Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Elfdart »

New Scientist
Morph-osaurs: How shape-shifting dinosaurs deceived us

* 28 July 2010 by Graham Lawton
* Magazine issue 2771. Subscribe and save
* For similar stories, visit the Dinosaurs Topic Guide

DINOSAURS were shape-shifters. Their skulls underwent extreme changes throughout their lives, growing larger, sprouting horns then reabsorbing them, and changing shape so radically that different stages look to us like different species.

This discovery comes from a study of the iconic dinosaur triceratops and its close relative torosaurus. Their skulls are markedly different but are actually from the very same species, argue John Scannella and Jack Horner at the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman, Montana.

Triceratops had three facial horns and a short, thick neck-frill with a saw-toothed edge. Torosaurus also had three horns, though at different angles, and a much longer, thinner, smooth-edged frill with two large holes in it. So it's not surprising that Othniel Marsh, who discovered both in the late 1800s, considered them to be separate species.

Now Scannella and Horner say that triceratops is merely the juvenile form of torosaurus. As the animal aged, its horns changed shape and orientation and its frill became longer, thinner and less jagged. Finally it became fenestrated, producing the classic torosaurus form (see diagram, right).

This extreme shape-shifting was possible because the bone tissue in the frill and horns stayed immature, spongy and riddled with blood vessels, never fully hardening into solid bone as happens in most animals during early adulthood. The only modern animal known to do anything similar is the cassowary, descended from the dinosaurs, which develops a large spongy crest when its skull is about 80 per cent fully grown.

Shape-shifting continued throughout these dinosaurs' lives, Scannella says. "Even in the most mature specimens that we've examined, there is evidence that the skull was still undergoing dramatic changes at the time of death."

Scannella and Horner examined 29 triceratops skulls and nine torosaurus skulls, mostly from the late-Cretaceous Hell Creek formation in Montana. The triceratops skulls were between 0.5 and 2 metres long. By counting growth lines in the bones, not unlike tree rings, they have shown clearly that the skulls come from animals of different ages, from juveniles to young adults. Torosaurus fossils are much rarer, 2 to 3 metres long and, crucially, only adult specimens have ever been found.

The duo say there is a clear transition from triceratops into torosaurus as the animals grow older. For example, the oldest specimens of triceratops show a marked thinning of the bone where torosaurus has holes, suggesting they are in the process of becoming fenestrated (Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, vol 30, p 1157).

The finding has implications for the supposed defensive function of the triceratops' frill. "If I was a triceratops I wouldn't want anything too damaging to happen to my frill, as it had numerous large blood vessels running over the surface," says Scannella. "I don't imagine holding up a thin bony shield that can gush blood would be a very effective means of defence."

Instead it is likely that the headgear was a display to signal an individual's maturity to other members of the species. Differences between the sexes is another possibility but less likely, says Scannella.

It was already known that triceratops skulls changed throughout their development, but not that the final result was a torosaurus. Torosaurus will now be abolished as a species and specimens reassigned to Triceratops, says Horner.

Triceratops isn't the only shape-shifter. Last year, Horner and Mark Goodwin of the University of California, Berkeley, claimed something similar for another iconic Hell Creek dinosaur, the dome-headed pachycephalosaurus, perhaps best known for headbutting jeeps in Jurassic Park 2.

Two similar dinosaurs, classified as Dracorex and Stygimoloch, are also known from Hell Creek. Horner and Goodwin say that they are not separate species but juveniles of pachycephalosaurus (PLoS One, vol 4, p e7676). If so, this is an even more extreme case of shape-shifting than triceratops, with the animal growing horns and then re-absorbing them into its skull as it ages (see diagram).

Horner says this makes it unlikely that pachycephalosaurus engaged in headbutting as it, too, retained spongy, immature bone throughout adulthood. As with the frill of triceratops, its dome was probably used for display.

On top of that, a dinosaur called Nanotyrannus has been tentatively reclassified as a juvenile form of Tyrannosaurus rex.

Taken together, the "loss" of four species from the Hell Creek formation reveals that the dinosaurs that lived there up until 65 million years ago were not as diverse as previously thought. Triceratops and torosaurus have long been regarded as the last survivors of the horned dinosaurs, a large group that appeared in the Jurassic and reached its heyday about 80 million years ago. Now it seems that only one species made it through to the end of the Cretaceous. This could be evidence to support a disputed theory that dinosaur diversity was in decline long before an asteroid impact wiped them out.

Both Scannella and Horner say it is possible that other dinosaur species from Hell Creek will turn out to be juvenile forms, and add that the same thing is probably true of dinosaurs from other locations and times. "Juvenile dinosaurs were not just miniature versions of adults - they looked very different and could easily be mistaken for distinct species," says Scannella.

The idea that dinosaurs' skulls changed radically as they aged was first proposed in the 1970s, but it was difficult to test because dinosaur remains are usually so scarce and so it never gained wide acceptance.

Scannella and Horner were able to make a strong case because triceratops is not scarce. "It is hard to walk out into the Hell Creek formation and not stumble upon a triceratops weathering out of a hillside," says Scannella. In the past decade, 47 complete or partial skulls have been found there.

"The work is startling, not least because triceratops and torosaurus have been so heavily studied for over 100 years," says Mike Benton, a vertebrate palaeontologist at the University of Bristol, UK. "To suggest they are different growth stages of one form is a remarkable observation, and may well prove highly controversial, but the case is persuasive. It has always been difficult to distinguish the two."

Goodwin says the recent work is convincing and will mark a major shift in the field: palaeontologists must now factor in extreme changes in skull shape or risk misunderstanding evolutionary relationships and overestimating dinosaur diversity. Ignore physical development in dinosaur palaeontology "at your peril", he warns.
It goes without saying that Horner is a bullshitter masquerading as a scientist, but this one takes the cake and the ice cream, too.

If Triceratops is a juvenile Torosaurus, why is it larger? The largest Triceratops is just under 30 feet long while the largest Torosaur is around 25. Triceratops' frill (which is undoubtedly for sexual display and selection) is far more elaborate than that of Torosaurus. To get a good idea for how absurd this is, imagine a peacock that grows its elaborate and colorful feathers as a chick or half-grown bird, then loses them when he reaches maturity. The same goes for stags with antlers or rams with horns.

Does anyone at New Scientist have even a rudimentary understanding of the birds and the bees?
Image
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

It goes without saying that Horner is a bullshitter masquerading as a scientist, but this one takes the cake and the ice cream, too.
No. He is not. You are thinking of Bob Bakker. Jack Horner is probably one of the best vertebrate (specifically dinosaur) paleontologists we currently have. His argument that T-Rex was a scavenger is controversial, and may be wrong, but not entirely unfounded. Pachycephalosaurus being the adult form of two other "species" is widely accepted, but given the evidence at hand, this will face strong resistance, but his argument is also persuasive.

You just dont want to think that one of your favorite dinosaurs was a juvenile.
If Triceratops is a juvenile Torosaurus, why is it larger? The largest Triceratops is just under 30 feet long while the largest Torosaur is around 25.
First, there are a lot of ontogenic shifts in morphology for a lot of organisms. Second, just like people, some specimens are larger than others. There is variation in adult sizes that with the number of fossils we have, we would not pick up. Developmental characters (such as osteology) requires far fewer numbers to get good data because there is less variation present.
Does anyone at New Scientist have even a rudimentary understanding of the birds and the bees?
Does elfdart have a rudimentary understanding of biology?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Anguirus »

My paleontologist buddy just sent me the paper. He's not convinced. I'll read it and form my own thoughts, and post probably sometime tomorrow or the next day. Mind you, I'm not a paleontologist myself (and my buddy is a grad student like me).

EDIT: I will add (just starting to read the paper) that Triceratops was always known for a HIGHLY unusual cranial morphology for a chasmosaurine. One of the reasons my friend told me that he's skeptical, however, is because in his words the paper glosses over a Torosaurus species for which juveniles have been described. Will investigate this. If anyone wants the paper, PM me or post in this thread.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Eh, Alyrium, what's wrong with Bob Bakker?
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
User avatar
Akhlut
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2660
Joined: 2005-09-06 02:23pm
Location: The Burger King Bathroom

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Akhlut »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
It goes without saying that Horner is a bullshitter masquerading as a scientist, but this one takes the cake and the ice cream, too.
No. He is not. You are thinking of Bob Bakker.
Why is Bakker a bullshitter? I know he's a Christian minister and he's exaggerated at times, but I haven't heard anything that he's outright fabricated (though, admittedly, I've not dug too deep into his work).
SDNet: Unbelievable levels of pedantry that you can't find anywhere else on the Internet!
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Anguirus »

You just dont want to think that one of your favorite dinosaurs was a juvenile.
Meh. I feel worse for Toro fans, lol. Also, every media outlet did a sensationalistic version of this story. You should see the horror on my Facebook. Nearly every headline strongly implies that Triceratops has been dispensed with, as opposed to "A recent high profile paper suggests dispensing with Torosaurus.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Anguirus wrote:My paleontologist buddy just sent me the paper. He's not convinced. I'll read it and form my own thoughts, and post probably sometime tomorrow or the next day. Mind you, I'm not a paleontologist myself (and my buddy is a grad student like me).

EDIT: I will add (just starting to read the paper) that Triceratops was always known for a HIGHLY unusual cranial morphology for a chasmosaurine. One of the reasons my friend told me that he's skeptical, however, is because in his words the paper glosses over a Torosaurus species for which juveniles have been described. Will investigate this. If anyone wants the paper, PM me or post in this thread.

I would love the paper if you can send it. You know my email I believe. For some reason the current issue of vert paleo has not posted to the bioone archive
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Akhlut wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
It goes without saying that Horner is a bullshitter masquerading as a scientist, but this one takes the cake and the ice cream, too.
No. He is not. You are thinking of Bob Bakker.
Why is Bakker a bullshitter? I know he's a Christian minister and he's exaggerated at times, but I haven't heard anything that he's outright fabricated (though, admittedly, I've not dug too deep into his work).
He does not publish. At all. Ever. He has confined himself strictly to popular literature since I was born.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Elfdart »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
It goes without saying that Horner is a bullshitter masquerading as a scientist, but this one takes the cake and the ice cream, too.
No. He is not.


I. Can. punctuate. like. Comic. Store. Guy. too. :wanker:

You are thinking of Bob Bakker. Jack Horner is probably one of the best vertebrate (specifically dinosaur) paleontologists we currently have. His argument that T-Rex was a scavenger is controversial, and may be wrong, but not entirely unfounded.


Bakker may be a carnival barker, but he has never been so harebrained as to suggest that large species of land animal can survive exclusively or mostly by scavenging. It's bullshit pseudo-science and even after conclusive evidence that Tyrannosaurus rex hunted live prey was shown to him he just ignored it and kept on bullshitting. Horner even claimed that lions don't really hunt, but scavenge for most of their meals.

Pachycephalosaurus being the adult form of two other "species" is widely accepted, but given the evidence at hand, this will face strong resistance, but his argument is also persuasive.
The other species are smaller and proportionally they are similar. Torosaurus is smaller than Triceratops, yet the former is supposed to be the mature form of the latter.
You just dont want to think that one of your favorite dinosaurs was a juvenile.
I don't have a favorite dinosaur, numbnuts. Besides, Torosaurus would be sunk into Triceratops if this was accurate.

First, there are a lot of ontogenic shifts in morphology for a lot of organisms. Second, just like people, some specimens are larger than others. There is variation in adult sizes that with the number of fossils we have, we would not pick up. Developmental characters (such as osteology) requires far fewer numbers to get good data because there is less variation present.
Name another large vertebrate where the sub-adult shrinks by one-sixth in length while the head increases by one-third when it reaches maturity.
Image
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I. Can. punctuate. like. Comic. Store. Guy. too. :wanker:
Oh yes, in place of an argument, make fun of my personal idiosyncrasies. Wonderful debate tactic.
Bakker may be a carnival barker, but he has never been so harebrained as to suggest that large species of land animal can survive exclusively or mostly by scavenging.
Many large terrestrial carnivores do exactly that, moron. They steal kills from other predators. Hyenas make their living from it. Scale up the prey, scale up the size of the animal they can scavange. Hell, there were species of Allosaurus (the genus) that were island dwelling who survived off of what washed up on the damn beach.

Older T rex were not built for, and frankly could not survive explosive chases. If they trip they die. It is as simple as that. With their mass even at their low speeds if they fall over, they dont get back up and if they do, they get crippled, get infections, starve to death. We have good evidence for what happened to a particular allosaur who suffered this fate. When chasing prey, even the most agile predators trip. More than likely you have one of a few scenarios.

1) Young Rex are active hunters feeding on smaller prey, they undergo an ontogenic shift in feeding as they age to being a huge scavenger. The solitary version of a Hyena.

2) Young T Rex chases prey into the waiting neck-snapping jaws of mamma Rex

3) Young Rex actively hunt as before, but using her barrel ultra-endurance chest, binocular vision, and massive olfactory bulb, Mamma Rex (or Pappa Rex) tracks herds of prey when she is hunting, wearing them down over the long haul until an older sick individual is too weak to go on any further, and gets dispatched very fast. T Rex had a morphology optimized for this. A massive skull, and estimated thirty thousand PSI bite, and teeth like railroad spikes. Perfect for breaking a spinal column. Even the tiny tiny arms were very strong. The only functional use though is as a hook, used to couple the Rex's body the with struggling hadrosaur. It would need to do this, or the forces operating on their massive skull would stand a very good chance of breaking their neck or at least damaging their own spine or neck muscles. Leverage and torque are bitches. They are the reason you can snap a football player's neck with one hand while they are helmeted.

That is the only scenario under which a solitary adult T rex can hunt and not kill itself doing it.
Horner even claimed that lions don't really hunt, but scavenge for most of their meals.
They scavange for a large percentage of them, not sure if I would say most. However even healed tooth marks are not necessarily conclusive, as simple territorial aggression or defense of offspring could potentially account for that

As for your claim that his work is pseudoscience: No, his work gets published in peer reviewed journals, and good ones too. Engaging in pseudoscience he is not. Wrong he might be, but a pseudoscientist, no.
The other species are smaller and proportionally they are similar. Torosaurus is smaller than Triceratops, yet the former is supposed to be the mature form of the latter.
There are stranger things. I give you The Paradox Frog (Pseudis paradoxa)

Image

This is pretty much to scale.

You also completely ignored what I told you about size variation. Good work.
Name another large vertebrate where the sub-adult shrinks by one-sixth in length while the head increases by one-third when it reaches maturity.
I can give you a few thousand vertebrates that undergo freaky fully-body metamorphosis. I can give you fish that change sex. A length reduction is not overly spectacular, and again, standing size variation. We have a dew hundred fossils of a group of organisms that may be cryptospecies (sometimes you cant tell if something is actually a different species just from the skeletons) that in the final analysis across time had numbers in the billions to trillions. Just think of the size variation in modern humans. Think about kids who are significantly taller than their parents and let that sink in to your thick skull for a second.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Elfdart »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Oh yes, in place of an argument, make fun of my personal idiosyncrasies. Wonderful debate tactic.
Can't take it, can you?
Bakker may be a carnival barker, but he has never been so harebrained as to suggest that large species of land animal can survive exclusively or mostly by scavenging.
Many large terrestrial carnivores do exactly that, moron. They steal kills from other predators. Hyenas make their living from it.


Bullshit. Hans Kruuk proved decades ago that even the spotted hyena hunts for the vast majority of its meals, from 68% in the Serengeti to 93% in the Ngoronogoro Crater.
Scale up the prey, scale up the size of the animal they can scavange. Hell, there were species of Allosaurus (the genus) that were island dwelling who survived off of what washed up on the damn beach.
Evidence please.
<snip>
That proves the animals got most or all of their meals by scavenging, right?
Horner even claimed that lions don't really hunt, but scavenge for most of their meals.
They scavange for a large percentage of them, not sure if I would say most. However even healed tooth marks are not necessarily conclusive, as simple territorial aggression or defense of offspring could potentially account for that
Because a predator is worried that a herbivore is going to compete for hunting rights? Or was it worried about competing for mates? So much for territorial aggression. Defense of offspring? Right, because herbivores are famous for hunting and killing a predator's young. Why, just the other day I saw a gazelle on TV stalking a litter of leopard cubs.
:roll:

If a tyrannosaur can attack and bite a chunk out of the tail of a large duckbill, then it is certainly capable of killing the animal.
As for your claim that his work is pseudoscience: No, his work gets published in peer reviewed journals, and good ones too. Engaging in pseudoscience he is not. Wrong he might be, but a pseudoscientist, no.
Who gives a shit if it's published in peer-reviewed journals? So was Woo Suk Hwang's quackery.

The other species are smaller and proportionally they are similar. Torosaurus is smaller than Triceratops, yet the former is supposed to be the mature form of the latter.
There are stranger things. I give you The Paradox Frog (Pseudis paradoxa)

Image

This is pretty much to scale.
If only we were discussing amphibians -oh wait! We're not.

You also completely ignored what I told you about size variation. Good work.
I didn't ignore your handwaving; I just didn't let it distract me from the issue at hand.

Name another large vertebrate where the sub-adult shrinks by one-sixth in length while the head increases by one-third when it reaches maturity.
I can give you a few thousand vertebrates that undergo freaky fully-body metamorphosis. I can give you fish that change sex. A length reduction is not overly spectacular, and again, standing size variation. We have a dew hundred fossils of a group of organisms that may be cryptospecies (sometimes you cant tell if something is actually a different species just from the skeletons) that in the final analysis across time had numbers in the billions to trillions. Just think of the size variation in modern humans. Think about kids who are significantly taller than their parents and let that sink in to your thick skull for a second.

Just as I thought: you can't do it.

Concession accepted.

By the way jackass, citing the exception (kids who are taller than their parents) to the rule (kids being the same size as their parents or smaller) is pathetic. No human shrinks from six feet tall to five feet tall while his head increases by a third. Humans don't develop secondary sex characteristics as kids, only to lose them as they become adults unless they're afflicted with some rare disorder. In fact, no animal does such a thing because it's not an adaptation that would survive for long.
Image
User avatar
Akhlut
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2660
Joined: 2005-09-06 02:23pm
Location: The Burger King Bathroom

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Akhlut »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Many large terrestrial carnivores do exactly that, moron. They steal kills from other predators. Hyenas make their living from it.
Just a bit of a nitpick, but from what I've heard, hyenas are actually competent hunters and live more on their own hunts than on scavenging.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotted_Hyena (I know the wikipedia article itself is not necessarily good, but it does reference a journal article that I, now lacking access to things like JSTOR, cannot read to find out how accurate it may or may not be)
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/animal-g ... yena/3297/
Older T rex were not built for, and frankly could not survive explosive chases. If they trip they die. It is as simple as that. With their mass even at their low speeds if they fall over, they dont get back up and if they do, they get crippled, get infections, starve to death. We have good evidence for what happened to a particular allosaur who suffered this fate. When chasing prey, even the most agile predators trip. More than likely you have one of a few scenarios.
Isn't that true of a lot of their prey species as well, though? An anatotitan, being over 40 feet long and weighing as much or more than T. rex is pretty screwed if it trips, too, and since it is likely that a T. rex would be chasing a herd, it can go slower and wait for some prey to trip and break one of its legs and then kill the anatotitan.
Horner even claimed that lions don't really hunt, but scavenge for most of their meals.
They scavange for a large percentage of them, not sure if I would say most. However even healed tooth marks are not necessarily conclusive, as simple territorial aggression or defense of offspring could potentially account for that
Depends on the pride of lions and what else is around. If there are large numbers of hyenas in the area, male lions will tend to bully them away from their kills and the lions will survive off of scavenging hyena kills. Those in areas with fewer hyenas tend to go hunting more often. It is hard to generalize across the board for lions and their scavenging.
SDNet: Unbelievable levels of pedantry that you can't find anywhere else on the Internet!
User avatar
Oni Koneko Damien
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3852
Joined: 2004-03-10 07:23pm
Location: Yar Yar Hump Hump!
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Why is everyone so surprised about the claims of scavenging? Almost *any* large carnivore will, if given the choice, scavenge rather than hunt, it's simple energy conservation. IIRC, lions do tend to do more kill-stealing from hyenas than the other way around, it was only discovered recently as hyenas are nocturnal and most of their kills were made at night. By morning the lions had already moved in and forced them off. As for the T-rex, it was a huge, relatively slow predator, adapted to hunting the huge, relatively slow prey that no other predators had the size and strength to bring down. But of course it's still going to prefer something that's already dead or dying to expending the energy stomping down healthy prey, risking injury, exhaustion or a failed hunt.
Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee
User avatar
Akhlut
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2660
Joined: 2005-09-06 02:23pm
Location: The Burger King Bathroom

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Akhlut »

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:Why is everyone so surprised about the claims of scavenging? Almost *any* large carnivore will, if given the choice, scavenge rather than hunt, it's simple energy conservation. IIRC, lions do tend to do more kill-stealing from hyenas than the other way around, it was only discovered recently as hyenas are nocturnal and most of their kills were made at night. By morning the lions had already moved in and forced them off. As for the T-rex, it was a huge, relatively slow predator, adapted to hunting the huge, relatively slow prey that no other predators had the size and strength to bring down. But of course it's still going to prefer something that's already dead or dying to expending the energy stomping down healthy prey, risking injury, exhaustion or a failed hunt.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not disputing that T. rexes scavenged; however, due to their size and their only locomotion being simply walking around, I imagine that they would hunt on a relatively frequent basis unless there were plenty of other predators in their territories that could bring down large enough prey to make scavenging a worthwhile lifestyle, as it is for lions and vultures.
SDNet: Unbelievable levels of pedantry that you can't find anywhere else on the Internet!
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Anguirus »

Elfdart wrote:Can't take it, can you?
You are beginning to cross the line into self-mockery, Elfdart. :lol:
Who gives a shit if it's published in peer-reviewed journals? So was Woo Suk Hwang's quackery.
And how was said quackery discovered, pray tell? It turns out that peer review is very important. It means that unlike Bakker's work, Scannella's and Horner's was reviewed by other leading vertebrate paleontologists.
If only we were discussing amphibians -oh wait! We're not.
We're discussing ontogenetic size variation in vertebrates. This means that it is highly relevant, whether you like it or not. If you could show that some feature of ornithisichian ontogeny precluded this, you might have something. However, nobody knows that much about ornithisichian ontogeny.
I didn't ignore your handwaving; I just didn't let it distract me from the issue at hand.
Nice try. What you are essentially doing is throwing up a Wall of Ignorance when it comes to hearing an actual biologist try to hammer actual facts about ontogenetic size variation into your head.

Now, that MAY OR MAY NOT have happened with Triceratops, but it is becoming increasingly clear that you are unable to refute Scannella and Horner by being a posturing jackass to Alyrium.

ATTN: Alyrium: Don't let Elfdart set the terms of the debate. He got you to accept his premise that "Torosaurus is 5 feet shorter than Triceratops" with his first post. Where is his statistical evidence for this? There are very few Torosaurus specimens compared with the number of Triceratops specimens. Elfdart ought to know that just taking the longest specimens out of each differently-sized group and publishing them as the "length", as popular science websites are wont to do, its hardly scientific evidence...or does he?
Scannella and Horner 2010 wrote:Size alone is not a reliable indicator of ontogenetic stage and there is a strong degree of variation in the timing of cranial fusion in Triceratops (Horner and Goodwin, 2008). For example YPM 1822 is a small skull (154 cm skull length) in which the cranial sutures appear to be fused. However, it is displayed alongside the much larger skull YPM 1821 (187 cm skull length) in which the cranial sutures are open. MOR 2952 is a recently discovered large Triceratops in which the 27 cm long epinasal has yet to fuse to the nasals. Similarly, the large ‘Torosaurus’ MOR 1122 (skull length 255 cm) was discovered with an associated isolated premaxilla that was equivalent in size to its own and yet unfused. BYU 12183 is an extremely large Triceratops skull (estimated skull length 250 cm); unfortunately the areas of the parietal, which may reveal thinning, incipient fenestrae, or textural transitions, are largely reconstructed. Ontogenetic markers (horn core curvature, epoccipital morphology) can be used to group individuals into growth stages, but in ideal situations a combination of factors (including osteohistology, bone texture, sutural fusion, and size) should be considered.
Elfdart wrote:Concession accepted.
Clearly, the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology must be informed that you've employed these witticisms in an argument with a graduate student on the internet. That will turn this appalling situation around. :lol:
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by RedImperator »

Has Horner ever published anything related to the "T-Rex was an exclusive scavenger" hypothesis? I always thought he was more or less trolling the popular press with that one, trying to get people to think differently about dinosaurs. And if he has published, has he ever suggested what was hunting the giant ceratopsians and ornithopods it was supposed to be scavenging?
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Isolder74 »

RedImperator wrote:Has Horner ever published anything related to the "T-Rex was an exclusive scavenger" hypothesis? I always thought he was more or less trolling the popular press with that one, trying to get people to think differently about dinosaurs. And if he has published, has he ever suggested what was hunting the giant ceratopsians and ornithopods it was supposed to be scavenging?
In all the things I've seen(mostly Discovery Channel) and read on the subject from him he seems to be constantly implying but not saying outright that the kills are being made by Raptors. Raptors in the TV shows I've seen him pushing the theory in are what he tends to hold up as what a predatory dinosaur has to be built like in order to be able to make kill effectively. He tends to spend a lot of time emphasizing the small forelimbs of the T-Rex as evidence that it can't hold onto to prey in order to bring it down.

Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Can't take it, can you?
I can take what you can dish out. I just find it amusing that instead of an argument, you insult me.
Bullshit. Hans Kruuk proved decades ago that even the spotted hyena hunts for the vast majority of its meals, from 68% in the Serengeti to 93% in the Ngoronogoro Crater.
34% is still a huge amount of dietary intake from scavenging, or more appropriately, kleptoparsitism.

It is also a good thing for me that Spotted Hyenas are not the only species. The Aardwulf for example feeds primarily on termites, and the brown hyena well... they shit all over your argument.

http://www.predatorconservation.com/brown%20hyena.htm

Brown Hyenas are primarily scavengers, specializing in good old fashioned kill stealing. Kill stealing by hyenas has actually driven to a large extent the social evolution of other pack-hunting carnivores throughout africa,
Evidence please.
You did see walking with dinosaurs did you not?

Eustreptospondylus (sorry, in its own genus) was a 5 meter long jurassic megalosaurid that lived in the tiny islands that were europe at the time. Land dwelling prey was very very scarce, and the most abundant source of food would have been flotsam.
That proves the animals got most or all of their meals by scavenging, right?
Did you learn to read properly in grade school?
Because a predator is worried that a herbivore is going to compete for hunting rights?
Have you ever worked with predators a day in your life? Any predator, even a cat? Sometimes individual animals are pissy, they dont want to be bothered, they get startled by something an act aggressively.
Right, because herbivores are famous for hunting and killing a predator's young. Why, just the other day I saw a gazelle on TV stalking a litter of leopard cubs.
:roll:
Sometimes Water Buffalo will go searching for lion cubs to kill, or will stumble on hidden cubs and very deliberately crush them to death. But of course Elfdart does not know about it, so it must not ever happen :wanker:
If a tyrannosaur can attack and bite a chunk out of the tail of a large duckbill, then it is certainly capable of killing the animal.
I never said it could not kill them. Killing is the easy part. Catching them without killing yourself is the hard part. In order to do that, T Rex would have to hunt in a very particular way. The young ones would either have to work with adults in order to flush game toward said adults, or the option 3 I laid out which you ignored would need to be used. Prey Capture By Endurance Trial. This is not completely unheard of either. African wild dogs run their prey to exhaustion, they just do it at higher speeds.... you know, and actually run. T Rex probably could not actually run. So they walked their prey to exhaustion. There is also a turning problem. In an actual chase, it would have taken T rex several seconds to do a 90 degree turn.
Who gives a shit if it's published in peer-reviewed journals? So was Woo Suk Hwang's quackery.
You sure as fuck better have good justification for that comparison you miserable little shit stain. Or is everyone who disagrees with Elfcocks uninformed lay-person opinion guilty of pseudoscience or data falsification?

Speaking of which, guess who found out Hwang falsified his data? Other scientists.

I also supposed that you agree with global warming denialists and creationists that they dont need to publish in order to do good science. :roll:
If only we were discussing amphibians -oh wait! We're not.
Angurius got to it first:
We're discussing ontogenetic size variation in vertebrates. This means that it is highly relevant, whether you like it or not. If you could show that some feature of ornithisichian ontogeny precluded this, you might have something. However, nobody knows that much about ornithisichian ontogeny.

...
I didn't ignore your handwaving; I just didn't let it distract me from the issue at hand.
So tell me, is there something magic about the development of any species that would preclude this? Of course, Horner's paper already addresses this issue, as Angurius already pointed out:
Size alone is not a reliable indicator of ontogenetic stage and there is a strong degree of variation in the timing of cranial fusion in Triceratops (Horner and Goodwin, 2008). For example YPM 1822 is a small skull (154 cm skull length) in which the cranial sutures appear to be fused. However, it is displayed alongside the much larger skull YPM 1821 (187 cm skull length) in which the cranial sutures are open. MOR 2952 is a recently discovered large Triceratops in which the 27 cm long epinasal has yet to fuse to the nasals. Similarly, the large ‘Torosaurus’ MOR 1122 (skull length 255 cm) was discovered with an associated isolated premaxilla that was equivalent in size to its own and yet unfused. BYU 12183 is an extremely large Triceratops skull (estimated skull length 250 cm); unfortunately the areas of the parietal, which may reveal thinning, incipient fenestrae, or textural transitions, are largely reconstructed. Ontogenetic markers (horn core curvature, epoccipital morphology) can be used to group individuals into growth stages, but in ideal situations a combination of factors (including osteohistology, bone texture, sutural fusion, and size) should be considered.
Size, does not tell you if something is an adult or not. Development does.

Talking about variation in the size of animals is not hand waving. If I took a sample of 300 juvenile persons and compared them to a sample of adult persons, depending on a lot of factors, I can get an average size (or maximum size) of the juveniles that is greater than that of adults. This would depend on locality of the specimens, genetic background, nutrition etc. Fossilization does not give you a representative sample that can be used for the easy generation of demographic data such as . The deaths must happen in particular places under specific conditions.

Where is it that you are getting your length data anyway? What evidence exactly do you have that Torosaurus is in fact shorter? Do you have a comprehensive list of all specimens known and their sizes, along with the time period in which they were measured? Do you have evidence that these specimens are a representative sample of the population? Have statistical tests been done showing that there is a significant differwence in the size ranges of Triceratops relative to Torosaurus? You need all of that before any scientist will actually accept your claim. Until then, you have Jack and Shit.

Just as I thought: you can't do it.

Concession accepted.
Because no modern vertebrate does it, is not an indication that it has not been done in the past. Here is a clue for you. Modern large vertebrates, with the exception of crocodiles are very very different from dinosaurs. They are not even in the same general reptilian lineage. Dinosaurs were diapsids. Mammals are synapsids, this split is ancient and predates all extant reptilian groups. Each group operates on a different set of developmental and genetic constraints that in mammals seems to preclude this sort of dramatic bone reshaping. Reptiles, or at least their particular diapsid lineage may not. If you want an example of an animal closely related to T rex that does things like lose body parts as it ages and otherwise shifts around in its morphology rather dramatically, I will point you toward the Hoatzin (Opisthocomus hoazin). A south american bird that hatches with wing claws, and looses them as it ages. They reshape during maturation into the typical forearm structure of modern birds:

Image
By the way jackass, citing the exception (kids who are taller than their parents) to the rule (kids being the same size as their parents or smaller) is pathetic. No human shrinks from six feet tall to five feet tall while his head increases by a third.
Not hardly, with the sample sizes we have, it is entirely possible that our triceratops fossils are biased toward larger individuals, or torosaurus to smaller ones, either because of locality, or chance. the later is very likely for torosaurus because of a very limited sample size. Also, your argument makes no sense. We do not have, by definition, two skeletons from the same individual-which is what your argument requires. We are not talking about an animal that shrinks--unless you think that all trikes were a uniform size. We are talking about a population of animals, where each individual reaches a different adult size. Even within the same population, not even considering parentage, there will be juveniles significantly larger than some of the adults. If we have a representative sample of juveniles, and a sample that is in any way biased toward smaller individuals for adults, we will get the pattern you claim exists in the fossil record for Triceratops with respect to Torosaurus.

Do you have any evidence that the null hypothesis needs to be rejected, or are you, as usual, talking out of your ass from a position of very passionate ignorance?
Humans don't develop secondary sex characteristics as kids, only to lose them as they become adults unless they're afflicted with some rare disorder. In fact, no animal does such a thing because it's not an adaptation that would survive for long.
This just proves that your reading comprehension is poor.

Here, let me show you two skulls:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... enberg.jpg

This is a triceratops skull. You will notice the short frill.

Image

This is a Torosaurus skeleton. Notice the skull, and the fenestrated frill. The fenestration lightens the frill, making it easier to carry around. This very large frill is a much more effective display piece than a shorter one. The animal did not lose any form of secondary sex characteristic, which is not what this is in the first place. As far as anyone can tell, both sexes possess one. It is a signaling device. It may signal social status, reproductive status any number of things. Hell, it may just intimidate predators. Either way, the animal lost nothing. It simply lightened the load.

Now sit down and shut up with the other ignorant plebs.
Just a bit of a nitpick, but from what I've heard, hyenas are actually competent hunters and live more on their own hunts than on scavenging.
When you specify spotted hyenas, yes.

There are however other species.
Isn't that true of a lot of their prey species as well, though? An anatotitan, being over 40 feet long and weighing as much or more than T. rex is pretty screwed if it trips, too, and since it is likely that a T. rex would be chasing a herd, it can go slower and wait for some prey to trip and break one of its legs and then kill the anatotitan.
Hence foraging scenario number three above.
As for the T-rex, it was a huge, relatively slow predator, adapted to hunting the huge, relatively slow prey that no other predators had the size and strength to bring down.
A pack of the various species of raptor can easily bring down large prey... and apparently at least some of them did it from the trees. An ornithophobe's nightmare...
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not disputing that T. rexes scavenged; however, due to their size and their only locomotion being simply walking around, I imagine that they would hunt on a relatively frequent basis unless there were plenty of other predators in their territories that could bring down large enough prey to make scavenging a worthwhile lifestyle, as it is for lions and vultures.
Raptors. I am telling you... Imagine a big solitary male lion. They do the same thing to Hyenas, Cheetah, Leopard etc that a scavenger T Rex would have done. Barge in on a kill and use their superior size to intimidate other predators off of their kills.
Has Horner ever published anything related to the "T-Rex was an exclusive scavenger" hypothesis?
Yes.

Horner, J.R. (1994). "Steak knives, beady eyes, and tiny little arms (a portrait of Tyrannosaurus as a scavenger)". The Paleontological Society Special Publication 7: 157–164.

That is just one. There have been a few. My database access seems to be down at the moment.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Elfdart »

Anguirus wrote:
If only we were discussing amphibians -oh wait! We're not.
We're discussing ontogenetic size variation in vertebrates. This means that it is highly relevant, whether you like it or not. If you could show that some feature of ornithisichian ontogeny precluded this, you might have something. However, nobody knows that much about ornithisichian ontogeny.
Nice wall of ignorance. Translation: "We don't know that much about dinosaurs so let's just ignore parsimony and start making shit up."

Are the growth stages of large land animals anything like those of amphibians? Do they go through an aquatic stage, sprout legs and shed their tails? No, no, no and no.

ATTN: Alyrium: Don't let Elfdart set the terms of the debate. He got you to accept his premise that "Torosaurus is 5 feet shorter than Triceratops" with his first post. Where is his statistical evidence for this?
From The Dinosaur Encyclopedia by Don Lessem:
page 483 wrote:Torosaurus

Type Species: latus

Size: 6.2 meters (21 feet) long
page 486 wrote:
Triceratops

Type Species: horridus

Size: At least 8 meters (25 feet) long
You were saying?
Image
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

You were saying?
So you think that they are all a uniform size. Gotcha.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Wing Commander MAD
Jedi Knight
Posts: 665
Joined: 2005-05-22 10:10pm
Location: Western Pennsylvania

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

Ah, yes I remember hearing about this in the past, I believe either directly before or after they presented the paper. Maybe a mod should consider changing the thread title. IIRC naming conventions specify that torosaurus should be dispensed with since it was described second and is far less common/known in everyday use, whereas triceratops is easily one of the five most recognizable dinosaurs to the average person.

Anguirus, if it wouldn't be a problem I'd certainly not mind a copy. I'll PM you my e-mail address if it's not a problem.

Once again I am forced to wander how my life would be different if I'd pursued my early childhood dreams of paleontology instead of my later computer game development dreams via CompSci, well other than the fact that I'd be in grad school now instead of trying to find an entry level position as a programmer. Damn OCD. :finger:
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Elfdart »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Bullshit. Hans Kruuk proved decades ago that even the spotted hyena hunts for the vast majority of its meals, from 68% in the Serengeti to 93% in the Ngoronogoro Crater.
34% is still a huge amount of dietary intake from scavenging, or more appropriately, kleptoparsitism.
I point out that carnivores have to hunt for most of their food and you come back with this (by the way, when you subtracted 68% from 100%, you ended up with 34%?)?
It is also a good thing for me that Spotted Hyenas are not the only species. The Aardwulf for example feeds primarily on termites, and the brown hyena well... they shit all over your argument.
Insects are animals, fucktard -so finding and eating them counts as predation. Congratulations on finding one medium-to-large animal that gets most of its food by scavenging: the brown hyena, an animal that is (a) an omnivore, eating fruit, eggs and garbage along with carrion and small animals and (b) rare and confined mostly to areas where other predators are rare or non-existent.
Evidence please.
You did see walking with dinosaurs did you not?

Eustreptospondylus (sorry, in its own genus) was a 5 meter long jurassic megalosaurid that lived in the tiny islands that were europe at the time. Land dwelling prey was very very scarce, and the most abundant source of food would have been flotsam.
I also watched The Flintstones. Guess what, moron: it's not very accurate at depicting prehistoric animals either. First of all Eustreptospondylus is not an allosaur. Second, the fact that a predator might look for easy meals at the beach doesn't mean it's more of a scavenger than a hunter. National Geographic showed a documentary about a pair of wolves in Spain that ate a dead dolphin at the beach. I guess the deer, pigs and rabbits of Spain must have been relieved. Third, this is the same Walking with Dinosaurs show where Eustreptospondylus is eaten by a Liopleurodon several times larger than the largest specimen, right? You know, the one where the producers copied footage of a killer whale rolling up on the beach to grab a seal because they thought it was a kewl shot. I'm surprised the animal wasn't dressed like a ninja.

What's really funny is that you would cite the series as a credible source for the idea that tyrannosaurs were mostly scavengers when the series shows scenes like this one:



Sometimes Water Buffalo will go searching for lion cubs to kill, or will stumble on hidden cubs and very deliberately crush them to death. But of course Elfdart does not know about it, so it must not ever happen :wanker:
You will provide evidence that water buffalo actively hunt down lion cubs, right?

Who gives a shit if it's published in peer-reviewed journals? So was Woo Suk Hwang's quackery.
You sure as fuck better have good justification for that comparison you miserable little shit stain.
Awwww, did someone just get sand in his pussy? :lol:

Or is everyone who disagrees with Elfcocks uninformed lay-person opinion guilty of pseudoscience or data falsification?
Publishing something in a peer-reviewed journal doesn't make it fact, asshole. When someone has a track record of bullshitting, they don't get a free pass just because they got something printed in a journal.
Speaking of which, guess who found out Hwang falsified his data? Other scientists.
How does that change the fact that he got his bullshit published in a peer-reviewed journal? Oh that's right, it doesn't.

Back on subject: There is one way the Horner-Scanella theory might hold water. Torosaurus wouldn't represent adult Triceratops in general, but adult male Triceratops in particular. The size discrepancy would be explained by sexual dimorphism: females on average might have been larger than males, but less ornately decorated. The lack of Torosaur fossils might be explained by the exclusion of all adult males from the herd except for the one bull/stag/stallion who claims the herd and chases away all others. Most of the fossil sites in the Rockies are the result of prehistoric stampedes and/or flooding. One healthy adult male who stands apart from his herd to ward off rivals and predators would be less likely to be killed in such an accident and fossilized.
Image
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Anguirus »

Anguirus, if it wouldn't be a problem I'd certainly not mind a copy. I'll PM you my e-mail address if it's not a problem.
Go right ahead!
Nice wall of ignorance. Translation: "We don't know that much about dinosaurs so let's just ignore parsimony and start making shit up."

Are the growth stages of large land animals anything like those of amphibians? Do they go through an aquatic stage, sprout legs and shed their tails? No, no, no and no.
Nobody is making anything up. Would you like a copy of the paper as well? Horner made his argument that there are bone markers that indicate a continuum of growth from no fenestrae to fenestrae.

At any rate, we don't need to make the argument that amniotes can shrink during development because you have failed to provide convincing evidence that Torosaurus is larger than Triceratops. To explain:
From The Dinosaur Encyclopedia by Don Lessem:
Popular science book. That's not statistical evidence at all. A scientist wrote it, yes, but for the lay public. Note that the numbers that you give aren't maximum sizes, or average sizes. Triceratops is given a minimum size that is actually quite large, with no justification. Check out comments here. I'm sure that Toro is given an absolute size there due to scarcity of confirmed remains.

Do you understand why this fails to convince me and Alyrium? I've been looking for good Internet sources on ceratopsian length and I just am not finding any. At the page above it's suggested that Horner concentrates on head lengths just because the ceratopsian bodies are 1) very rare and 2) completely indistinguishable without a close association with a head.

I mean, do you really think that actual professional vertebrate paleontologists let something totally bogus slip through because they forgot to check Don Lessem's Dinosaur Encyclopedia?
Back on subject: There is one way the Horner-Scanella theory might hold water. Torosaurus wouldn't represent adult Triceratops in general, but adult male Triceratops in particular. The size discrepancy would be explained by sexual dimorphism: females on average might have been larger than males, but less ornately decorated. The lack of Torosaur fossils might be explained by the exclusion of all adult males from the herd except for the one bull/stag/stallion who claims the herd and chases away all others. Most of the fossil sites in the Rockies are the result of prehistoric stampedes and/or flooding. One healthy adult male who stands apart from his herd to ward off rivals and predators would be less likely to be killed in such an accident and fossilized.
That's a cool idea! Would be a challenge to test though...

Here's their take on sexual dimorphism:
Scanella and Horner wrote:Ostrom and Wellnhofer (1990) suggested that the differences in frill morphology that distinguish ‘Torosaurus’ from Triceratops may be the result of sexual dimorphism in a single genus. The predictable nature of parietal thinning throughout ontogeny in Triceratops, the osteohistological evidence for greater maturity in ‘Torosaurus’ specimens, and the lack of strong evidence for sexual dimorphism in non-avian dinosaurs (Padian et al., 2004; Goodwin et al., 2006) argues against this proposal. Sexual dimorphism accounting for differences in size cannot be ruled out at
this time.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I point out that carnivores have to hunt for most of their food and you come back with this (by the way, when you subtracted 68% from 100%, you ended up with 34%?)?
I am sure you will forgive the typo, should be 32. Considering that spotted hyenas have driven the social evolution of most other carnivores in the region, yeah. They may not be specialists, but they do in fact make their living from scavenging, without that 32% they would die.
Insects are animals, fucktard -so finding and eating them counts as predation. Congratulations on finding one medium-to-large animal that gets most of its food by scavenging: the brown hyena, an animal that is (a) an omnivore, eating fruit, eggs and garbage along with carrion and small animals and (b) rare and confined mostly to areas where other predators are rare or non-existent.
Yes, it does. However you are sitting there bitching about what? That a T rex would not be able to find enough to scavenge or engage in my new favorite word-kleptoparasitism? You want this based on comparisons to modern vertebrates. Well guess what shit head, there are stranger things (like a termite eating Hyena, if you think it is hard finding enough food from scavenging, try getting a meal out of a termite colony. I know, I have done it. Not easy and I used tools... Well, not a meal, but I have had to open up termite colonies and collect them for research before). Not only that but comparisons to modern mammals are not at all valid. No. Not one bit, for the reasons I laid out. The two groups, dinosaurs and mammals are WAAAAY the fuck different. They are different phylogenetically, morphologically, and ecologically. They operate under different sets of constraints and different sets of rules. If you want a valid comparison, one with regard to a closely related taxonomic group? Try vultures. Or maybe crocodiles. Yes, birds and crocodiles are eachother's closest extant relatives.

As for the brown Hyena, I did exactly as you requested. Thou Shalt Not Shift Thine Goal Posts. I realize you have an obsessive compulsive desire to rearrange things that is worse than a gay guy on meth, but you really not to stop. Consider this your intervention.
First of all Eustreptospondylus is not an allosaur.
I realize that, I made an error in the first post. I even corrected myself in the second by noting it was in its own group. Forgive me, I m not a paleosystematist. I would hate to have their job.

Of course, if you actually read rather than breaking your own nose when face-fucking yourself, you would have noticed the mae culpa. Unlike some people, i admit my mistakes.
Second, the fact that a predator might look for easy meals at the beach doesn't mean it's more of a scavenger than a hunter.
Have you ever wondered why large predators on small islands are rare? It is because there is no food, dipshit. Even reticulated pythons on small islands have a hard enough time that they had to evolve dwarfism. How do you think a megalosaurid on a small island would do? I will give you a hint. It will become 5-7 meters long and be a scavenger. Dinosaurs large enough to provide a good meal are rare in that particular strata. What is the most abundant food source? Carrion from marine reptiles, stranded turtles and the odd pterosaur.

Also, comparing walking with dinosaurs to the flintstones. Wow. I thought your intellectual dishonesty had reached its bounds.
National Geographic showed a documentary about a pair of wolves in Spain that ate a dead dolphin at the beach. I guess the deer, pigs and rabbits of Spain must have been relieved.


Wow, I was unaware that spain is a small island. Is this a geologically recent development?
What's really funny is that you would cite the series as a credible source for the idea that tyrannosaurs were mostly scavengers when the series shows scenes like this one:
I used it as a reference for the species, only. The location of the fossil, marine strata near Oxford, the geology of the time period, and its size indicating dwarfism are all I really need to be able to say what it more than likely is-which frankly is all any paleontologist ever has unless they find wound markings or one specimen inside another (which has happened, though with live birth in Ichthyosaurs). An opportunistic carnivore that got most of its food washed up on the beaches of small islands is all it could actually be. Unless someone finds little Dwarf Sauropods or something.


You will provide evidence that water buffalo actively hunt down lion cubs, right?
Yep. Including footage.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448983/bu ... ack_lions/
Awwww, did someone just get sand in his pussy? :lol:
Mockery is not a substitute for evidence on this board. Considering the gravity of falsifying data in the scientific community, you sure as fuck better have justification. If you would like the paper, I can send it to you.
Publishing something in a peer-reviewed journal doesn't make it fact, asshole. When someone has a track record of bullshitting, they don't get a free pass just because they got something printed in a journal.
You have not established this track record. Horner has a very very good reputation among paleontologists for a reason.
Back on subject: There is one way the Horner-Scanella theory might hold water. Torosaurus wouldn't represent adult Triceratops in general, but adult male Triceratops in particular. The size discrepancy would be explained by sexual dimorphism: females on average might have been larger than males, but less ornately decorated. The lack of Torosaur fossils might be explained by the exclusion of all adult males from the herd except for the one bull/stag/stallion who claims the herd and chases away all others. Most of the fossil sites in the Rockies are the result of prehistoric stampedes and/or flooding. One healthy adult male who stands apart from his herd to ward off rivals and predators would be less likely to be killed in such an accident and fossilized.
Horner delt with that. Now, are you going to address the rest of my argument, or simply ignore that which you cannot answer? Shall I consider the point conceded?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Triceratops is a baby Torosaurus?

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

But would there be enough seaside beach corpses to sustain those island Allosauruses, though? I find it odd that they couldn't prey on other creatures on their island. If that island is big enough to support them, then certainly it's big enough to support some eatable herbivores. Like how komodo dragons have water buffalo to eats.
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Post Reply