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[-1 0 0 0 ]
[ 0 1 0 0 ]
[ 0 0 1 0 ]
[ 0 0 0 1 ],
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[ 0 0 1 0 ] [ 0 0 0 1 ]
S = [ 0 0 0 1 ] [ 0 0 1 0 ]
[ 1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 1 0 0 ]
[ 0 1 0 0 ], [ 1 0 0 0 ]
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
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[-1 0 0 0 ]
[ 0 1 0 0 ]
[ 0 0 1 0 ]
[ 0 0 0 1 ],
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[ 0 0 1 0 ] [ 0 0 0 1 ]
S = [ 0 0 0 1 ] [ 0 0 1 0 ]
[ 1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 1 0 0 ]
[ 0 1 0 0 ], [ 1 0 0 0 ]
Let's unwind this a bit. The full Lorentz group O(1,3) is isomorphic to ℤ₂²×SO⁺(1,3), and has four connected components individually isomorphic to the proper orthochronous Lorentz group SO⁺(1,3) ≅ PSL(2,ℂ), the projective Möbius group, which is in turn double-covered by the simply connected SL(2,ℂ). Something is a bit fishy here--we're not getting a double-cover for O(1,3), which we need for half-integer spin, out of the spin group, but rather the pin group.Surlethe wrote:I was thinking this morning about the Feynman-Stuckelberg interpretation of antiparticles as particles moving backward in time, and it occurred to me that time reversal (reflection across the xyz-space), given by ... preserves the Minkowski norm, so it's a member of the general Lorentz group. So you should be able to produce the interpretation by transforming the Dirac equation according to that matrix. My problem is, how do you figure the spinor transformation associated with this Lorentz transformation?
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In the Dirac basis, γ^1 and γ^3 are
[ 0 0 0 1 ] [ 0 0 1 0 ]
[ 0 0 1 0 ] [ 0 0 0 -1 ]
[ 0 -1 0 0 ] , [ -1 0 0 0 ]
[ -1 0 0 0 ] [ 0 1 0 0 ]
Why do we need a double-cover for O(1,3) to get half-integer spin? And what's the pin group?Kuroneko wrote:Let's unwind this a bit. The full Lorentz group O(1,3) is isomorphic to ℤ₂²×SO⁺(1,3), and has four connected components individually isomorphic to the proper orthochronous Lorentz group SO⁺(1,3) ≅ PSL(2,ℂ), the projective Möbius group, which is in turn double-covered by the simply connected SL(2,ℂ). Something is a bit fishy here--we're not getting a double-cover for O(1,3), which we need for half-integer spin, out of the spin group, but rather the pin group.
Not following this step. Two questions. First, under xμ ↦ x'μ = (x0,-x), we should have ∂μ ↦ ∂'μ by ∂0 = ∂0, ∂μ = - ∂μ, which changes the form of the equation, right? Or is the new coordinate system going to take derivatives by the new coordinates? Second, why γ0 and not γ1, γ2, or γ3?Look at parity first: xμ ↦ x'μ = (x0,-x).The Dirac equation is
[1] 0 = (p̸-m)ψ = (iγμ∂μ - m)ψ.
Hence γ0(p̸-m)ψ = (iγμ∂'μ-m)γ0ψ = 0.
For clarity, denote the "new" time τ = -t. Then ∂τ = [∂t/∂τ]∂t = -∂t. Put ψ'(τ,x) = ψ'(-t,x) = Tψ(t,x). Then the Schrödinger equation in the new coordinates is i∂τψ'(τ,x) = Hψ'(τ,x), which leads to ...Exercise: Following the same strategy as as for the parity operator, let ψ'(-t,x) = Tψ(t,x), and show that if [T,H] = 0, then keeping the same form of the Schrödinger equation forces T-1(-i)T = i. (The same conclusion as above, with less handwaving.)
Hmm... my statement was too ambiguous. I did not mean that we need to double-cover of O(1,3) in particular to get half-integer spin, but that (i) double-covers are the reason for half-integer spins, in the sense described below, and (ii) Spin(1,3) ≅ SL(2,ℂ) is doing this to SO(1,3) rather than O(1,3). Those two statements ran together somehow and produced something rather misleading.Surlethe wrote:Why do we need a double-cover for O(1,3) to get half-integer spin?
The group double-covering O(1,3) in the same way that Spin(1,3) double-covers SO(1,3) that admits a Clifford algebra representation (actually, there are two). The point is that your assumption that a general Lorentz transformation is representable with Spin(1,3) is false; only for the proper Lorentz transformations SO(1,3) is this the case. Since time reversal is an improper Lorentz transformation, something needs to give. And give it does--the time reversal operator is not even linear, although it's close.Surlethe wrote:And what's the pin group?
∂'0 = ∂0 and ∂'μ = -∂μ, yes. What we want is to have a completely identical Dirac equation with primed coordinates over some transformed state, but what we get upon substitution is the wrong sign of the spatial components of the momentum term. So we need to fix this somehow, and multiplying by γ0 from the left does the trick.Surlethe wrote:Not following this step. Two questions. First, under xμ ↦ x'μ = (x0,-x), we should have ∂μ ↦ ∂'μ by ∂0 = ∂0, ∂μ = - ∂μ, which changes the form of the equation, right? Or is the new coordinate system going to take derivatives by the new coordinates?
Notice that we first multiplied through by it from the left, and then switched the order to the right. In doing so, γ0γ0 trivially doesn't change sign, but γ0γi = -γiγ0. Flipping the sign of only the spatial parts of p̸ is exactly what we want, and the result is (iγμ∂'μ-m)(γ0ψ) = 0. This is exactly the Dirac equation with the transformed state (γ0ψ), from which we conclude that ψ'(x') = γ0ψ(x)Surlethe wrote:Second, why γ0 and not γ1, γ2, or γ3?
Exactly right.Surlethe wrote:For clarity, denote the "new" time τ = -t. Then ∂τ = [∂t/∂τ]∂t = -∂t. Put ψ'(τ,x) = ψ'(-t,x) = Tψ(t,x). Then the Schrödinger equation in the new coordinates is i∂τψ'(τ,x) = Hψ'(τ,x), which leads to ...
i∂τTψ(t,x) = HTψ(t,x)
-i∂tTψ(t,x) = HTψ(t,x)
That doesn't follow. Don't assume that T is linear. Well, you did prove that if T were linear, then either it's not invertible or H = 0 (not T = 0), so in a sense you proved that it can't be linear, but the exercise's conclusion is stronger.Surlethe wrote:i∂tψ(t,x) = (-T-1HT)ψ(t,x),
Okay, so use the properties of the Dirac γs to build an ansatz. Does this hold generally? That is, since γiγj = -γjγi, any time you want to reverse any three of the four coordinates (e.g, (x0, x1, s2, x3) ↦ (-x0, -x1, s2, -x3)) you can get a transformation based on the appropriate γ (γ2 in the example).Kuroneko wrote:∂'0 = ∂0 and ∂'μ = -∂μ, yes. What we want is to have a completely identical Dirac equation with primed coordinates over some transformed state, but what we get upon substitution is the wrong sign of the spatial components of the momentum term. So we need to fix this somehow, and multiplying by γ0 from the left does the trick.
Uniqueness doesn't follow -- any matrix S that anticommutes with the last three γ and commutes with the first γ will do the trick.This is exactly the Dirac equation with the transformed state (γ0ψ), from which we conclude that ψ'(x') = γ0ψ(x)
I'm not sure where I'm using the assumption that T is linear. Is it in inverting it or in pulling it out from behind the ∂t?That doesn't follow. Don't assume that T is linear. Well, you did prove that if T were linear, then either it's not invertible or H = 0 (not T = 0), so in a sense you proved that it can't be linear, but the exercise's conclusion is stronger.
I don't think I'm following. Wouldn't this be exactly the interpretation of antiparticles?... in other words, every state of every system whatsoever would have a negative-energy twin. (This is actually mathematically impossible for free particles, and in general any reasonable particles under a potential bounded from below.)
The ansatz has a complex-conjugate operator, which we guessed from the structure of the Schrödinger equation: just flipping the time-coordinate gives us the wrong sign, but doing that and conjugating flips it back because of the i.Surlethe wrote:Okay, so use the properties of the Dirac γs to build an ansatz.
Yes, but note that the charge conjugation operator is C = γ2γ0 (I left the last γ by accident in the previous post).Surlethe wrote:Does this hold generally? That is, since γiγj = -γjγi, any time you want to reverse any three of the four coordinates (e.g, (x0, x1, s2, x3) ↦ (-x0, -x1, s2, -x3)) you can get a transformation based on the appropriate γ (γ2 in the example).
Simply commuting with γ0 gets rid of eight degrees of freedom, and similarly anticommuting with the rest halves the number each time. The space of such S's thus only one (complex) degree of freedom, and preserving the norm means we're left with just the phase.Surlethe wrote:Uniqueness doesn't follow -- any matrix S that anticommutes with the last three γ and commutes with the first γ will do the trick.
Neither; it's in pulling it across the i. You flipped the signs of both sides, which is fine, but then you also multiplied by T-1 from the left, and canceled it with the T on the left-hand side that was already there.Surlethe wrote:I'm not sure where I'm using the assumption that T is linear. Is it in inverting it or in pulling it out from behind the ∂t?
Oh, no. That this is the conclusion of Dirac equation in describing the electron is an indicator that the Dirac equation is fundamentally broken for such a person. Instead, what it describes is a field rather than a single particle, and the antiparticles do not have negative energy.Surlethe wrote:I don't think I'm following. Wouldn't this be exactly the interpretation of antiparticles?
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S γ -γ S
[ A 0 ][ 0 s ] = [ 0 As ] = [ 0 sB ] = [ 0 -s ][ A 0 ]
[ 0 -B ][ -s 0 ] = [ Bs 0 ] = [ sA 0 ] = [ s 0 ][ 0 -B ]
Alright, as I noted above, I left off a factor here. What I should have done is to have checked it beforehand. It's actually somewhat inconsistent in the literature--and one of the peculiarities is that for obscure reasons (probably because of the convenience of ψ̅ = ψ†γ0), C's effect on ψ is sometimes defined with a factor of γ0, which perversely enough requires C itself to have another γ0 just to cancel it the extra padding factor. So let's instead work through the Dirac equation directly without any such shenanigans.Kuroneko wrote:Exercise: Verify that γ2 corresponds to charge conjugation.
Ah-hah.Kuroneko wrote:Neither; it's in pulling it across the i. You flipped the signs of both sides, which is fine, but then you also multiplied by T-1 from the left, and canceled it with the T on the left-hand side that was already there.
Oh-hoh! That works, but methinks you're making it harder than it has to be. In particular, we don't need to know whether H is invertible for this problem.Surlethe wrote:Ah-hah.
Well, you answered this question already, but antilinearity, A(αx+βy) = α*Ax+β*Bx, actually occurs in another interesting way in quantum mechanics--a way that's usually hidden by furious handwaving.Surlethe wrote:What sort of operator on a scalar function would obey this?
You've probably learned the probabilistic interpretation of quantum mechanics, which involves interpreting a particle state at a particular time as a wavefunction ψ in in ℋ = L², the space of square-integrable functions, and that |ψ|² as a probability density of finding the particle at a given point. This is all a lie, albeit usually not a very important one.Kuroneko wrote:In quantum mechanics, our states live in Hilbert space H (or close to it, anyway), ... .