VICTORY!?

[Mr Bean]

I am now happy to say I have created my first Deist from a Creatonist
Or have I?

Yes Deists, those charming fellows who still belive in a higher power but that orginzed religion is a load of bunk so are generaly much nicer people

Through careful little thought games where I would ask him tough moral questions or science ones I cracked his wall of ignorance and bored on through till he was acutal thinking and started bringing up fact after fact about evolution and smashing every creatonist straw-man and logic fallacy he was drilled in until he finaly broke, There was a long pause after I answeared his claim concering the classic second law of thermodyamics

Deceding to gamble abit I went of track and started bringing up biblical hate quotes and other incosisitance, steadly wearing away at the foundation of his beilef system over half an hour until he finaly cracked and gave me another long pause

Taking my second gamble of the night I pressed ahead and asked did he think the Founding Fathers(Who he holds great stock with) where devote Christians
Ahh but they were not I said
What? He said sounding uncertian and I knew I had him
Thomas Jefferson once said the greatist harm ever inflicted on mankind was orginzed religion
I could see the wheels in his head turning, He asked me then what did Jefferson then?

Jefferson was a Deist I told him
A what he asked?
Well answear me this, Can you tell me how many lanauges the bible has been translated through?
One or two he said sounding uncertian agian
Try five to eight I said, And do you think it stayed the same all that time
He paused... I almost could feel his thinking shifting
No he said

And that I said, is what the Deist recongize, The Higher Power, but anything else is mearly the addings of man and not worth attention(Not exactly true but close enough for my purposes at that time)

Then he asked the question I had hope for
So Jefferson still belived in God, but he was still a Desit?
Yes I said, As a matter of fact all of the Founding Fathers where I told him

He fell silent agian
The pause this time was quite long, by my internal counting roughly two mintues passed before he final spoke agian and asked me
"Can I be a Deist and still be a Good Christian?
I replyed to him, "Christian, Deist, Its just a title, in the end is the only thing that matters what you belive?"
At that he noded and feel silent
Knowing I had probably pushed to far I changed the subject then and brought up the Gengis Khan story about him having over 4k Kids because he would have his way with women of every village he conquered, he laughed at the right parts but I know he was not paying attention

Now then folks a question to you, Do you think I pulled it off? Will he lapse back into Creationist non-thinking of emerge abit smarter and prehaps leave behind Christianity entirely?

[Enforcer Talen]

depends on the next few days. a nice quiet indoctrination session at church, he'll forget all about it. a nice quiet chat with wong, he'll go atheistic.

[Wicked Pilot]

You can lead a creationist to the pool of reason, but you cannot force them to think. It appears this person has had the door of reason opened for them, let's see if they'll cross the threshold.

[Exonerate]

Hopefully, it will at least leave him a more moderate Christian...
At least this guy is making an effort to think.

[Perinquus]

I wonder just how strong his convictions were to start with. I have used reason on people who called themselves Christians, but never were very religious, put much thought into it, or went to church regularly, and I have seen the light of reason go on in their eyes after hearing the skeptics' arguments.

However...

When I have tried this on people who are stronger in their faith, I have seen them justify, rationalize, and dodge like champions. For example, I once confronted my Catholic stepmother, who had just finished telling me that I was in danger of hell for being an out and out unbeliever, that she had to believe, as a Christian, that I was not only destined for hell, but that I deserved to go there. (I picked this particular argument up after reading Mike's website BTW.) She clearly did not expect this argument, and said that she probably wouldn't say that exactly. I replied that she must think so, if she believes her God to be a just God. The argument, as I'm, sure you can all anticipate, goes like this: if God is just, and God has ordained that people deserve to be tortured eternally for not believing in him, then you must believe that it is just for unbelievers to be condemned to this punishment. You must believe that the unbeliever deserves to suffer fiery, skin-blackening, flesh-roasting agony for all eternity. No matter that you may know the individual personally, and may even feel he's a pretty good guy, if he's an unbeliever, he must deserve this. God, after all, cannot do anything unjust.

Most believing Christians will simply not face up to this ethical dilemma. My stepmother was no exception. After laying this argument out, I asked her point blank: "do you believe that God is just?"

"Well," she replied. "I don't think you can just put it that simply."

"Come on," I said, "this is a simple yes or no question. Is God just?"

"But God has reasons for doing things people don't understand..."

And so it went. I repeated the question about five times. She would not give me a straight answer. She probably believes all the rationalizing she was doing, but it boils down to the fact that she could see the corner I was backing her into, and she damn well wasn't going to let herself be backed into it, no matter how untenable her position actually was.

This is a common thing with Christians. I could describe easily half a dozen other examples just like this. You can use the most irrefutable logic, but they just will not give you straight answers when you ask them such questions.

[neoolong]

It's the old "well I can't explain it so it must be God's mysterious ways, instead of him not existing or being a prick."

[Exonerate]

I wonder just how strong his convictions were to start with. I have used reason on people who called themselves Christians, but never wee very religious, put much thought into it, or went to church regularly, and I have seen the light of reason go on in thier eyes after hearing the skeptics' arguments.

However...

When I have tried this on people who are stronger in their faith, I have seen them justify, rationalize, and dodge like champions. For example, I once confronted my Catholic stepmother, who had just finished telling me that I was in danger of hell for being an out and out unbeliever, that she had to believe, as a Christian, that I was not only destined for hell, but that I deserved to go there. (I picked this particular argument up after reading Mike's website BTW.) She clearly did not expect this argument, and said that she probably wouldn't say that exactly. I replied that she must think so, if she believes her God to be a just God. The argument, as I'm, sure you can all anticipate, goes like this: if God is just, and God has ordained that people deserve to be tortured eternally for not believing in him, then you must believe that it is just for unbelievers to be condemned to this punishment. You must believe that the unbeliever deserves to suffer fiery, sking-blackening, flesh-roasting agony for all eternity. No matter that you may know the individual personally, and may even feel he's a pretty good guy, if he's an unbeliever, he must deserve this. God, after all, cannot do anything unjust.

Most believing Christians will simply not face up to this ethical dilemma. My stepmother was not exception. After laying this argument out, I asked her point blank: "do you believe that God is just?"

"Well," she replied. "I don't think you can just put it that simply."

"Come on," I said, "this is a simple yes or no question. Is God just?"

"But God has reasons for doing things people don't understand..."

And so it went. I repeted the question about five times. She would not give me a straight answer. She probably believes all the rationalizing she was doing, but it boils down to the fact that she could see the corner I was backing her into, and she damn well wasn't going to let herself be backed into it, no matter how untenable her position actually was.

This is a common thing with Christians. I could describe easily half a dozen other examples just like this. You can use the most irrefutable logic, but they just will not give you straight answers when you ask them such questions.

That is so true... Once I asked somebody if they believed God was right in drowning all those people with the flood, including all those infants and innocent people. Their answer was "If God did it, it must be just."

I was banging my head on the keyboard after that...

[irishmick79]

I don't know....you're close.

It's like what Morpheus said in the Matrix, "I can only show you the door, it's up to you to walk through."

[The Dark]

I think overall it's a neutral thing, from a theological standpoint...from one heresy to another .

Curiosity, though: what are the five to eight languages? In my Prophetic Thought class, we use the Stuttgart Hebrew, which is virtually identical to the Scrolls at Qumran. Given the Stuttgart was used to write the NRSV, that would be one language translated through.

[Frank Hipper]

If he's intent on maintaining his standing as a Christian, tell him to try out the United Methodists. At least they're common sensical in their teachings. Ask a Methodist what they think about the Rapture.

[Lagmonster]

For example, I once confronted my Catholic stepmother, who had just finished telling me that I was in danger of hell for being an out and out unbeliever, that she had to believe, as a Christian, that I was not only destined for hell, but that I deserved to go there.

That is so true... Once I asked somebody if they believed God was right in drowning all those people with the flood, including all those infants and innocent people. Their answer was "If God did it, it must be just."

I get this all the time. I have a beautiful home in a park area near the river in the north of Ottawa, but I have the wonderful (read: stupid) luck to live no more than a short hop from both a big Bible Study group AND the local JW Kingdom Hall Of Zombification. And some of the people I run into just when going out to get my mail are so fervent that you would almost want to instinctively swat them with a broom. One of them was, last summer, showing off his new "Jesus Saves" *tattoo*. How the hell, I wondered, do you talk sense to a guy who writes his fanaticism on his body in big permanent lettering???

The answer is, as an Old Dude (tm) and veteran of the Creationist/Rationalist trenches, that you can't. And eventually you learn that one of your most satisfying, if not wholly effective, tools is prodigious use of the upraised middle finger.