Debating a Teabagger: where to start?

[Crossroads Inc.]

On another forum a "debate" started up in a "Tea Party leader says racist things about NAACP" Thread.
One of the conservatives started giving a bunch of examples of bad thing Liberals said about Bush during the bush years, and made a standard "You did it too, you are just as bad post."

I proceeded to lay in pointing out just how different things are now form what happened during the Bush years.

OK here we go

I freely admit that the right in this country does contain some although certainly not many douchebag racists. Indeed I am trying point out that Obama apologists use the race card as a crutch, trying to make him a victim as if somehow other liberals/dems didn't face equally stiff/aggressive opposition, or that the hardest small percent of their constituency wasn't equally vicious

Sigh, are you really going to "go there" ?
Quote:
""I freely admit that the right in this country does contain some although certainly not many douchebag racists. ""
Some, SOME?
Can you name anyone who isn't? Or actually, name ONE person who said "Hey, comparing Obama to Hitler, why thats a bit unfair!" Name anyone who said that Glen Beck, Rush limbaugh, Ann Coulter, John Mc Cain, Sarah Palin, etc etc, comparing Obama/Liberals to Nazis and communists might have been 'unfair'

You have an entire TV station devoted to passing Republican Propaganda 24/7, and you say that there are "some" bad apples on the right?

And that give me that crap with "MSN is Just as bad!" because its hogwash. MSN isn't Liberal, they just actually, you know, check facts and report news.

Comparing people to nazi's is now par for the course in Washington... it was done extensively to Bush, and now its happening to Obama... he isn't special and it has nothing to do with his race.

when you are president, you get crazy people pissed off at you... here is another bush special one

Yeah... Except you seem to forget that during the bush years ANYone who did speak out against Bush was labeled a "Traitor" or unpatriotic, or a communist.

For seven years you people said "You have to support the president no mater what! Its a War! You can't speak bad during a war!"

Where is your blind support now? What happened to all that anger and indignation at anyone that dare speak bad about Bush? Can you name ONE person in congress who said that speaking out against Obama is "Unpatriotic" Can you name ONE media person who said that not supporting the president made you a terrorist sympathizer? Can you?

You all act as if calling a sitting president a moron/nazi/election stealer/baby killer/blood for oil etc is somehow not as bad as racist shit... so basically its ok to be a hateful lying douche about the president, but if somebody does that AND adds racism to it that they are somehow so much worse than the other side's bags of douche.

]Have you listened to anything? All you are doing is reposting your myopic "Your side does it TOO!" without addressing the fundamental points.

It isn't a matter of "some people on the right doing bad things" It is a systemic and pervasive attitude at EVERY level of the Republican party! This isn't about some random people saying Obama is a Nazi, or making racist undertones, its congressmen, governors, state congressional leaders, media people, highly "respected" people on the right!

When did Al Gore ever call Bush a Nazi? When did CNN spend days devoted to bald faced lies? When did any democrat in Congress ever publicly say Bush was a "Baby Killer"?

Are there liberals who are idiots? Of course, was there groups during the bush years who pointed out that Bush was an idiot who couldn't grasp the english language? Perhaps. But show me for one moment where any of that scares with the whole sale coordinated hate machine that is currently against Obama.

I await your reply with interest

I just got back a direct response (was rather surprised) and I find it rather predictable.

If the repub leadership doesn't conduct themselves in a racist way, and don't encourage others to do so, then there isn't more they can do... Sean Hannity comes on the air every day and says if you are at a tea party and you see someone with a racist sign you go challange them and get them thrown out... Rush and Levine attack him on policy, but within the bounds of being water carriers for the republicans... How is John McCain any more responsible for some racist douchebag in Iowa or Kansas than Harry Reid is responsible for Cindy Sheehan and Danny Glover...if you weren't offended when shit was said about bush but are now, then you are two faced, if what was said about him AND what is being said about obama by the fringe offends you, thats also too bad... both sides have douchebag elements

MSNBC is the trolling organization for the dems just as much as FOX does it for the repubs... Ed Schultz, Maddow, Keith (to a degree) and Chris Matthews are all Obama water carriers.

Yes people spoke out against the bush bashing... and people speak out against the obama bashing... again he is getting no special treatment

When exactly was John McCain not fucking civil to Obama... he made it a point to address him by his title Senator Obama and only under extreme pressure did he even go into Obama's personal relationships (which where only mentioned in passing for two seconds in one debate)

Calling republican's racist is just a crutch that liberals use to trick blacks et all to thinking that somehow the dems are the only ones worthy of votes... Republicans freed the slaves, republicans voted for the civil rights act, republicans support school choice to end the cycle of failure from public schools

Lots more of "You people do it too" as well as a lot of Strawmans in there.

I have an idea how to respond, but I want to be more, exacting. I am not out to change this guys mind, obviously, I simply wish to logically disprove every point he makes. Links, citations, evidence, etc. So any help from the more Debate experienced out there is appreciated

[Samuel]

So crossroads, channeling Sisyphus today?

Anyway, you need to get him to compare frequency, which I doubt he will do.

MSNBC is the trolling organization for the dems just as much as FOX does it for the repubs... Ed Schultz, Maddow, Keith (to a degree) and Chris Matthews are all Obama water carriers.

Unlike Fox they do it without lying. Pound this in. If you can get him to understand that FOX actually defended its right to lie and no other news organization has you might be able to crack through. I doubt it will work- he will probably say they were just caught or some other hogwash.

Calling republican's racist is just a crutch that liberals use to trick blacks et all to thinking that somehow the dems are the only ones worthy of votes...

And 90% of black voters agree. I think they might know something you don't.

Republicans freed the slaves,

I believe their modern day attitude towards slavery is deplorable. I think there was an incident in the last decade where a high up republican was implicated in slavery in guam.

Blacks did consistently vote for the party of Lincoln until the 30s. Aside from the freeing the slaves there was the fact democrats could be horribly racist- Woodrow Wilson for example. Black voters switched in the 30s when the Democrats decided to court the lower class and since most blacks were on the bottom...

republicans voted for the civil rights act,

1964 civil rights act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

Best I can find. A higher percentage of Republicans voted for it... but the Democrats opposition was almost exclusively from the south which now votes republican.

[Crossroads Inc.]

So crossroads, channeling Sisyphus today?

Like I said, its not about changing his mind, so much as logically proving his arguments false.
If I get him to basically repeat talking points without addressing my points at least twice more, I'll consider that a "Victory"

That said, thanks for the help, makes a good outline to set up a proper response,

[Crossroads Inc.]

New response:
My Stuff first, then his response down below:

Unlike Fox they do it without lying.
Has MSNBC ever gone to court to defended its right to lie ???
Fox news has been caught blatantly lying Again and again Mis representing news items and never correcting stories when they are called out.

Has MSNBC ever called a Democrat who was caught in a scandal a Republican? Can you think of a single instance where ANY other media network has made so many "mistakes" like that? Has any other network EVR "accidentally" called a Democrat a Republican or vice vsa?

You have this mistaken impression that media networks like MSNBC or CNN or NPR are some how "Liberal" mouthpieces. Again, you do nothing to disprove that fox is nothing but a Conservative mouthpiece, you simply point and saw "MSNBC does it too!"

Except they don't, ever. You can not compare the two. One tells "news" and the other repeats anything it is told without fact checking.

===

Funny about that. We "trick" blacks into voting for us? Really? Seeing how about 90% of black voters agree, well. I think they might know something you don't. We must be a doing a REALLY good job of "tricking" blacks into thinking Republicans are racists huh?

===

No, Abraham Lincoln "Freed" the slaves, a man who if entered modern politics would be considered a raving Liberal. Again Conservatives think that because "they" freed the slaves, it somehow makes them immune from any criticism for all time.

In truth their modern day attitude towards slavery is deplorable.

Blacks did consistently vote for the party of Lincoln until the 30s. Aside from the freeing the slaves there was the fact democrats could be horribly racist- Woodrow Wilson for example.

However past the thirties "Democrats" who were mostly white southern racists, gradually become Republicans, those that didn't are the "blue dog" democrats of today. Black voters switched in the 30s when the Democrats decided to court the lower class while Republicans courted the richest and well off.

Again, can you prove me wrong? When was the last time Republicans spoke of helping "the common man" when that man wasn't a rich person? Your philosophy since the 30's has been "I have mine, screw everyone else"

===

1964 civil rights act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

Again, times change A higher percentage of Republicans voted for it... but the Democrats opposition was almost exclusively from the south which now votes solid Republican.

Funny about that?

People like yourself are caught up in this world where attacking someone else is only ok, as long as they don't attack back, and when they do, you just stick your fingers into your ears and go LA LA LA!!!

To date, you have done nothing to Refute the assertions that FoxNews is a Right Wing propaganda mouth piece, that Republicans support and tolerate systemic and pervasive bigotry within their ranks. From Rush, to Ann, to Beck, Rand Paul, etc.

All you do is point and give watered down "examples" of Liberals doing things and say "You do it too! MSNBC! People calling Bush Hitler! Being Mean!"

yes yes yes... But as stated, the sheer amount of incidents on the right DWARF such incidents on the left, just try counting them up. Republicans for the past 30 years at EVERY level of their power have had cases of blatant and despicable bigotry. Against Blacks, Gays, Women, Arabs, and of course, everyone that isn't Christian and white.

You have not lifted one finger to defend the Right Wing in this country BlairWitch Your silence is louder then anything you have said to try and paint Progressives in a similar light.

Yes I can think of a media network that put out a hit piece... CBS... you know forged documents Keith, Maddow, Shultz and Matthews are tried and true libs, Keith doesn't even both with the pretense of speaking to conservatives... at least O'Reilly and Hannity have Jaun Williams or another lib on their panel every single night (even if they beat them over the head)

Fox news is 100 percent a water carrier for the republican party... that, talk radio and the drudge report are the primary conservative outlets (and a few of the newspapers like the NY post and the wall street journal)

[/b]the libs have MSNBC, CBS, Hollywood, and a lot of the major newspapers (NY times, Washington post etc)... [/b]

Outside of excommunicating people (which neither party does) what is the leadership supposed to do if there are douchebags out there. Our leadership, which would fall under a number of people Jindal, Pawlenty, McCain, Romeny etc are not racists... they are pretty much establishment republicans...these are the people in positions of authority, and they are not racists

90 percent of blacks vote dem and what the hell have the dems done for them in last 30 years... just keep pushing them into the failing public schools, do nothing about urban decay (escpecially at the local levels since dems control a lot of big cities), and keep protraying a myth that they are victims... and refuse (except in very rare cases) to have an HONEST discussion about race... about the social fabric of black culture, about the tremendous number of absentee fathers, about the prevalence of gangs and drugs in the black community, holding them back, and retarding their rightful progress towards a middle class american dream

people in this thread quoted kanye west about racism... a man who talks about women as if they are objects, who stereotypes races, a man who tosses around the word "nigger" like it means nothing... where are the dems comming out saying he and certain other celebrity african americans are poor role models, and that people like Colin Powel and Barack Obama need to be sought out, away from the ghetto culture and hip hop culture.

If a republican even says blacks are generally not victims in this country, he is denounced a racist... and the name calling precludes any meaningful dialogue on the subject... I don't condone racism, I don't have a racist instinct in my body, but I am not so naive to think that I can influence everyone, nor so pigheaded to assume in belonging to a party with tens of millions of members from all walks of life with only a few things in common (an ny republican and a fl ky republican are very very different people) that there aren't going to be people who I disagree with, even significantly, even to the point where I think they are bad people

Where can I find the story which basically said, while the documents were forged, what they said about bush was TRUE.

Also Im I correct assuming that once again he hasn't done anything to refute the assertion of FoxNews being a mouth piece, other then saying We have our own?

[Gerald Tarrant]

Is his stuff the embedded quote box? If not you need to parse out which is yours and which is his a little bit better.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Sorry about that, for some reason the forum doesn't copy quotes, If you quote someone who quoted you, YOUR quotes vanish, so I've had to re-edit things.

[Samuel]

Yes I can think of a media network that put out a hit piece... CBS... you know forged documents Keith, Maddow, Shultz and Matthews are tried and true libs

Ah yes, the equivalence. For starters Dan Rather was fired. Unless he means another incident.

Keith doesn't even both with the pretense of speaking to conservatives

So? If your news has to be packaged for you to be acceptable, there is something wrong with how you view the world.

90 percent of blacks vote dem and what the hell have the dems done for them in last 30 years...

Not be Republicans? Not systematically attempt to deprive them of the right to vote? Support social programs which appeals to the poor?

Outside of excommunicating people (which neither party does) what is the leadership supposed to do if there are douchebags out there.

Political parties can't declare that an individual isn't a member?

just keep pushing them into the failing public schools,

Yes, the teachers union has a hold on the democrats. Republicans have been able to reform education from the top down (no child left behind). It doesn't seem to have done much.

do nothing about urban decay

You mean the social programs I mentioned that the Democrats love?

and keep protraying a myth that they are victims... and refuse (except in very rare cases) to have an HONEST discussion about race... about the social fabric of black culture, about the tremendous number of absentee fathers, about the prevalence of gangs and drugs in the black community, holding them back, and retarding their rightful progress towards a middle class american dream

That is because of the prevalence of crime for the lower class. To solve that you'd need to stop putting away so many people in prison for drug crimes (which the republicans are against), increase changes of rehabilitation instead of focusing on punishment (which the republicans are against) and provide a social safety net in order to offer alternatives to gangs (which the republicans are against).

You can blame the victim mentality (it certainly isn't helping), but if you want to change things, you need to remove the features that help keep the mentality in place.

what they said about bush was TRUE.

Depends what you want. he did serve in the Texas Air National Guard. Unless you mean getting our country involved in a war under false pretenses, torturing prisoners- you know irrelevant stuff.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Well the situation has become moot, a few other posters laid into this guy with the skill and viscousness of Wong and I've sat back and watched.

The guy in question has basically responded with more and more elaborate ways of saying "Your side does it to!" without addressing any real points.

After being called out with a point by point run down of Racists in virtually every level of the Far Right along with being called out on the fact that the GOP is single handedly responsible for screwing over working America. The person proceeded to write an immense two page response which boiled down to

"Your side is just as bad"

Basically its just not worth it anymore, not even for fun