidden, though tolerated in privately-owned schools), and the separation of Church and State.

In fact, religious properties such as churches and temples officially belong to the State and are used by the Church on a "lease". These properties were seized by the State in the times of La Reforma (Constitution of 1857), with president Benito Juárez (fun trivia: some sources claim Mussolini was named after him) with the Ley de Desamortización de los Bienes de Manos Muertas ("Law of Repossession of Goods in Dead Hands"). This, along with other factors, lead to the Reform War.

In the 20th century, there was also a great conflict between the militant anti-Catholic government and the Catholic Church -supported by a significant part of the population, that was called the Cristeros War.

Nowadays, though church officials can freely express their opinions on politics, they are politely told to stick to their thing when the government perceives that they "cross the line".

I wonder how that makes the US look, between Canada and Mexico.
(EDIT: spelling)

[Samurai Rafiki]

This is good. At least ONE nation is moving forward in North America to rival Europe's falling out with organised religion.

I can't help but wonder if the overt religiosity of our southern friends (particularly of the Republican variety) is driving a backlash among younger Canadians. They look at the continuous war-mongering money-hoarding gun-toting Bible thumping of the American right-wing and it sickens them, so they end up rejecting the entire belief system.

That would be interesting, since I understand a similar backlash drove the rise of the American right-wing. They looked at what they perceived as an immoral, decadent, secular humanist mainstream society and decided to "take it back for God". In the process, they've dragged the political center to the right. There are plenty of differences between the two, but the fact it's a response to cultural stimuli is itself interesting.

Really, what happened was a little deeper. Nixon was a very fiscal conservative republican who really didn't give a damn one way or the other about religion. When he was impeached, then pardoned by his fiscal conservative replacement, the public was outraged. When Carter screwed up the economy again, the public was once again amenable to a republican administration, but not if it wasn't one they could trust. What better way to inspire trust than to put up Ronald Reagan and shroud his hyper-conservative economic plans under the umbrella of piety?

Basically the family friendly face of the Republican party is the religious right, but the money and the focus is still being generated by the fiscal conservatives in the back who still don't really care about religion one way or another. Look at John McCain and Sarah Palin: McCain is the old style republican who pays lip service to the religious nuts but really only cares about the money and the military, but to sell himself to those religious nuts, he had to bring on Sarah Palin. She didn't know shit about shit, but she was nutty as squirrel shit about God which is all he needed to bring the evangelicals on.

What's as disappointing as it is delicious though is how the false face the fiscal conservatives created to mask their money grubbing has abandoned them. In California, the fight for proposition 8 was bitter and expensive. What's more, demographic slices like African Americans were bombarded with ads for Prop 8, but virtually ignored by the McCain campaign who couldn't afford the ads, and it showed in voting trends. Think about it, the Obama campaign was funded by millions of small donations and had more money than it knew what to do with. The McCain campaign was comparatively destitute, but millions of dollars from voters went to fighting gay marriage (a religious decision) rather than donating to influence the presidency (a fiscal decision).

If the Republican party wants to regain power anytime soon, they're going to have to drop the evangelicals the same way the evangelicals dropped them. The religious right has pitched a fight about gay marriage that they will eventually lose, and they're going to keep dragging whatever party is tied to them down until they're dropped. So it's unfortunate that the homosexual community has to put up with the bullshit for the next few years, but the US will be better for it.

[Serafina]

Of the atheists I've met, the primary thing that drove them away from organized religion was how un-christian most Christians are.

True.

But only is we replace "christian" with "morality" and "values".
All the atheists i know (myself included) do not believe in any god/mystical power/spirituality because everything has to be aligned to this god/mystical power/spirituality when searching for a question.
Instead of just asking "what would be the best solution" and going with it, if you are a christian/member of any other religion you have to ask "what would be the best solution that fits our beliefs?".

About the "spirituality" thing: Of course i think about "what will happen when i die? Wouldnt an afterlife be a nice thing?"
Of course it would! But is there ANY reason to belive in it? Or rahter align my whole life to it?
This is also true for other questions.

Asking such questions is part of any human being - everyone is thinking aboutfate, death and similar concepts from time to time.
But this does NOT mean that those people need any kind of religion to answer those questions. Most of them can be answered with science, and the rest is something everyone has to find out for himself ("purpose in life" and similar stuff).

Religions are based on "we can give you answers!". The more you do NOT know, the more answers they can deliver.
Given that there are few unanswered questions today, they are trying to raise new questions!
Questions everyone has to think about for himself, where there is no universal answer are the best, because science can not deliver those answers. Thus, people HAVE to turn to religion.
However, science can give ADVICE - something religions rarely do (saying "thou must do X" is not advice).
You can answer ALL "spiritual" questions with science - but those answers are only true for yourself.
But its way better to find those answers with a scientific mindset, modern morality and knowledge than simply being told what to do - they will be more accurate and suit your life better.

[Darth Wong]

If the Republican party wants to regain power anytime soon, they're going to have to drop the evangelicals the same way the evangelicals dropped them. The religious right has pitched a fight about gay marriage that they will eventually lose, and they're going to keep dragging whatever party is tied to them down until they're dropped. So it's unfortunate that the homosexual community has to put up with the bullshit for the next few years, but the US will be better for it.

The problem is that the evangelical community might very well be as much as half of the US population, if those Gallup polls are anything to go by.

As a block, they could still theoretically control who wins the presidency, but they are internally divided. Many of them will always vote based on abortion and homosexuality, but there seem to be a lot of them who still hew to the old Jimmy Carter style of evangelism, which is much more heavily focused on poverty than what happens in peoples' bedrooms.

Frankly, while I'd like to see evangelism disappear, I'd be quite happy if it simply reverted from Pat Robertson to Jimmy Carter.

[Wicked Pilot]

I can't help but wonder if the overt religiosity of our southern friends (particularly of the Republican variety) is driving a backlash among younger Canadians. They look at the continuous war-mongering money-hoarding gun-toting Bible thumping of the American right-wing and it sickens them, so they end up rejecting the entire belief system.

I sure hope not. That's a very weak and unstable rational for atheism. Sure it may take you from Christianity, but it just as easily leads to Islam, New Age, some other form of Christianity, or some other bullshit. I'd prefer people drop religion because they gave long and in depth thought as to what exactly is supported by evidence and consistent with reality, after which Christianity and religion in general could no longer be taken seriously. Not that I don't like backlash, but it in of itself doesn't make one a skeptic or a critical thinker.

I really doubt that's the case anyway. Decreasing rates of Christianity and increasing rates of atheism has been the trend in the West for decades now, it was going to happen in Canada regardless of what the US did. Hell even the US has doubled it's number of atheist in the last ten years, and could have a Christian minority within 20 years. Whatever roll Bush and his Bush'ians had was probably negligible.

[Samurai Rafiki]

If the Republican party wants to regain power anytime soon, they're going to have to drop the evangelicals the same way the evangelicals dropped them. The religious right has pitched a fight about gay marriage that they will eventually lose, and they're going to keep dragging whatever party is tied to them down until they're dropped. So it's unfortunate that the homosexual community has to put up with the bullshit for the next few years, but the US will be better for it.

The problem is that the evangelical community might very well be as much as half of the US population, if those Gallup polls are anything to go by.

As a block, they could still theoretically control who wins the presidency, but they are internally divided. Many of them will always vote based on abortion and homosexuality, but there seem to be a lot of them who still hew to the old Jimmy Carter style of evangelism, which is much more heavily focused on poverty than what happens in peoples' bedrooms.

The Evangelical community claims to be an overwhelming slice of the population, but there are fewer hardliners and more sheep than the super-churches would like to admit. People like the air of righteousness that goes along with Christianity but on matters of public policy, self interest holds sway over Pat Robertson.

It's also important to remember the factions among Christianity; Evangelicals are only a noisy slice of it and however they claim, they don't speak for the rest of them. Catholics are a great example; the pope's positions aren't that far out of line with the Evangelicals, but Catholics are a largely liberal voting block. Nevermind fornication and use of contraceptives; the wildest college parties I've ever been to were at Gonzaga, a Catholic school. Church attendance is significantly higher among African Americans, but they're almost uniformly liberal.

It's relevant that these ostensibly religious groups are in disagreement with the Evangelicals because the Evangelicals are the ones pushing not only theism, but a shadow theocracy in America. Before atheism and reason can gain a significant foothold among your backwards southern neighbors, secularism has to win. it's the gateway to all sorts of shockingly reasonable reforms; most importantly accurate history books in schools with unswung facts to combat the indoctrination going on at home. Give us a few generations and Evangelical -> liberal christian -> Deist -> Agnostic -> Atheist.

Frankly, while I'd like to see evangelism disappear, I'd be quite happy if it simply reverted from Pat Robertson to Jimmy Carter.

Be careful what you wish for. Jimmy Carter's Evangelism may be the lion you can live with, but it's also much more appealing to the center. We yanks may end up with more livable lions than are managable. "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner."

I really doubt that's the case anyway. Decreasing rates of Christianity and increasing rates of atheism has been the trend in the West for decades now, it was going to happen in Canada regardless of what the US did. Hell even the US has doubled it's number of atheist in the last ten years, and could have a Christian minority within 20 years. Whatever roll Bush and his Bush'ians had was probably negligible.

Bush was undone by his collossal failure with economic and foriegn policy, not by social policy where he was still quite strong and tremendously dangerous. The overwhelming public opinion is still against gay marriage, stem cell research, and sex ed. The only reason we're just beginning to wise up to finding clean energy solutions is because gas was $5 a gallon a few months ago, changing the argument from "tree-hugger democrat bitching" to "taxpayers shafted by oil companies, Bush getting the reach-around".

[Akkleptos]

Man, ASULaoTzu! I wonder if we killed this thread. It seemed interesting enough to have sparked lots of productive posts.

I, for one, expected some more interesting comparisons between the US's influence of religious lobbies and leaders-of-opinion, and their Canadian and Mexican counterparts.

[Samurai Rafiki]

lol, it's not dead unless you can't think of something else to add. Want to talk about the influence of religious lobbies? They're absurdly common in the US. A lot of times the religious lobby could be the shadow of an otherwise secular lobby, like the National Organization for Women, which is a secular retirement home for angry feminists. On the other hand there's the Concerned Women for America, a bunch of bitching, bible-thumping soccer moms.

Pardon my ignorance, but I've been told that religion is much less prevalent in politics outside the US. Is that true, or are there Pat Robertson clones in every country? How seriously are they taken, and do they say shit as stupid as he does?

I thought Robertson's career would have been over when he linked the 9/11 attacks to homosexuality. I thought that he would be self-sacrificing enough and engage in the patriotism he claims by not trying to frame this as a religious war and completely validate what Osama Bin Laden has been saying. The fact that he insists on making America the Christian target for Muslims to pit themselves against is the epitome of stupidity and self-obsession.

[Akkleptos]

Pardon my ignorance, but I've been told that religion is much less prevalent in politics outside the US. Is that true, or are there Pat Robertson clones in every country? How seriously are they taken, and do they say shit as stupid as he does?

It is. There are always zealots, but in most civilised countries religious meddling is next to nothing compared to what it is in the US, AFAIK, even in countries that have political parties called or "Democristian". By the way, any kind of mention of religion in a political campaig is prohibited by law and parties resorting to such tactis are heavily fined. Why the US politics are so interrelated with religion and religious groups is a mystery to me, with the US having been founded originally as a secular republic, by secular, literate, well-educated, forwards-thinking people.

I thought Robertson's career would have been over when he linked the 9/11 attacks to homosexuality. I thought that he would be self-sacrificing enough and engage in the patriotism he claims by not trying to frame this as a religious war and completely validate what Osama Bin Laden has been saying. The fact that he insists on making America the Christian target for Muslims to pit themselves against is the epitome of stupidity and self-obsession.

Yeah, that kind of position is ridiculous. Some would say, however, that the thing is not a mere religious confrontation between Christiandom and Islam, but more of a clash of civilisations, a conflict between opposite cosmovisions. In that sense, we could talk of a real conflict between the democratic, industrialised and mostly secular West and the religious, mystic Islamic world.

[Akkleptos]

Pardon my ignorance, but I've been told that religion is much less prevalent in politics outside the US. Is that true, or are there Pat Robertson clones in every country? How seriously are they taken, and do they say shit as stupid as he does?

It is. There are always zealots, but in most civilised countries religious meddling is next to nothing compared to what it is in the US, AFAIK, even in countries that have political parties called or "Democristian". By the way, any kind of mention of religion in a political campaign is prohibited by law in Mexico and parties resorting to such tactis are heavily fined. Why the US politics are so interrelated with religion and religious groups is a mystery to me, with the US having been founded originally as a secular republic, by secular, literate, well-educated, forwards-thinking people.

I thought Robertson's career would have been over when he linked the 9/11 attacks to homosexuality. I thought that he would be self-sacrificing enough and engage in the patriotism he claims by not trying to frame this as a religious war and completely validate what Osama Bin Laden has been saying. The fact that he insists on making America the Christian target for Muslims to pit themselves against is the epitome of stupidity and self-obsession.

Yeah, that kind of position is ridiculous. Some would say, however, that the thing is not a mere religious confrontation between Christiandom and Islam, but more of a clash of civilisations, a conflict between opposite cosmovisions. In that sense, we could talk of a real conflict between the democratic, industrialised and mostly secular West and the religious, mystic Islamic world.

EDIT: Messed-up quotes